What Is Your Theory?

We asked my friend about the pattern (east west, east west, east west, north south) and he stated that priests do this pattern during mass for the gospel? he also stated it was priests always doing three, but it starts at the head...

Sorry to butt in, and I am not discounting any theory. However I am a Catholic.

Priests do things in three? That would be the Greek Orthodox Church.

We do believe in The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. That's three. During the Gospel after the Priest holds up the Bible you make the sign of the Cross on your forehead and your lips and chest area. Lord forgive me I'm not sure why.

Three though is a mystical number in many Religions and belief systems. Mind, body, spirit. All that.

As for the Gospel and east/west etc. I don't know what your friend means.

Again, sorry to butt in the thread, but I always liked how Greek Orthodox weddings are celebrated.

I've gone with the theory of Native Americans. That somehow may fit in with the East/West etc.

Not to throw more into the game, but here's an interesting topic on Native American rituals and the influence of Free Masons.



http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/native_american_rituals.htm
 
Interesting link, but. . .I don't believe white man knows enough to educate us. When I hit the "ghost dance" part, I KNEW he didn't. My grandfather was Omaha BTW.

Now, for some simple asides. I've known a lot of drunks in many different states, and drunk a bit myself, so has almost everyone I know. Not ONE that I spoke to about this has ever headed toward the water. They all just get in the car and/or go home as best they can. Oddly enough, though, a great many bars I've been to are located very close to the water. What that means, I don't know.

For a "suicide" to bind their own wrists and ankles, then climb under a tarp, well, I'm not sure Houdini could have done that.

I haven't read this entire thread, but years ago I became interested in these deaths. I wonder if anyone, LE, anyone, has looked into some of the older organizations, such as Zebra? I'm sure there are a lot more under many different names. Zebra just came to mind because it once interested me.

Even though I'm not Catholic, and have no desire to put down the Catholic religion, I do know a bit about it. Once upon a time I put some medieval myths down as simple horror stories. Now I read about pedophile priests. It does lead me to wonder if all those "myths" were just "stories". However, I have no evidence, or reason to believe, the Catholic Church is involved in this, just stating a point of interest. I see a lot of Protestant "religions" I'm a bit skeptical about also, quite a few in fact, and, NO, I'm not anti-Christian, just seen the light and bailed "out of her".

These deaths do NOT seem, to me at least, to be random - too many of them, too many similarities. Maybe we all need to take a closer look at everything.

YIKERONI!!! Now that I've decided to read the ENTIRE thread, I think I put my various observations in the wrong place. Maybe a mod can move them or delete them?

My opinion only
 
Just some thoughts...

These murders, however many are actually murders and not accidental drownings (and I do believe very very few are accidents)... they don't seem to be the work of a "serial killer" or multiple "serial killers." To classify them as such would be to only further confuse the situation.

The important point I'm getting at is that these killings are purely perfunctory, no more, no less. The goal seems to be simply to have the person dead with as little fuss or attention as possible. Think about how unassuming it is to kill someone in this manner as compared to how people are usually murdered. LE certainly haven't been keen on the idea of these poor folk even being murdered, as we all know. The very method preserves the likelihood of the crimes not appearing to be crimes in the first place. The perpetrators are truly attempting (and have unfortunately succeeded) in pulling off the "perfect crime."

In most of the cases there is virtually no evidence to suggest sexual assault, torture, or any sort of kinky behavior on the part of the perp(s). How many actual serial killers operate in such a workmanlike, unobtrusive manner? These aren't crimes of passion, nor crimes of anger or jealousy (at least judging by the evidence we have). As I said, they're perfunctory. More akin to hits or contract killings than anything else.

Also, perhaps the details of the victims themselves aren't so important to the perps; perhaps it is simply the highly specific way in which the murders are carried out that brings out a lot of similarities. Of course, the question would then be why no females? Less media attention, I'd say. What I'm basically trying to get at is maybe it's the act of murder itself that is important to the perps, as a means to an end, and not who is actually being murdered. Just a thought.

I simply don't see these crimes fitting the mold of a typical sociopath or group of sociopaths who kill for kicks, nor some sort of street gang or mafia, nor some group of angered/jealous fellow students, etc.

