What time did the murders happen?

what time(s) the investigators/prosecution/defense thinks the murders happened?

yes i'm still reading but who knows when i'll come across that info lol if there is any...

Sometime between 1:00 am and 5:00 am on May 6. Least that is what I remember off the top of my head.

Can anyone else confirm this?

The time of death has always puzzled me.

The boys were last seen around sundown, IIRC. The Byers child, at least, was already in trouble for leaving home.

I'm assuming the other two had some time they were expected to be home, since their parents reported them missing not too long after dark.

So if we believe the TOD, then we have to believe the three 8-year-olds were hanging out somewhere, in the dark, knowing they were in trouble and increasingly so for being late, for 5 or more hours!

I can imagine the kids procrastinating, knowing they would have to "face the music" when they got home, but that's still a long time to "hang" around with not much to do.

Unless I am wrong, JM's confession, if we are to put stock in that, says nothing about holding the boys for any length of time before attacking them.

So regardless of one's belief as to the WM3's guilt, one has to wonder where were the kids all that time? What were they doing?

see nova that's exactly what i'm getting at.....imo it would have proved so much more in one way or the other if we had a more definite tod...

Now, I've never ever placed the blame on anyone else. I wasn't and still am not on the hobb's did it wagon.

If we look at every single person's statement, and use common sense as to the idea you mentioned above (the boys more than likely did not just hide for hours)...it places a couple of people at rhh but not damien/jessie/jason.

By Beyers and Hobbs own testimony-they were in and around rhh back and forth from around 5:30-6:00pm up until the am hours.

Let's say Damien was without a doubt the one that killed the three little boys in the area they were found. (and i apologize if I seem scatter-brained here-I promise I'm not but at the moment I've got a million thoughts going thru my head!)
And, I'm only saying Damien because an eyewitness put him around rhh approx at 9:30pm.
Let's say Damien and whoever absolutely killed these little boys anywhere between 6pm and 6am the next morning. From the two step-fathers own accounts they were in and out of rhh all night long.....they never heard a single sound? They both state several (anywhere from 20-40 depending on which you read) people were also helping look. Noone heard or saw anything? Three weird looking teenagers all muddy and most definitely had to be bloody....noone saw anything?
Oh but some may say it happened in between the times people were in and out of rhh....ok wow damien and company are very fast....they beat/sodomized/tortured/mutilated three little boys ..... cleaned up the area....hid the bikes....in the somewhat evening hours....in between LE, family members, friends, etc. searching the woods?

Terry Hobbs states on his last interview on the callahan site that he was back and forth in those woods all night starting at around 6pm. He and his friend Jacoby.

Ok so let's say all this happened just like I wrote it.....Damien then is casually walking near the area at 9:30?

Somebody please help me make sense of this. Sunnyone, Aussie, in all seriousness...I've got something wrong here right?

Some supporters think the TOD screams the that creek was just a dump site. That would account for the time difference between when the boys went missing and the TOD. That would mean that the WM3 were innocent.

According to Jessie's confession it happened around dusk which at that location and that time of the year would have been between 6:30 and 7:30

In Byers May 19 statement :
AND THE LITTLE BOY AND LITTLE GIRL SAID, YEAH, WE SAW CHRISTOPHER AND STEVEN AND MICHAEL A LITTLE BIT AFTER 6:30, OUR MAMA WAS BRINGING US HOME FROM THE STORE AND WE WAS COMING DOWN GOODWIN, AND WE SAW 'EM GOING IN THE ROBINHOOD AREA. WELL, THEN THAT CONCRETE SHOOT, YOU KNOW WHERE THE CONCRETE PART IS THAT GOES IN DOWN THERE JUST RIGHT OFF OF 14TH. SO, RYAN AND I THEN, CAME BACK TO THE HOUSE AND DANA IS AROUND HER HOUSE LOOKING AND THEN TERRY HOBBS, I THINK HAD COME UP BY THEN AND TOLD 'EM YOU KNOW, THAT THAT WAS THE AREA THEY'D LAST SEEN. SO WE KIND OF ALL CONVERGED DOWN THERE LOOKING IN THE WOODS.

SUDBURY- DID THE LADY SAY ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT SEEING ANYONE ELSE, OR, OR ANYTHING?

MARK- WELL, THAT LADY, SEE WE DIDN'T TALK TO A LADY. IT WAS JUST THE KIDS. BUT I...

SUDBURY- THE KIDS.

