Who hurt this case the most?

Squishified said:

Forgive me if I am wrong, but wasn't FW's daughter once "missing" and he found her hiding in the basement? That's why I thought he checked out the R's basement first.

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yeah but he already knew there is a RN so JB definitely wasn't playing games and hiding. so many people went down there yet nobody found her.irony or just mistakes?or was JB's body placed somewhere else and then moved?dunno.

madeleine said:

yeah but he already knew there is a RN so JB definitely wasn't playing games and hiding. so many people went down there yet nobody found her.irony or just mistakes?or was JB's body placed somewhere else and then moved?dunno.

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Even with a ransom note, if I were FW, I would start searching the house for JBR anyway. I think he felt like he had to do SOMETHING to help his friends. Also, FW was awakened early that morning and was probably not thinking as logically as he normally would. He may have also felt that the RN was some sort of trick being played by BR and JBR.
As for whether JB was moved to the wine cellar--that's the million dollar question. Wish I knew....

Squishified said:

Even with a ransom note, if I were FW, I would start searching the house for JBR anyway. I think he felt like he had to do SOMETHING to help his friends. Also, FW was awakened early that morning and was probably not thinking as logically as he normally would. He may have also felt that the RN was some sort of trick being played by BR and JBR.
As for whether JB was moved to the wine cellar--that's the million dollar question. Wish I knew....

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I can't imagine anyone thinking that note was written by a 6 year old and 9 year old. The language alone just doesn't lend itself to grade school linguistics.
But yes, I am sure at that time he felt he had to do something, and searching the house would be something that anyone in his position might do.

DeeDee249 said:

I can't imagine anyone thinking that note was written by a 6 year old and 9 year old. The language alone just doesn't lend itself to grade school linguistics.
But yes, I am sure at that time he felt he had to do something, and searching the house would be something that anyone in his position might do.

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Oh, I agree that the note was too "adult-like" to be written by a 9 and 6 yr. old.
I'm just putting myself in FW's shoes that morning. I imagine he would feel panicked and confused. He was probably hoping against hope that the note was a hoax or a cruel joke. At least that's the way I would feel.

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madeleine said:

IIRC according to the bonita papers,he told LE a different version than JR re how JB's position down in the basement (when they found her) and thats when LE started to have suspicions re JR's statement

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madeleine,
Thanks for the info. Yet Fleet White had his suspicions almost immediately, since he went back down to the wine-cellar.

He must have seen the pink barbie nightgown the barbie doll and the blanket lying on the floor. I'll bet he thought: How did I miss all that earlier today?

What else is there for Fleet White to question. He cannot know anything about the staging. John Ramsey is yet to make his statement, JonBenet's body is now upstairs, so all that is left is much of what we know about? The only other possibility is that there is redacted evidence, something else was in the wine-cellar and Fleet White has been told to keep quiet?


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UKGuy said:

madeleine,
Thanks for the info. Yet Fleet White had his suspicions almost immediately, since he went back down to the wine-cellar.

He must have seen the pink barbie nightgown the barbie doll and the blanket lying on the floor. I'll bet he thought: How did I miss all that earlier today?

What else is there for Fleet White to question. He cannot know anything about the staging. John Ramsey is yet to make his statement, JonBenet's body is now upstairs, so all that is left is much of what we know about? The only other possibility is that there is redacted evidence, something else was in the wine-cellar and Fleet White has been told to keep quiet?


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Is the information on exactly what FW told LE available? I'd like to know how his version differed from JR's.
Under the stress of the moment, it isn't hard to imagine FW (or anyone) looking into the room for JB and not noticing all that was there. If JB wasn't there, the white blanket/pink nightie wasn't there, and as I said, the Barbie doll was a few feet away. That room was shaped like an "L". Looking in from the doorway, you'd have to step INTO the room to the left to be in the spot where the body was later found. I do not believe FW stepped into the room.
There may very well be redacted evidence, and I doubt FW would keep quiet just because he was told to. There had to be a threat of a lawsuit or some threat that they might push to throw the blame on him, as JR and Patsy tried to do early on.

DeeDee249 said:

Is the information on exactly what FW told LE available? I'd like to know how his version differed from JR's.
Under the stress of the moment, it isn't hard to imagine FW (or anyone) looking into the room for JB and not noticing all that was there. If JB wasn't there, the white blanket/pink nightie wasn't there, and as I said, the Barbie doll was a few feet away. That room was shaped like an "L". Looking in from the doorway, you'd have to step INTO the room to the left to be in the spot where the body was later found. I do not believe FW stepped into the room.
There may very well be redacted evidence, and I doubt FW would keep quiet just because he was told to. There had to be a threat of a lawsuit or some threat that they might push to throw the blame on him, as JR and Patsy tried to do early on.

