Why were JB's arms over her head?

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We know who would do that! Parents who killed their kid and don't want to get caught. And it worked, at least as far as the Justice System is concerned.
 
DeeDee249 said:
We know who would do that! Parents who killed their kid and don't want to get caught. And it worked, at least as far as the Justice System is concerned.
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Oh, but WE know the truth, don't we? Too bad that we aren't the justice system.
 
rashomon said:
DeeDee: I think in the # 36 post on this thread, JMO 8778 meant that the Ramseys wanted to make it appear as if the alleged intruders killed Jon Benet after becoming aware that the Ramseys had called the police after all, i. e. the small foreign faction carried out the threat in the ransom note. But for that the body would have had to be put back in the basement by the SFF with the police already in the house. And the Ramseys' panicked minds failed to assess the absurdity of such a scenario.

The question is did the Ramseys have any specific scenario at all in mind when writing that note? They certainly did not have an overall consistent scenario in mind, merely bits and pieces of scenarios, which is why the whole note is nothing but an inconsistent and jumbled mess.
Since the Ramseys, for whatever reason, kept the body in the house (too risky to dump it outside, or they couldn't bring themselves to dump it outside, or both these reasons), they had to introduce an element pointing to outsiders involved, and the RN served this purpose. Not so much what was in it counted in their opinion, but that there was a note at all. And I suppose Patsy erroneously thought the longer the note was, the more 'convincing' it would sound. :)
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rashomon,
JMO 8778 meant that the Ramseys wanted to make it appear as if the alleged intruders killed Jon Benet after becoming aware that the Ramseys had called the police after all, i. e. the small foreign faction carried out the threat in the ransom note. But for that the body would have had to be put back in the basement by the SFF with the police already in the house. And the Ramseys' panicked minds failed to assess the absurdity of such a scenario.
Click to expand...
Not quite, more that if JonBenet was dumped outside of the house, then her death is a forgone conclusion, once the R's dial 911.

But we know they did not dump her outdoors, so they had to change their plans, and had no time to write another ransom note, so decided to place JonBenet's body out of sight.

imo it is less panic and more less time available to them, that leads to the size-12's and wiping her down, e.g. faking a bedtime appearance, than leaving her as she may have left on being dumped outdoors, e.g. partially undressed, and visibly sexually assaulted?

This was the potentially fatal decision in their staging, e.g. not following the plan, not dumping her body outdoors. This allows us to see it was all staged, if she had been dumped outdoors, we would not be discussing this issue and we would all simply be looking for a nasty intruder?

And the Ramseys' panicked minds failed to assess the absurdity of such a scenario.
Click to expand...
So rather than the latter, not following their own plan forces them to utilise what is available e.g. the wine-cellar, size-12 underwear, ransom note, paintbrush handle, but in doing so left traces of two different attempts at staging. They knew there were now inconsistencies but were ready to blame it on a failed kidnapping, not on a successful kidnapping that then carried out written threats?


.
.
 
UKGuy said:
rashomon,

But we know they did not dump her outdoors, so they had to change their plans, and had no time to write another ransom note, so decided to place JonBenet's body out of sight.
Click to expand...
We don't know if the Ramseys ever had the plan of dumping the body outside at all.

This was the potentially fatal decision in their staging, e.g. not following the plan, not dumping her body outdoors. This allows us to see it was all staged, if she had been dumped outdoors, we would not be discussing this issue and we would all simply be looking for a nasty intruder?
Click to expand...
Not if she had been found outside with that garrote contraption from the Ramsey home around her neck. For kidnappers don't have the time to stay in the victim's home for so long. They are in and out of the house in seconds, especially when other family members are present in the home too.
They knew there were now inconsistencies but were ready to blame it on a failed kidnapping, not on a successful kidnapping that then carried out written threats?
Click to expand...
The garrote around the neck contradicts a 'failed kidnapping' scenario imo.
But whatever John and Patsy had on their mind, they did not really think it through, as posters have pointed out here. I think the Ramseys state of panic prevented them from thinking it through.
 
rashomon said:
...For kidnappers don't have the time to stay in the victim's home for so long. They are in and out of the house in seconds, especially when other family members are present in the home too.

Yep. And the same can be said for pedophiles.

The garrote around the neck contradicts a 'failed kidapping' scenario imo....

You're on a roll!
Click to expand...

Rash, I just do not understand how anyone can not see these inconsistencies. Even more, the Ramseys acted guilty and continued to do things that guilty people would do and continued to not do things that innocent parents would be expected to do.
 
rashomon said:
We don't know if the Ramseys ever had the plan of dumping the body outside at all.