MARK- THE KIDS. NOW I'LL GET TO LATER ON, THURSDAY. I'LL GET TO THAT IN A MINUTE. UH, WE STARTED LOOKING AND LOOKED IN THAT AREA. IT'S NOW PROBABLY 8:30. IT HAD GOT DARK. AND TERRY SAID, WELL, HE WAS GOING TO SPREAD OUT DOWN, YOU KNOW, TOWARDS WHERE THEY WERE FOUND. I DON'T KNOW HOW FAR DOWN THAT WAY HE WENT, BUT HE WAS GOING TO LOOK THAT WAY AND MY SON, RYAN AND I AND RICHIE MASTERS, JUST SOMEHOW RICHIE MASTERS SHOWED UP TO HELP LOOK. AND MY SON RYAN AND I THINK, BRETT SMITH. RICHIE MASTERS GOES WITH BRETT SMITH'S SISTER. SO THAT'S HOW THEY WERE KIND OF TOGETHER. SO, WE'RE LOOKING IN THAT AREA KIND OF WHERE THE LOOP IS. YOU KNOW, THERE'S, IN THAT OPEN FIELD THERE'S JUST KIND OF A CIRCLE AROUND IT OUT THERE. WE WERE LOOKING IN THAT AREA OF THE BAYOU AND ALL. WELL, I HAD ON A PAIR OF SHORTS AND A PAIR OF FLIP FLOPS, SO I RUN BACK TO THE HOUSE AND CHANGED CLOTHES AND PUT ME ON SOME COVERALLS AND BOOTS THAT I HAD ON PROBABLY FOR THE NEXT 2 OR 3 DAYS. AND I WENT BACK OUT THERE AND I MADE A PASS. I WENT ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE BACK, AND WALKED UP THE GULLY TO WHERE IT MAKES A REAL STEEP WASHDOWN. YOU CAN SEE WHERE THE WATER WASHES INTO THE BAYOU. WELL, I DIDN'T HAVE A FLASHLIGHT OR ANYTHING WITH ME. AND I THOUGHT, WELL, I'M GOING TO GO BORROW A FLASHLIGHT FROM ROBERT FOUNTAIN. I KNEW HE JUST LIVED DOWN THE STREET FROM ME. I KNEW I'D BORROW A LIGHT FROM SOMEBODY. SO, AS I COME BACK OUT, I SEE A POLICE CAR PULL UP. AND IT WAS OFFICER MOORE, I BELIEVE. AND HE SAID, DID YOU FIND ANYTHING. I SAID, NO, I SAID, BUT I DON'T HAVE A LIGHT. WILL YOU HELP ME LOOK? HE SAID, YEAH, I'LL HELP YOU LOOK. SO HE GOT HIS LIGHT OUT AND WE WALKED BACK THAT TRAIL AND THEN WE CUT BACK UP THIS SIDE, WHICH RUNS INTO THAT DITCH KIND OF THAT'S A STEEL DITCH. IT'S GOT THAT ROPE HANGING DOWN FROM A TREE.

Terry's timeline: (a supporter made this)5:15pm - Amanda and Terry arrive at Jacoby's house. This timeframe is substantiated by David Jacoby's statement to Rachel Geiser and in his declaration for the Pasdar lawsuit (Exhibit 10).

6-6:30pm - Terry leaves David Jacoby's house to see if Stevie has returned home. Supported by David Jacoby's statement to Rachel Geiser and in his declaration (Exhibit 10).

6:30-6:45pm - Dana pulls up to Terry's home and asks if he has seen Michael. He tells her he is looking for Stevie. Terry discusses this in both his WMPD interview and in his depositions. Dana is never asked about when she spoke to Terry and so none of her statements reflect a time.

6:45-6:50pm - Terry follows Dana back to her house to see if Michael has been found. After Dana saw all three children on two bikes at 6pm (a time she never wavers on, even during testimony) she sent her daughter Dawn out to find Michael so he could come back to eat supper. Dawn was unsuccessful in locating Michael. Dana testifies about this in both trials. Dawn probably returned to the house to tell her mom she could not find Michael between 6:30-6:45pm (approx)

6:50-7pm - Dana and Terry are talking in Dana's front yard and Mark Byers comes across the street to ask if they have seen Chris. They tell him no, but Dana says that she saw all three boys riding bikes earlier at 6pm together. At this point, all of the parents present know that the boys are with each other. Terry discusses this in his WMPD interview and in his depositions. He further states the following during his 2007 police interview:


Terry Hobbs: I mighta even called from there cuz i'm, I don't remember that, but i'm, I member when we's at the Moore's house and I met Mark, I member telling Dana cuz they both said they was gonna call the police and I told one of, I said, tell them Stevie ain't here too. So I think, I didn't call, I didn't make that call right then but I mentioned that to Dana.