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DeeDee249,
The only factor that causes me to doubt Fleet White's version of events are the opened gifts.

Without these I would have published my theory in the Member's Theories thread a long time ago.

In this case both IDI and RDI minimize forensic evidence to suit the prevailing theory, yet evidence is evidence it does not fall off trees whenever a homicide occurs.

I do not believe FW stepped into the room.

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Maybe not, but did he need to? The point in question is would all the debri arising from JonBenet's death, e.g. blanket, nightgown, Christmas gifts, and dolls, strewn on the floor, be visible?

I have moved away from considering the wine-cellar as a carefully staged crime-scene to that of a disorganized one. If JonBenet was intended to be left in the wine-cellar then I think this was very much a last minute decision.

Although speculative it is not impossible that JonBenet was hidden elsewhere and that John Ramsey relocated her body and artifacts into the wine-cellar later that morning, after all, he did lead FW directly to her body, but FW had already looked in there and seen nothing?

On three occassions that day, Fleet White was able to observe the contents of the wine-cellar, no other witness has his pedigree. Its alike a Columbo thriller, the dramatic irony is dripping from the storyline, yet his testimony is diminished.

I doubt FW would keep quiet just because he was told to.

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Litigation would not bother Fleet White he is a wealthy man, in court the fact John Ramsey entrusted his son to him, would play against any Team Ramsey allegations.

What we do not know is why FW returned to the wine-cellar despite being told not to. I reckon he could not believe what he had just seen. Possibly for reasons you outline above. Then again he may have been certain about what he saw earlier that morning. Maybe he saw the opened Christmas gifts, but no JonBenet?

I am afraid with dolls, blood-stained barbie nightgown, and opened Christmas gifts lying about, Fleet White should have observed something?


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UKGuy said:

What we do not know is why FW returned to the wine-cellar despite being told not to.

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But IIRC it was Linda Arndt who sent him back to guard(I still consider this has been a really stupid move!) the wine-cellar?Guard it from WHOM?weren't at that point ALL people suspects?she should have kept all people together UPSTAIRS until back-up arrived.IMO no matter how valuable FW's testimony is everything was screwed up from the start by LA's decision to send him back down there.MAYBE all his intentions were good(even if I don't like him touching the tape,removing glass,moving the suitcase,etc at all) but he lost credibility because of her decision IMO.

Well, I've pretty much just started to read ST's book, and even though I'm shocked at how stupid and sloppy the local cops were, I'm far more disgusted with the DA's office.

Actually, I'm horrified.

madeleine said:

But IIRC it was Linda Arndt who sent him back to guard(I still consider this has been a really stupid move!) the wine-cellar?Guard it from WHOM?weren't at that point ALL people suspects?she should have kept all people together UPSTAIRS until back-up arrived.IMO no matter how valuable FW's testimony is everything was screwed up from the start by LA's decision to send him back down there.MAYBE all his intentions were good(even if I don't like him touching the tape,removing glass,moving the suitcase,etc at all) but he lost credibility because of her decision IMO.

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madeleine,

But IIRC it was Linda Arndt who sent him back to guard

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Your recollection does not match the account told in Steve Thomas' book. Fleet White more or less returned immediately to the wine-cellar, such is the import I regard his testimony.

Also Fleet and Priscilla White were interviewed the following day by the prescient Team Ramsey Private Investigators and Attorneys, hows that for organization, the DA was still on the phone to Santa!

The crime-scene was fabricated, the evidence may have been fabricated and the Ramsey response may have been fabricated. John Ramsey is reported, accurately, to have been missing for about 1 hour minimum, maybe more, when next seen he was agitated and nervous. I reckon John Ramsey may have relocated JonBenet.

Fleet White is the best witness this case has since he observed the alleged crime-scene on three occassions, critically early in the morning, to diminish his testimony is to indulge in theory preference.



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Alix said:

Well, I've pretty much just started to read ST's book, and even though I'm shocked at how stupid and sloppy the local cops were, I'm far more disgusted with the DA's office.

Actually, I'm horrified.

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Alix,
be prepared for apopolexy, well hopefully not. I reckon the catalog of mistakes are deliberate. Why was Detective Arndt denied direct communication with BPD, answers on a postcard to SuperDave who will tell us the answers in his upcoming blockbuster JonBenet book.

UKGuy said:

Alix,
be prepared for apopolexy, well hopefully not. I reckon the catalog of mistakes are deliberate. Why was Detective Arndt denied direct communication with BPD, answers on a postcard to SuperDave who will tell us the answers in his upcoming blockbuster JonBenet book.