Not if she had been found outside with that garrote contraption from the Ramsey home around her neck. For kidnappers don't have the time to stay in the victim's home for so long. They are in and out of the house in seconds, especially when other family members are present in the home too.

The garrote around the neck contradicts a 'failed kidapping' scenario imo.
But whatever John and Patsy had on their mind, they did not really think it through, as posters have pointed out here. I think the Ramseys state of panic prevented them from thinking it through.
Click to expand...

We don't know if the Ramseys ever had the plan of dumping the body outside at all.
Click to expand...
There is much we cannot be certain of, but I was flagging up what appears to be a change of plan, and with a ransom note implying an abduction scenario, but a corpse present, then the location of the corpse must suggest the former is out of place?


Not if she had been found outside with that garrote contraption from the Ramsey home around her neck. For kidnappers don't have the time to stay in the victim's home for so long. They are in and out of the house in seconds, especially when other family members are present in the home too.
Click to expand...
Why? Who is going to say when the garrote was applied if she is discovered outdoors?

The garrote around the neck contradicts a 'failed kidapping' scenario imo.
But whatever John and Patsy had on their mind, they did not really think it through, as posters have pointed out here. I think the Ramseys state of panic prevented them from thinking it through.
Click to expand...
No I disagree, you are describing the Ramsey's state of mind many hours after JonBenet was killed, by then the panic would have receded?

The garrote is there to mask her asphyxiation just as her size-12's are there to mask her sexual assault. The Ramsey Plan-B was to hide most of JonBenet's original injuries behind staged effects, but still claim she had been kidnapped, e.g. 911 call, but then declare a faite accompli that the abduction had gone wrong because JonBenet was discovered on the premises, what else can they do, its not what the fake evidence suggests but what the presence of her body states, e.g. a failed kidnapping!

.
 
Yep. That's what I thought. I also thought maybe she was dragged by the arms into the wineceller, and just left that way, then rigor mortis set in.
 
UKGuy said:
There is much we cannot be certain of, but I was flagging up what appears to be a change of plan, and with a ransom note implying an abduction scenario, but a corpse present, then the location of the corpse must suggest the former is out of place?
Click to expand...
But if the Ramseys abandoned their kidnappping scenario, then why didn't they tear up that ransom note in little pieces and flush it down the toilet?

Why? Who is going to say when the garrote was applied if she is discovered outdoors?
Click to expand...
It would be found out that the panitbrush hadle came from the Ramsey home. It is highly unlikely that the "small foreign faction", in the process of abducting JonBet, stumbling through the dark basement with the body, would be thinking, "now while we're at it, let's take a this paintbrush here with us and see if we can later construct a torture instrument with that!" Sounds absurd imo.

just as her size-12's are there to mask her sexual assault.
Click to expand...
Why the size 12's? Why not take one of the many size 4-6's which were in her drawer?

The garrote is there to mask her asphyxiation
Click to expand...
You mean she was manually strangled first? But why strangle her manually when if she has already been whacked on the head? What is your timeline re the injuries?
No I disagree, you are describing the Ramsey's state of mind many hours after JonBenet was killed, by then the panic would have receded?
Click to expand...
While the acute panic would have receded a bit, imo there still was enough panic and confusion left in them after such a shattering event like having caused the death of their child.
 
rashomon said:
But if the Ramseys abandoned their kidnappping scenario, then why didn't they tear up that ransom note in little pieces and flush it down the toilet?

Why the size 12's? Why not take one of the many size 4-6's which were in her drawer?


You mean she was manually strangled first? But why strangle her manually when if she has already been whacked on the head? What is your timeline re the injuries?
Click to expand...

They needed the RN to provide a credible reason WHY she was killed (because they "disobeyed" and called police) It was a perfect explanation for the dead child in the basement.
They couldn't use her own panties because the ones she was wearing that say said "Wednesday". And they needed to replace them with an identical pair that also said "Wednesday" because someone at the White's may have seen what panties she was wearing and remembered them. Why was this important? Because the parents say she was asleep when she got home and they never saw her alive again. If she was supposed to have been "kidnapped", she needed to be found murdered in exactly what she was wearing when she was supposedly put to bed. The only other panties that said "Wednesday" were the ones bought by PR as a gift for a relative. They were probably in a wrapped gift box in the basement- and UNWRAPPED gift boxes were discovered by LE after the murder. The Rs unwrapped those boxes looking for the new Bloomies panties so they could take the "Wednesday" pair out and put them on JBR. Remember the Rs never thought about the SIZE of the panties. They never figured anyone would notice they were too big or look at the size.
I believe JBR was bashed on the head first. But the wound didn't bleed and there was no outward sign of the bash- even the coroner didn't know she had been bashed on the head until he actually pulled back her scalp!

So...how to make it look like she'd been killed by an "intruder"?