7:00-7:10pm - Terry returns to Jacoby's to ask him to help look for Stevie. Jacoby mentions this return in his declaration but does not give a time. He gives a time of between 7 and 7:30pm during his interview with Rachel Geiser. Terry confirms returning to Jacoby's during his interviews, although he is evasive about it being a second trip because he is covering up the first hour he spent there when he thought Stevie would return on his own.

7:10pm - Terry and Jacoby search for Stevie near Mayfair as discussed in Jacoby's statements. Terry says in his WMPD that he and Jacoby drove around at this time to look for Stevie.

7:30pm - Terry drops Jacoby off and leaves again, possibly to check back at home for Stevie. Jacoby confirms this in his declaration but does not give an exact time.

7:30-7:45pm - Terry checks back at the house, but his whereabouts for this short timeframe are unaccounted for beyond him leaving Jacoby's house.

7:45-8:15pm - Terry comes back to Jacoby's and the two drive around again, this time taking the same route twice and stopping by the pipe bridge. They entered the southern portion of woods at the end of McAuley but probably did not cross the pipe. The reason for them getting out and going into the woods is probably because it was during this second search that some children told them the boys had been seen going into the woods.

8:15pm - Terry drops Jacoby off at his home for good.

ok but in hobbs' testimony he stated he started going back and forth around 6pm

It makes more sense to me that the time of death is much earlier than in the early morning hours, as with all the searchers someone would have seen something if it was happening that late or early the morning. However, if the crime had already been committed and finished before 8:30, then no one has been in that area yet and the boys are now submerged and impossible to spot.

Officer: Did Pam go into the woods?

Terry Hobbs: Not until I picked her up, we went in together.

Officer: Did you go into the woods before you picked up Pam?

Terry Hobbs: Sure

Officer: You did,

Terry Hobbs: nods yes

Officer: You remember about what time that was?

Terry Hobbs: 6 - 6:30

Officer: K, who was with you at that time?

Terry Hobbs: David

Officer: David Jacoby. Anybody else?

Terry Hobbs: Just a lot of neighbourhood people. Cause there was people on 3 wheelers, 4 wheelers, motorcycles, bicycles, on foot. That was you know, help calling, us, helping us look for 3 kids.

Officer: Is there anything that you saw that you uhh, was it daylight or dark when you all went out there the first time?

Terry Hobbs: Daylight

http://www.wm3blackboard.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=f7bbd05941b64237d76c85a71d37bb86&topic=25.0

After Terry left Jacoby at 8:15, he says, in the WMPD interview I think, that David Jacoby came back and searched with them later. In all this searching, which continued until the wee hours of the morning, someone would have observed something if the murders happened during the police time frame. I agree that the murders had to have occurred earlier than the 1 am to 5 am timeline as other posters have said. And, as other posters have said, I believe the earlier TOD excludes Damien, Jason and Jessie. I'm not sure why Burnett wouldn't admit their alibis at trial, but you guys do know that they all had alibis, right? As a retired teacher who often had to work with students with Jessie's IQ, it seems obvious to me that the original confession was coerced. If you read the transcripts of that confession, you will see that he was led by the WMPD into many of his statements. Again, given his mental disability, the fact that he continued to confess is understandable. The telling fact, to me, is that he would not testify against Damien and Jason at their trials. Something deep inside him just wouldn't let him continue to parrot back responses which he knew weren't true. Damien's "confession" at the softball game, if it happened, was just teenaged bragadociousness. Again, I've dealt with this type of teenager many times in my years of teaching. This also applies to his actions during the trial. If you have been around teenagers, you know what I'm saying. Also, his statements that supposedly revealed unpublished material could be explained in one of two ways: either he heard rumors (which I'm sure were abundant) or the police asked leading questions that gave him the information. Of course, the police didn't record that part of the interview. As to Jason's "confession" to Michael Carson, to me this is the most unbelievable of them all. Given Jason's shy nature, he would never have confided in someone that he had known for such a short time. I base my opinions, as I said before, on many years of working with teenagers of all types. As to who is guilty, there is only one person who is linked to the discovery site (since we don't really have a crime scene) by any real physical evidence. I believe that he should be thoroughly investigated, something that the WMPD have not yet done.