What spurred on some of my theorizing was a comment made by an anonymous user at the Footprints at the Rivers Edge blog, which I find highly persuasive:
http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/2007/12/122207-josh-szostak-21-albany-ny.html

"Seen against the background of the other cases, the Szostak death is far too complicated to be the work of a serial killer or killers. Indeed, the motivation appears to be quite different. Rather, these drowning deaths are most probably fealty or initiation killings. Their purpose is to seal the fate of those participating as final proof of their reliability. After they've proven themselves, they can be trusted to commit other nefarious deeds. Trusted by whom? By any large and criminally motivated group, including those associated with the military and intelligence communities. What are the clues?
1)The killers seek to make their crimes appear to be accidental drownings. Why? Because they don't want the police hunting them. Their motive is simply to implicate initiates or neophytes, drawing as little attention to themselves as possible, not to commit murder as some perverted act of power or control.
2) No private group could get this big. It has to be organized from above. Think of all the discrete and seemingly incongruous events and locations that reveal the same convenient m.o.--death by drowning. Can't happen. Too big.
3) The FBI won't investigate even though it has the authority and the case has reached widespread attention in the media. Did the FBI investigate 911 and the JFK assassination? Maybe. Maybe not. But if not, why not?
4) Possibility of clues left behind to ensure continuing, unremitting cooperation of suspect stragglers not completely vetted by previous methods-- viz. blackmail.
5) This case is ongoing and twelve years old, too old for the gang theory, in my opinion.
6) Looked at on a state-by-state basis, the gang theory fails to produce a sufficient number killings to justify belief in some cult or murder sect in all affected states or regions.

What to do: If I'm right the victims may have known one or more of their killers. Indeed, they may have been a friend or acquaintance. Why does a young man leave a bar who was waiting for his girlfriend to leave the bathroom? Simple. A friend in the bar told him his presence was urgently needed elsewhere. Remember, the young man wasn't expected to leave at all. Alternatively, he may have received a phone call from someone known to him, asking him to leave for some reason. So, who were the people who last saw or otherwise knew that these men were leaving a bar or party, and what are these same people doing now? Do any of them work for ONI, the CIA, etc., or perhaps law enforcement or the government? Do any have classfied backgrounds? Have any recently become extraordinarily rich or successful? Some of the most important clues in this case, I believe, lie with the living. Twelve years is a long time.
"
 
Wow. Awesome post and definitely a lot of food for thought. I hope to read more of your posts in the future. I am so intrigued by these cases.
 
Tonight, after reading about the Mexican drug gang Los Zetas being trained at Fort Bragg and Fort Benning, I was trying to research and find out exactly what sorts of training they may have received.

One article described the training as follows: Many of the Zeta paramilitary personnel were trained at Fort Bragg and at the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, formerly known as the School of the Americas. The former Mexican military Zeta personnel were trained in kidnapping, ambushing, car jacking, surveillance, and psychological warfare operations by the United States and Israel.

This video from the early 1980s talks about the CIA torture schools and I found the 3:00 mark particularly interesting since it talked about how people would just be pulled right off the street and tortured. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xspdhaGWQz4"]YouTube - ‪CIA Torture Programs‬‏[/ame]

I don't think the Smiley Face Killings are in any way connected with Mexican drug cartels or anything in Latin America, but the training the US government provides to the cartels and political groups is quite disturbing to say the least.

The theory I have is that it's possibly United States government personnel involved in the abductions and deaths of these young men. I think the motive could be a result of the outrage of the people of the USA, Europe and elsewhere after embarrassing US government torture scandals such as the one at Abu Ghraib prison. I believe the US government could be experimenting with new and innovative ways to torture young men so prisoners in the future can be tortured and killed without any evidence of torture and murder. I think young, healthy, physically and intellectually sound men are being selected since they're comparable to the types of prisoners we would be taking in a war against (insert potential enemy here). After all, most enemy soldiers are young, fit males. Even the kidnappings themselves would be of training value.

I wish the mother of a Smiley Face Killer victim who said her son had been driven around and tortured for hours would go into more detail about what type of torture she thinks her son may have received.

Before anyone says the US government would never do such a thing to American citizens, please read up about the Tuskegee Experiment which went on for decades and didn't even end until 1972 when it was leaked. [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment"]Tuskegee syphilis experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Tuskegee-syphilis-study_doctor-injecting-subject.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Tuskegee-syphilis-study_doctor-injecting-subject.jpg/350px-Tuskegee-syphilis-study_doctor-injecting-subject.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/3/3a/Tuskegee-syphilis-study_doctor-injecting-subject.jpg/350px-Tuskegee-syphilis-study_doctor-injecting-subject.jpg[/ame] This is just one example out of many and the victims even included American babies. You don't have to look hard to read about our servicemen who were subjected to chemical warfare experiments and so on.