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I think you give me too much credit, UKGuy.

UKGuy said:

FairM,
Some of my questions are intended to be rhetorical.


On another thread so said you had done all the research and read all the books? Duh!

JR went missing for about an hour that morning. His movements are unaccounted for.



You seem to be making stuff up. If John moves JonBenet into the wine-cellar, of course he knows where to find her, as he did!

And the objects, well maybe thats what Fleet White knows were not present when he looked in there earlier in the day, never mind JonBenet wrapped in a white blanket.


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why are you accusing me of making stuff up? you have misunderstood my point , the point is John didnt know he would be the one to find her, if the police had done their job properly they would have found her not him and he wouldnt have had the missing hour either.

UKGuy said:

madeleine,

Your recollection does not match the account told in Steve Thomas' book.


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ST's book,pg 30

Arndt ordered Ramsey to put the body down on the floor near the front door and told Fleet White to guard the basement door.

Yep,maybe she should have told him not to go inside and touch anything but does anyone have to mention this to you if you're dealing with a murder scene,he should have known better.

Fleet White is the best witness this case has since he observed the alleged crime-scene on three occassions, critically early in the morning, to diminish his testimony is to indulge in theory preference.

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maybe he is the best witness,but imagine what a Ramsey defence lawyer would do to him on the stand.YOU moved the suitcase,YOU moved the glass,YOU went there right after you arrived,YOU touched the tape,why would we believe YOU and not my client re how JB was positioned,etc?

a defence lawyer would argue re this exactly like he would argue re the BPD,both LE and FW messed up with the crime scene therefor in their opinion nothing found there has any value because it doesn't represent the truth.

madeleine said:

ST's book,pg 30

Arndt ordered Ramsey to put the body down on the floor near the front door and told Fleet White to guard the basement door.

Yep,maybe she should have told him not to go inside and touch anything but does anyone have to mention this to you if you're dealing with a murder scene,he should have known better.



maybe he is the best witness,but imagine what a Ramsey defence lawyer would do to him on the stand.YOU moved the suitcase,YOU moved the glass,YOU went there right after you arrived,YOU touched the tape,why would we believe YOU and not my client re how JB was positioned,etc?

a defence lawyer would argue re this exactly like he would argue re the BPD,both LE and FW messed up with the crime scene therefor in their opinion nothing found there has any value because it doesn't represent the truth.

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madeleine,
Arndt ordered Ramsey to put the body down on the floor near the front door and told Fleet White to guard the basement door.

It does say that, but did you read the next sentence?

Instead, White ran back down to the cellar room

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Arndt told him to guard one particular door, but Fleet White headed straight for the wine-cellar, he knew something was wrong, so he went to check.

Sure he would be given a bad time on the stand, but his forensic traces can be eliminated, its not as if he was walking all over blood spatters or actually removing evidence.

His testimony will be important since no other person looked into the wine-cellar on three occassions that day.


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Who hurt this case the most...or what?
I'm going with what. The feuding between the BPD & the BDA's office as well as the inner feuding inside the BPD (which existed before JB was killed) was never going to bring a quick resolution to this case or, more importantly, justice for the real victim.

Limaes said:

Who hurt this case the most...or what?
I'm going with what. The feuding between the BPD & the BDA's office as well as the inner feuding inside the BPD (which existed before JB was killed) was never going to bring a quick resolution to this case or, more importantly, justice for the real victim.

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good point.and I would add the BPD's ego not to involve the FBI more.

I'm reading Steve Thomas' book at the moment. Granted, I don't have as much background as some do, but I feel at the point where I am studying this case that the majority of the blame should go to the police chief and DA. Although, LE botched a lot early on at the crime scene, it was the DA that held LE back in the investigation.

Rdw1981 said:

I'm reading Steve Thomas' book at the moment. Granted, I don't have as much background as some do, but I feel at the point where I am studying this case that the majority of the blame should go to the police chief and DA. Although, LE botched a lot early on at the crime scene, it was the DA that held LE back in the investigation.

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Rdw1981,
Do you think this might have been deliberate and orchestrated e.g. a conspiracy?


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UKGuy said:

Rdw1981,
Do you think this might have been deliberate and orchestrated e.g. a conspiracy?


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I know speaking for myself, I don't think this was a conspiracy at all. I think it was an ego thing on the part of the police chief, pressure put on the DA by powers unnamed, and inexperience and incompetence. But yes, I agree that going back to the very beginning, the blame goes to the DA and police chief. The DA also had personal and business relationships with the defense lawyers and their firm. No way should he have remained on this case.