Compassionate Reader said:

After Terry left Jacoby at 8:15, he says, in the WMPD interview I think, that David Jacoby came back and searched with them later. In all this searching, which continued until the wee hours of the morning, someone would have observed something if the murders happened during the police time frame. I agree that the murders had to have occurred earlier than the 1 am to 5 am timeline as other posters have said. And, as other posters have said, I believe the earlier TOD excludes Damien, Jason and Jessie. I'm not sure why Burnett wouldn't admit their alibis at trial, but you guys do know that they all had alibis, right? As a retired teacher who often had to work with students with Jessie's IQ, it seems obvious to me that the original confession was coerced. If you read the transcripts of that confession, you will see that he was led by the WMPD into many of his statements. Again, given his mental disability, the fact that he continued to confess is understandable. The telling fact, to me, is that he would not testify against Damien and Jason at their trials. Something deep inside him just wouldn't let him continue to parrot back responses which he knew weren't true. Damien's "confession" at the softball game, if it happened, was just teenaged bragadociousness. Again, I've dealt with this type of teenager many times in my years of teaching. This also applies to his actions during the trial. If you have been around teenagers, you know what I'm saying. Also, his statements that supposedly revealed unpublished material could be explained in one of two ways: either he heard rumors (which I'm sure were abundant) or the police asked leading questions that gave him the information. Of course, the police didn't record that part of the interview. As to Jason's "confession" to Michael Carson, to me this is the most unbelievable of them all. Given Jason's shy nature, he would never have confided in someone that he had known for such a short time. I base my opinions, as I said before, on many years of working with teenagers of all types. As to who is guilty, there is only one person who is linked to the discovery site (since we don't really have a crime scene) by any real physical evidence. I believe that he should be thoroughly investigated, something that the WMPD have not yet done.

Click to expand...

The alibi's of each of them were discredited or contradicted by witness's and it wasn't that Burnett wouldn't allow them at all. Damien in fact discredited his own while he was on the stand.

As for Jessie's first confession being coerced, well that is your opinion and while you of course entitled to it, I don't find the investigators led Jessie at all and have pointed out that Jessie knew facts about the crime that he shouldn't have known. It can be speculated on how he knew these facts forever, were there rumors, yes I've even admitted that. However, I've not found one instance where this information was rumored or reported in any media form. The fact that Jessie clears up some of his inconsistencies in a later confession (the one with his attorney's present) says more to me than the fact he didn't testify. It also doesn't explain the confession Jessie made directly to his own attorney's with no one else present. The fact that he was slow, well that in itself is somewhat in question. But he was intelligent enough to have dealt with the police before on other matters. The reason as stated before that Jessie didn't testify isn't because of the reason stated, it was because the special appointed counsel advised him not to testify unless he was given a reduced sentence, and that it would hurt his appeal process. Judge Burnett would not guarantee him a reduced sentence, therefore he didn't testify.

Damien's confession at the softball game, Damien has admitted to this at this point. He says he was joking around. At this point, I don't believe anyone would brag about killing three little boys, even Damien, unless it was true. Did you know he also confessed to others? I've heard he even told his attorney's that people would come forth and state that Damien had told them he had done it.

Jason's confession... you might not believe it, because according to you he was shy. However, Michael Carson passed two polygraphs on this. I tend to believe that.

Another TH did it supporter. First of all even the defense states that this was the crime scene. Second a hair fragment that was compared to questionable samples does not make credible evidence. Third the hair could have been easily secondary transfer, since no one knows who shoe laces were used to tie up Michael Moore, they could have been Stevie's. Terry has been thoroughly investigated, the state has stated that he isn't nor was he ever a suspect.

Hobbs killed these boys.

It's not art - it's cold science and a smoking gun as is almost never seen in this kind of situation.

Hobbs spent time with Jacoby after the boys went missing on 5/5/93.
He picked up a hair from Jacoby while hanging out with him.
The hair from Jacoby was on a tree stump near the discovery scene.

There is no explanation for this. The best I've heard a non-supporter say is "maybe the wind blew it there." Don't laugh - that's what they say. The State has been silent on it (even when sputtering and saying that Hobbs' own hair being in the binding of one of the boys [not his stepson] was an innocent transfer).