I believe the kidnappings are just too professionally done to be some club of amateurs.
 
jeffries, I've always thought a woman was involved, or a man who looks like a woman. Many of these men look very strong, fit, and would have fought hard against an assault.

I think there is someone(s) who for some reason hate this class of people - young handsome college students who are alone at night after drinking - and they lure them into a car and then somehow cause them to drown without any visible marks. I don't know what kind of drugs could be administered to render these men helpless, so when tossed in a body of water they would drown and there would be no evidence of drugs on the autopsy.

But that's what I think happened. A woman like person lured the men into the car, they were then rendered incapacitated, and then tossed into water to drown.
 
Tonight, after reading about the Mexican drug gang Los Zetas being trained at Fort Bragg and Fort Benning, I was trying to research and find out exactly what sorts of training they may have received.

One article described the training as follows: Many of the Zeta paramilitary personnel were trained at Fort Bragg and at the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, formerly known as the School of the Americas. The former Mexican military Zeta personnel were trained in kidnapping, ambushing, car jacking, surveillance, and psychological warfare operations by the United States and Israel.

This video from the early 1980s talks about the CIA torture schools and I found the 3:00 mark particularly interesting since it talked about how people would just be pulled right off the street and tortured. YouTube - &#x202a;CIA Torture Programs&#x202c;&rlm;

I don't think the Smiley Face Killings are in any way connected with Mexican drug cartels or anything in Latin America, but the training the US government provides to the cartels and political groups is quite disturbing to say the least.

The theory I have is that it's possibly United States government personnel involved in the abductions and deaths of these young men. I think the motive could be a result of the outrage of the people of the USA, Europe and elsewhere after embarrassing US government torture scandals such as the one at Abu Ghraib prison. I believe the US government could be experimenting with new and innovative ways to torture young men so prisoners in the future can be tortured and killed without any evidence of torture and murder. I think young, healthy, physically and intellectually sound men are being selected since they're comparable to the types of prisoners we would be taking in a war against (insert potential enemy here). After all, most enemy soldiers are young, fit males. Even the kidnappings themselves would be of training value.

I wish the mother of a Smiley Face Killer victim who said her son had been driven around and tortured for hours would go into more detail about what type of torture she thinks her son may have received.

Before anyone says the US government would never do such a thing to American citizens, please read up about the Tuskegee Experiment which went on for decades and didn't even end until 1972 when it was leaked. Tuskegee syphilis experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This is just one example out of many and the victims even included American babies. You don't have to look hard to read about our servicemen who were subjected to chemical warfare experiments and so on.

I believe the kidnappings are just too professionally done to be some club of amateurs.


The United States government didn't train any cartel. The original 30 members of the Zetas were a special forces unit in the Mexican Army that deserted and became the enforcement arm of the Gulf cartel, and those guys are all dead. The only time they received training by the U.S government was when they were in the Mexican Army. Now the Zetas hire ex-military and ex-inteligence opperatives from around the world to train their members.

Also there is know way that I think that the U.S government is behind this performing some sort of experiment in kidnapping and torture. Could it be ex-military people doing this, maybe, but not the government.
 
Interesting thoughts, all.

Could women be involved in luring the victims to their deaths? Very possibly. It would explain how seamlessly and easily the victims seem to disappear; they would, of course, be more willing to come with an attractive female stranger than some possibly threatening-looking male.

I think if one wants to take these cases head-on, one has to realize the weight of it all. How impossible it would be for this to be the work of merely one, or two, or even five or ten people.

It's mind-boggling.

Honestly, I don't know what to make of all these cases, when all is said and done. I have little doubt that many (perhaps the majority) of them are murders, but if so then this is truly the most bizarre instance of serial murder I've heard of. It's unprecedented. One cannot look for commonalities with previous serial murders, because this seems to be so far beyond anything else.

How do you commit serial murder on such a scale - across the country, dozens of victims, all very closely linked by cause of death and last circumstance seen, etc. - and not arouse any suspicion by LE? No FBI investigation. Nada.

Why are the coroners in virtually every single one of these cases so absurdly quick to rule them accidental drownings?