First- Stage a VISIBLE method of death- so that when LE sees the body they can say-"well- obviously she was strangled- there's a garotte around her neck". The reason for THIS is: the head bash was going to be found at some point- and it would be easier to imagine a parent whacking a kid on the head in a rage or pushing them into something. But it's much harder to imagine a parent strangllng their child with a garotte. Indeed, the FBI CASKU unit had not known ONE single case where a child was killed by a parent with a garotte. (actually, JBR wasn't killed by a parent with a garotte either. She was killed by a parent with a bash on the head, THEN made to look like she was strangled with a garotte.)
Then- make a ransom note saying she'll be killed if police are called.
Then- Call police!
 
DeeDee249 said:
They needed the RN to provide a credible reason WHY she was killed (because they "disobeyed" and called police) It was a perfect explanation for the dead child in the basement.
They couldn't use her own panties because the ones she was wearing that say said "Wednesday". And they needed to replace them with an identical pair that also said "Wednesday" because someone at the White's may have seen what panties she was wearing and remembered them. Why was this important? Because the parents say she was asleep when she got home and they never saw her alive again. If she was supposed to have been "kidnapped", she needed to be found murdered in exactly what she was wearing when she was supposedly put to bed. The only other panties that said "Wednesday" were the ones bought by PR as a gift for a relative. They were probably in a wrapped gift box in the basement- and UNWRAPPED gift boxes were discovered by LE after the murder. The Rs unwrapped those boxes looking for the new Bloomies panties so they could take the "Wednesday" pair out and put them on JBR. Remember the Rs never thought about the SIZE of the panties. They never figured anyone would notice they were too big or look at the size.
I believe JBR was bashed on the head first. But the wound didn't bleed and there was no outward sign of the bash- even the coroner didn't know she had been bashed on the head until he actually pulled back her scalp!

So...how to make it look like she'd been killed by an "intruder"?

First- Stage a VISIBLE method of death- so that when LE sees the body they can say-"well- obviously she was strangled- there's a garotte around her neck". The reason for THIS is: the head bash was going to be found at some point- and it would be easier to imagine a parent whacking a kid on the head in a rage or pushing them into something. But it's much harder to imagine a parent strangllng their child with a garotte. Indeed, the FBI CASKU unit had not known ONE single case where a child was killed by a parent with a garotte. (actually, JBR wasn't killed by a parent with a garotte either. She was killed by a parent with a bash on the head, THEN made to look like she was strangled with a garotte.)
Then- make a ransom note saying she'll be killed if police are called.
Then- Call police!
Click to expand...

Right on! And then call over every friend that you have ever known, just to make quad-druple sure that the "intruder/kidnapper" has a "reason" to kill her...."and if you talk to so much as a dog...she will be beheaded".
 
The wording of the RN made darn sure that whatever the parents did, SOMETHING would cause the "kidnappers" to kill their victim.
 
DeeDee249 said:
The wording of the RN made darn sure that whatever the parents did, SOMETHING would cause the "kidnappers" to kill their victim.
Click to expand...

You are right...there was alot of..."do so and so...and she dies", in that note.
 
DeeDee249 said:
They needed the RN to provide a credible reason WHY she was killed (because they "disobeyed" and called police) It was a perfect explanation for the dead child in the basement.
They couldn't use her own panties because the ones she was wearing that say said "Wednesday". And they needed to replace them with an identical pair that also said "Wednesday" because someone at the White's may have seen what panties she was wearing and remembered them. Why was this important? Because the parents say she was asleep when she got home and they never saw her alive again. If she was supposed to have been "kidnapped", she needed to be found murdered in exactly what she was wearing when she was supposedly put to bed. The only other panties that said "Wednesday" were the ones bought by PR as a gift for a relative. They were probably in a wrapped gift box in the basement- and UNWRAPPED gift boxes were discovered by LE after the murder. The Rs unwrapped those boxes looking for the new Bloomies panties so they could take the "Wednesday" pair out and put them on JBR. Remember the Rs never thought about the SIZE of the panties. They never figured anyone would notice they were too big or look at the size.
I believe JBR was bashed on the head first. But the wound didn't bleed and there was no outward sign of the bash- even the coroner didn't know she had been bashed on the head until he actually pulled back her scalp!

So...how to make it look like she'd been killed by an "intruder"?

First- Stage a VISIBLE method of death- so that when LE sees the body they can say-"well- obviously she was strangled- there's a garotte around her neck". The reason for THIS is: the head bash was going to be found at some point- and it would be easier to imagine a parent whacking a kid on the head in a rage or pushing them into something. But it's much harder to imagine a parent strangllng their child with a garotte. Indeed, the FBI CASKU unit had not known ONE single case where a child was killed by a parent with a garotte. (actually, JBR wasn't killed by a parent with a garotte either. She was killed by a parent with a bash on the head, THEN made to look like she was strangled with a garotte.)
Then- make a ransom note saying she'll be killed if police are called.
Then- Call police!
Click to expand...