Jacboy ---> Hobbs ----> Discovery scene

Terry Hobbs is a child killer. The WM3 are completely innocent.

Go ahead and endlessly debate the timeline, why he did it, his person and sexual history, etc, or whether Damien's alibi wasn't strong enough, or whether a cop told him details or he repeated rumors that were floating around in the community, what Damien said at a softball game to a couple of girls, etc etc etc .... whatever -- have fun - that's all "art." This is science and it ends the discussion.

There is no reasonable explanation for the physical evidence except that Terry Hobbs killed Michael, Stevie and Chris. The gun is smoking and, soon enough, the bell will toll for him.

----------------------------------------------------

David Perry Davis, Esq.
"Test everything, Test. Test. Test. I want them to test every damn thing." - Damien Echols, Jonesboro Sun interview from Death Row, August 2010
http://www.dpdlaw.com/jmstatements.htm
http://www.wm3blackboard.com

Sunnyone said:

It makes more sense to me that the time of death is much earlier than in the early morning hours, as with all the searchers someone would have seen something if it was happening that late or early the morning. However, if the crime had already been committed and finished before 8:30, then no one has been in that area yet and the boys are now submerged and impossible to spot.

Click to expand...

In addition to Hobbs' testimony, the problem I see with putting the TOD so early is that RHH was rather commonly used by a lot of people. The earlier the TOD, the most likely that somebody (not a searcher) would have heard a commotion.

Whether one prefers the prosecution theory or takes the JM confessions verbatim, it seems clear the victims would have been making quite a bit of noise.

There's also the issue of the ensuing "cover up." With no evidence that the WM3 had committed mass murders before, how did they cover up this one so successfully without being overheard by somebody passing through the woods? Surely there was a heated discussion as to what to do after the rapes and murders...

What really bugs me, is that so many nons are quick to say that the Hobbs and Jacoby hairs found at the crime scene are easily secondary transfer.

OK, and we have supposedly 3, not one, but 3 long haired teenage guys wrestling down and killing 3 children, and not one single hair from either of the teenagers is found at the scene?

:/

The Hobbs hair might have been secondary transfer, but I still don't see how it could have been in the ligature of MM's binding and be innocent transfer. However, the Jacoby hair is another matter. There is no record of any of the boys being near enough to Jacoby on May 5th to have innocently picked up a hair. Jacoby states in his Pasdar deposition, however, that he and TH played guitars for about an hour somewhere in the 5:15 - 6:30 time frame. IMO, Hobbs picked up a Jacoby hair at this time which was later found on a tree stump at the discovery site. The only other theory as to how it got there (as Jacoby denies being near enough the discovery site to have deposited it directly) is that it blew there. :innocent: Just a little far fetched to me.

science tells us TOD was sometime between 1 and 6 am on may 6. science tells us there were marks very similar to road rash, that you would receive from being dragged or from skidding across rough concrete. science also tells us that rebar pattern was a visible injury on the body of one of the boys. follow the science.

imo, the boys were being held by someone. i don't buy that three 8 yr. olds were hanging out anywhere throughout the night. when it gets dark and late, it gets scary for a tired, hungry 8 yr. old.
i can't stop thinking about the manhole. and i believe there were probably 3 crime scenes in total. the location of the initial attack, the location in which they were "stored" alive and probably murdered, and the dump site.

According to Jessie at first it was in the morning and that Christopher,Michael and Stevie skipped school................Jessie the reliable one.

LunaticFringe said:

According to Jessie at first it was in the morning and that Christopher,Michael and Stevie skipped school................Jessie the reliable one.

Click to expand...

the morning of the 5th, (of may). almost a full 24 hrs. earlier.

Compassionate Reader said:

The Hobbs hair might have been secondary transfer, but I still don't see how it could have been in the ligature of MM's binding and be innocent transfer. However, the Jacoby hair is another matter. There is no record of any of the boys being near enough to Jacoby on May 5th to have innocently picked up a hair. Jacoby states in his Pasdar deposition, however, that he and TH played guitars for about an hour somewhere in the 5:15 - 6:30 time frame. IMO, Hobbs picked up a Jacoby hair at this time which was later found on a tree stump at the discovery site. The only other theory as to how it got there (as Jacoby denies being near enough the discovery site to have deposited it directly) is that it blew there. :innocent: Just a little far fetched to me.

Click to expand...

But since there's no way to date the deposit of the Jacoby hair, it might have been transferred to TH or one of the victims a day or two before, no?