Why are the the only cops who are actively investgating these cases retired? What does that say about LE generally and why or why not they would want to uncover the "truth," if anything?

Why is the media, by and large, so silent about this? Sure, there was an outburst of attention in the spring of 2008 or so, but it died down after not too long. Now this is all seen as conspiracy, nonsense. Not credible.

Where are all the still-missing young college men who disappeared from a bar or party after being separated from friends, i.e. who seem to fit into the "smiley face" killer M.O.? I propose that they are not necessarily long-deceased, their body/remains still undiscovered. More likely is that these particular individuals put up a fight in the process of being adbucted/attacked; the perps then decided it was too much of a risk to dump the body in the water as with all the others, as there would be clear signs of struggle pointing to foul play. Not what these guys want. They've been uncannily good at "hiding" evidence of foul play thus far.

How many of the victims had traces of GHB in their blood? Dan Zamlen was one. I know there are others, but can't recall at the moment. This, in itself, is reason enough to be suspicious. GHB is not a common recreational drug. Frankly, it's far more often used as a weapon than a drug ("date rape drug", etc. as everyone knows). I highly doubt your average college kid considers getting drunk and taking GHB a fun night out on the town.

As always, more questions than answers.
 
I feel as if my mention of it being Catholic was written incorrectly. What i mean is an offbranch of a group of either catholics, lutherans (which i am), or another religious group, sorry if i offended. What i still do feel is that this is some sort of initiation, with their being different circumstances and "new" things added to certain cases and not continued with the next set of drownings. Here is a local ad from my town which is a possible SFK attempt.

http://www.wqow.com/story/15167423/man-jumps-into-river-to-escape-alleged-attackers-in-eau-claire

I just am interested in why it was a single attack from two people, doesnt convince me it was an attempted robbery, even though there are past issues.
 
jeffries, I've always thought a woman was involved, or a man who looks like a woman. Many of these men look very strong, fit, and would have fought hard against an assault.

I think there is someone(s) who for some reason hate this class of people - young handsome college students who are alone at night after drinking - and they lure them into a car and then somehow cause them to drown without any visible marks. I don't know what kind of drugs could be administered to render these men helpless, so when tossed in a body of water they would drown and there would be no evidence of drugs on the autopsy.

But that's what I think happened. A woman like person lured the men into the car, they were then rendered incapacitated, and then tossed into water to drown.

But aren't these men usually highly intoxicated? I am not sure how hard someone is going to fight in that condition. So if somebody has killed at least some of these men, then it doesn't necessarily has to be another man doing it.
 
I feel like there are both women and men involved here..The Josh S video is really important to this case and I think if there is other videos out there,we need to look at them all and see if there is a connection on any of them..I can not find a thread just for the videos,I know there is at least 3 of them from 3 different young men's disappearances.I saw the Josh and Brain Shaffer ones.Does anyone know where anymore are?
 
A friend mentioned yesterday that she is just now noticing a lot of young men have been dying by "accidental drowning after night clubbing". I told her it has been going on a while, we know here in the U.S. and in Canada and I think all these may be web based, sort of like flash mobs are. I have nothing to base that idea on, just a thought that came to me, there are some messed up people out there, as flash mobs would show although not as bad as these murders are.

I have to wonder if this is happening in every other Country and we are just not aware.
 
I do believe that many of these deaths are accidental.

I just don't believe they ALL are.
 
Who could do these awful crimes?
Who hates the U.S. and vows to destroy it and the Western cultures?
Who is organized and skilled in grab and kill techniques?
Who can operate and go undetected?
Who is interested in engineering students and the information they may have about nuclear power?
Who could carry out these crimes for so long and not be caught?


Gee, I couldn't possibly guess...
 
Smiley face killers may be stalking college men
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-05-21/...rious-deaths-killers-nypd-officer?_s=PM:CRIME

"It's so widespread. We have so many different victims in so many different areas," Duarte said. "It would, in my view, be impossible to be one person."

Looks like the work of more than one person, likely multiple people in the respected areas where they occurred.

"The type of person that would be the opposite, not smart, someone not good in school, maybe doesn't have a job, not popular," Duarte said.

Gannon and Duarte believe that the young men were drugged to weaken them and given a substance that couldn't be detected by an autopsy.


Probably a person who is angry at the world. Likely a person who did not get to go to college, but wanted to.