The size 12s were in her drawer in the bathroom as Patsy and JB had decided to go ahead and keep them instead of giving them to the niece, according to Patsy. The partially unwrapped gifts in the basement Patsy admitted to peeling back some of the wrapping to see what they were because some of the gifts down there were for Burkes birthday and they were't all for Christmas.
 
DeeDee249 said:
They needed the RN to provide a credible reason WHY she was killed (because they "disobeyed" and called police) It was a perfect explanation for the dead child in the basement.
They couldn't use her own panties because the ones she was wearing that say said "Wednesday". And they needed to replace them with an identical pair that also said "Wednesday" because someone at the White's may have seen what panties she was wearing and remembered them. Why was this important? Because the parents say she was asleep when she got home and they never saw her alive again. If she was supposed to have been "kidnapped", she needed to be found murdered in exactly what she was wearing when she was supposedly put to bed. The only other panties that said "Wednesday" were the ones bought by PR as a gift for a relative. They were probably in a wrapped gift box in the basement- and UNWRAPPED gift boxes were discovered by LE after the murder. The Rs unwrapped those boxes looking for the new Bloomies panties so they could take the "Wednesday" pair out and put them on JBR. Remember the Rs never thought about the SIZE of the panties. They never figured anyone would notice they were too big or look at the size.
I believe JBR was bashed on the head first. But the wound didn't bleed and there was no outward sign of the bash- even the coroner didn't know she had been bashed on the head until he actually pulled back her scalp!

So...how to make it look like she'd been killed by an "intruder"?

First- Stage a VISIBLE method of death- so that when LE sees the body they can say-"well- obviously she was strangled- there's a garotte around her neck". The reason for THIS is: the head bash was going to be found at some point- and it would be easier to imagine a parent whacking a kid on the head in a rage or pushing them into something. But it's much harder to imagine a parent strangllng their child with a garotte. Indeed, the FBI CASKU unit had not known ONE single case where a child was killed by a parent with a garotte. (actually, JBR wasn't killed by a parent with a garotte either. She was killed by a parent with a bash on the head, THEN made to look like she was strangled with a garotte.)
Then- make a ransom note saying she'll be killed if police are called.
Then- Call police!
Click to expand...
I know they needed the ransom note, DeeDee. Sorry about creating confusion on this issue. ITA with your post - the reasons you give make absolute sense.

I had merely asked this question to UKGuy because I wanted to hear his specific reasons for the Ramseys keeping the note, since he is so adamant about the Ramseys having 'abadoned' their previous plan of staging a kidnapping scenario, about there having been two phases of staging the scene, etc.
I had in fact asked this (rhetorical) question to elicit from UKGuy the same type of response you gave. I'll try a more 'direct' approach the next time. :)

jmo
 
trixie said:
The size 12s were in her drawer in the bathroom as Patsy and JB had decided to go ahead and keep them instead of giving them to the niece, according to Patsy. The partially unwrapped gifts in the basement Patsy admitted to peeling back some of the wrapping to see what they were because some of the gifts down there were for Burkes birthday and they were't all for Christmas.
Click to expand...
But if the size 12s had been in the bathroom drawer, then the police would have found them during their house search. But they did not find any size 12s, only size 4 to 6s.
In fact only much later, the Ramseys finally turned in a package of size 12s, claiming they had found them in boxes packed for their move to Atlanta.
It seems Patsy lied here when claiming the size 12 Bloomies were kept in the bathroom drawer.

jmo
 
rashomon said:
But if the size 12s had been in the bathroom drawer, then the police would have found them during their house search. But they did not find any size 12s, only size 4 to 6s.
In fact only much later, the Ramseys finally turned in a package of size 12s, claiming they had found them in boxes packed for their move to Atlanta.
It seems Patsy lied here when claiming the size 12 Bloomies were kept in the bathroom drawer.

jmo
Click to expand...

Unless, of course...that IS where they had BEEN previously kept, and they removed and hid them after the murder.
 
rashomon said:
But if the size 12s had been in the bathroom drawer, then the police would have found them during their house search. But they did not find any size 12s, only size 4 to 6s.
In fact only much later, the Ramseys finally turned in a package of size 12s, claiming they had found them in boxes packed for their move to Atlanta.
It seems Patsy lied here when claiming the size 12 Bloomies were kept in the bathroom drawer.

jmo
Click to expand...
What?? Patsy lied??:eek: Say it aint so!! :p
 
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