Conrad Murray Trial - Closing Arguments 11-3-11

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oceanblueeyes said:
Well I am shocked.:waitasec:

Involuntary manslaughter does not have to have a motive because it isn't an intentional act but Beth just said that the jury instructions will have that the jury can consider lack of motive.

WTH????????????????????:banghead:
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I was a little surprised at that as well. I have full confidence, though, that Walgren will take care of that in his closing argument. Of course there was no motive, this isn't intentional. It's involuntary. Involuntary by its definition suggests there is no motive. He can give a few analogies to dissuade the jury from going down that path. I'd be insulted if I were a juror and the defense tried to suggest since there was no motive, he was not liable in any way.
 
peace9274 said:
And if it's Flanagan, he'll drag out his sentences, with long pauses between each word,
re-phrase each comment, start over, move hands & arms around... :maddening:
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Hopefully when the jurors start nodding off, the judge will give some sort of waving of the white flag to let Flanagan or Chernoff know he's lost them and time to stop talking just to hear his own voice.
 
Talina said:
I was a little surprised at that as well. I have full confidence, though, that Walgren will take care of that in his closing argument. Of course there was no motive, this isn't intentional. It's involuntary. Involuntary by its definition suggests there is no motive. He can give a few analogies to dissuade the jury from going down that path. I'd be insulted if I were a juror and the defense tried to suggest since there was no motive, he was not liable in any way.
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I also hope the DT doesn't minimize CM's gross negligence by saying it, MJ's death, was accidental...
and to go easy on him because accidents can happen to anyone, blah blah blah!

BTW: Who's on first?
 
Talina said:
Hopefully when the jurors start nodding off, the judge will give some sort of waving of the white flag to let Flanagan or Chernoff know he's lost them and time to stop talking just to hear his own voice.
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Is there someone to wave the white flag if the judge nods off?
 
peace9274 said:
Is there someone to wave the white flag if the judge nods off?
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:floorlaugh: Hopefully the deputy that takes care of the technology in the court room has something in place to wake him up. ha!

Judge Pastor said earlier in the trial that the deputy (can't remember his name right now) sets things up in the court room so that he is needed. :great: :floorlaugh:
 
Thanks to those of you posting anything important or interesting
that is on InSessions, before it comes on here at 9:00 am (PST)

At 8:00 am PST, HLN has talking heads covering, but it's
mainly just repeat videos of the previous court day.

I love hearing what Beth Karas has to say. She speaks calmly,
with just the facts, & without being loud & theatrical... (or hysterical, like some of the others).

I always loved hearing her court reports at breaks & at the end of the day,
during the Lacy Peterson Trial... especially since it was not televised.

Those were sure GRRRRRRRR days, not being able to watch it.
 
oceanblueeyes said:
Well I am shocked.:waitasec:

Involuntary manslaughter does not have to have a motive because it isn't an intentional act but Beth just said that the jury instructions will have that the jury can consider lack of motive.

WTH????????????????????:banghead:
Click to expand...

I agree, but if Murray left the propofol in reach of Michael that would be negligent and not necessarily intentional. His mind was not on the job at hand, but on other things as evidenced by cell phone records. This wouldn't imply motive, but unsafe practice aka negligence.
 
peace9274 said:
I also hope the DT doesn't minimize CM's gross negligence by saying it, MJ's death, was accidental...
and to go easy on him because accidents can happen to anyone, blah blah blah!

BTW: Who's on first?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately accidents that happen when licensed medical personnel are involved in care are really not forgivable. We always walk the tight wire!
 
On InSessions right now they are saying that typically jury instructions are read prior to closing arguments.

ETA: they were talking about specifically in California that this is the practice
 
Once in a great while, a medical professional gets away with being negligent,
even when it has (unintentionally) harmed the patient.

But in this case, CM has many... how many is it?... violations against the
standard practice when caring for a patient.

IMO, CM's actions (AKA violations) were intentional,
because he's lazy and wanted time for his own personal
activities (sleeping, phone calls) while caring for MJ.
 
Talina said:
On InSessions right now they are saying that typically jury instructions are read prior to closing arguments.
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How long will that take, I wonder?

Well I love to hear Judge Pastor speak so the jury instructions will be perfectly clear when he reads it to them.

They will also be given a copy to take with them into deliberations.