Profile Of The Killer(s)
Male in his 20s to 30s
Smart, but does not have college education
Has issues of anger and jealousy
May work in a team
Driven by revenge

Smiley Face Patterns
http://surfdete.ipower.com/patterns.html
 
Interesting thoughts, all.

Could women be involved in luring the victims to their deaths? Very possibly. It would explain how seamlessly and easily the victims seem to disappear; they would, of course, be more willing to come with an attractive female stranger than some possibly threatening-looking male.

I think if one wants to take these cases head-on, one has to realize the weight of it all. How impossible it would be for this to be the work of merely one, or two, or even five or ten people.

It's mind-boggling.

Honestly, I don't know what to make of all these cases, when all is said and done. I have little doubt that many (perhaps the majority) of them are murders, but if so then this is truly the most bizarre instance of serial murder I've heard of. It's unprecedented. One cannot look for commonalities with previous serial murders, because this seems to be so far beyond anything else.

How do you commit serial murder on such a scale - across the country, dozens of victims, all very closely linked by cause of death and last circumstance seen, etc. - and not arouse any suspicion by LE? No FBI investigation. Nada.

Why are the coroners in virtually every single one of these cases so absurdly quick to rule them accidental drownings?

Why are the the only cops who are actively investgating these cases retired? What does that say about LE generally and why or why not they would want to uncover the "truth," if anything?

Why is the media, by and large, so silent about this? Sure, there was an outburst of attention in the spring of 2008 or so, but it died down after not too long. Now this is all seen as conspiracy, nonsense. Not credible.

Where are all the still-missing young college men who disappeared from a bar or party after being separated from friends, i.e. who seem to fit into the "smiley face" killer M.O.? I propose that they are not necessarily long-deceased, their body/remains still undiscovered. More likely is that these particular individuals put up a fight in the process of being adbucted/attacked; the perps then decided it was too much of a risk to dump the body in the water as with all the others, as there would be clear signs of struggle pointing to foul play. Not what these guys want. They've been uncannily good at "hiding" evidence of foul play thus far.

How many of the victims had traces of GHB in their blood? Dan Zamlen was one. I know there are others, but can't recall at the moment. This, in itself, is reason enough to be suspicious. GHB is not a common recreational drug. Frankly, it's far more often used as a weapon than a drug ("date rape drug", etc. as everyone knows). I highly doubt your average college kid considers getting drunk and taking GHB a fun night out on the town.

As always, more questions than answers.



Great post. But when it came to the Dan Zamlen case,I always thought his "friends" were covering something up. There was vomit on the backseat of one of Dan's female friends that he was last with that night and she just came of like she was covering something up.
 
Hello All,

I'm not sure what's going on either, but it's clear to me it is something that goes beyond young men being intoxicated and inexplicably going into a body of water. It seems these cases are primarily in the midwest, northerly states (PA/NY) and Canada. There are obviously plenty of bodies of water in other areas adjacent to plenty of colleges and bars and yet one does not see such a frequency of "accidental drownings" -- certainly there are plenty of colleges in FL, TX and other coastal states where this does not occur on a regular basis.

How this can be missed by even the most ardent "it's the alcohol stupid" theorists is strange to me. I have no stake in any particular theory, I just know something is amiss when I see it.

After all, how does one explain what happened to Chris Jenkins. In my mind his case illustrates that alcohol alone cannot be the culprit in all of these cases. There are extremes in thought on both sides of the spectrum and in between lies the truth.

I'm glad this forum is here so that we can express our thoughts without risking unnecessary sarcasm and unbridled anger. The quote that comes to mind is:
The obscure we see eventually. The completely obvious, it seems, takes longer.
( Edward R. Murrow)

Though I know there are some who believe the "obvious" is simply college kids drinking and then somehow stumbling into a river, there are just as many who sense something nefarious is happening. I never depend on the police to unravel these kinds of complex cases. They are too busy just handling their day to day work. Only a tiny fraction of detectives possess the energy, intellect, diligence, intuition, education, training, resolve and drive to tackle that which is so out of the ordinary.

Meanwhile, I'm deeply troubled that these "accidental drownings" continue to occur at such an alarming rate, in spite of police and community efforts to prevent them. Kudos to all who have devoted themselves to looking for patterns and missing pieces to these incidences. My own two cents is that some sort of sedating drug may have been put into some of the drinks by predators. I never knew how many perpetrators there are who enjoy sexually assaulting and murdering young men.
 

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