IMO
 
I only try civil cases, but I always go through the verdict form and tell the jury how to answer the questions (after I've explained the evidence that will lead them to that answer in great detail). Of course, our verdict forms tend to be much longer, and have lots of stuff for the jurors to fill in (like $$ amounts). FWIW
 
Isabelle said:
Unfortunately accidents that happen when licensed medical personnel are involved in care are really not forgivable. We always walk the tight wire!
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Yes, I agree, but we've all seen those shoddy ones that do
something and then try to "CYA". And it disgusts the rest of us!
 
peace9274 said:
Once in a great while, a medical professional gets away with being negligent,
even when it has (unintentionally) harmed the patient.

But in this case, CM has many... how many is it?... violations against the
standard practice when caring for a patient.

IMO, CM's actions (AKA violations) were intentional,
because he's lazy and wanted time for his own personal
activities (sleeping, phone calls) while caring for MJ.
Click to expand...

I got very upset when Dr. White referred to the standards of care as the "gold standard" which doctors should aim to achieve. I think of the TV program MASH, where the doctors struggled under the most adverse of conditions. I could understand where they wouldn't reach the "gold standard" of care.

Come to think of it, MJ's bedroom sort of reminded me of a gilded MASH tent.

I hope we hear some about this in Walgren's closing.
 
I wanted to say thank you to everyone who has watched this trial and kept those of us who couldn't informed. Talina, you did an excellent job! And thanks to peace and Isabelle for their excellent nursing knowledge!:rocker::rocker::rocker:

I think we will probably have a guilty verdict by tomorrow afternoon at the latest, if the closing arguments don't last forever.

Kind of O/T, but next week I'm undergoing surgery to remove at least six kidney stones, and now I'm nervous about being put under after following this trial. I forgot to ask my doctor yesterday if they would be using propofol to put me under. I will make sure I ask when I go to check in for surgery next week though! This will be my fifth stone removal surgery, but I've never been this nervous about it! LOL
 
Talina said:
Jean Casaras on IS now giving her opinion of what she thinks the defense will argue their closing statement. Someone needs to remind her what she says is not at all any evidence brought out in the trial. Isn't the rule that OS are free game but Closings Arguments can only include evidence that was brought out in trial?

I so much prefer listening to Beth Karas over Jean. Jean has gotten to where she is more tabloid reporting that fact in many instances (eg where she sits outside waiting on the arrival of the Jackson family members, Paris Hilton, etc. just silly). IMO
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Good morning all :)

What did she say? I missed it

IMO I believe Chernoff is going to tie in the testimony from the 911 call (cell phone calls to 911 do not give a correct location); greatly exaggerate access to the gate of MJ's home; claim that Alvarez lied; that Fleak lied, that the surveillance cameras did not capture who else could have entered the home; that MJ self-injected, took lorazepam pills and was a drug addict and of course what a great, caring doctor he was who chose to serve a poor community. I also expect him to be all over the place and repetitive.
 
Tezi, I hope your procedure goes well. Fingers crossed and good vibes going your way.
 
tezi said:
I wanted to say thank you to everyone who has watched this trial and kept those of us who couldn't informed. Talina, you did an excellent job! And thanks to peace and Isabella for their excellent nursing knowledge!:rocker::rocker::rocker:

I think we will probably have a guilty verdict by tomorrow afternoon at the latest, if the closing arguments don't last forever.

Kind of O/T, but next week I'm undergoing surgery to remove at least six kidney stones, and now I'm nervous about being put under after following this trial. I forgot to ask my doctor yesterday if they would be using propofol to put me under. I will make sure I ask when I go to check in for surgery next week though! This will be my fifth stone removal surgery, but I've never been this nervous about it! LOL
Click to expand...

Tezi you will be fine under anesthesia as long as you do not hire Dr. Murray. Prayers and warm thoughts for a successful surgery. :)
 
tezi said:
I wanted to say thank you to everyone who has watched this trial and kept those of us who couldn't informed. Talina, you did an excellent job! And thanks to peace and Isabella for their excellent nursing knowledge!:rocker::rocker::rocker:

I think we will probably have a guilty verdict by tomorrow afternoon at the latest, if the closing arguments don't last forever.

Kind of O/T, but next week I'm undergoing surgery to remove at least six kidney stones, and now I'm nervous about being put under after following this trial. I forgot to ask my doctor yesterday if they would be using propofol to put me under. I will make sure I ask when I go to check in for surgery next week though! This will be my fifth stone removal surgery, but I've never been this nervous about it! LOL
Click to expand...

I hope your surgery goes very well tezi.

I don't think you have one thing to worry about. Even if they use propofol they will be there monitoring you constantly. Propofol is really a very safe drug when administered correctly.

I don't think there is another doctor out there that would do it so recklessly like CM.

IMO
 
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