Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #3

Devon · Jan 2, 2009

dearmont said:
So, possible ways that Caylee, bless her, may have died:
1) drowning
2) overdose
3) chloroform
4) beaten to death
5) heat exhaustion in the back of the car/trunk
6) poisoning from ingesting household chmicals
7) shaken to death
8) strangulation/suffocation
9)....more?

so, my question is - why the duct tape around her mouth - and all around the back of her head??? What purpose would that have served is she were already dead???:waitasec:

Certainly not 'beaten to death' as there was no antimortem trauma to the bones and probably not strangulation as there is a small bone in the throat (can't remember what it's called) that is frequently fractured during strangulation.

As for the duct tape being on the mouth/around her skull - this is just hearsay at present.

Sdavidson11 · Jan 2, 2009

I remember reading an interview regarding KA and chloroform. One of her friends is a Vet. tech and animal Dr's have a use for this and keep it in the office. Since we know how KA sometimes borrows things that don't belong to her , it is possible this was the case. I am not sure what to think without more evidence as to what happened to sweet Caylee. We need another doc dump.

ibyoungr · Jan 2, 2009

dearmont said:
So, possible ways that Caylee, bless her, may have died:
1) drowning
2) overdose
3) chloroform
4) beaten to death
5) heat exhaustion in the back of the car/trunk
6) poisoning from ingesting household chmicals
7) shaken to death
8) strangulation/suffocation
9)....more?

so, my question is - why the duct tape around her mouth - and all around the back of her head??? What purpose would that have served is she were already dead???:waitasec:

Cindy evidently had her hands around Casey's neck the night before. (daugther like mother) Neighbors and friends testify to Casey's temper(Casey heard yelling profanities at her mom). Not a far stretch to think she suffocated Caylee (LE took the small round pillow as evidence) The duct tape would have occurred after the suffocation to make it look like a kidnapping. (Casey would have gotten this idea from a movie or episode of from tv.)

ibyoungr · Jan 2, 2009

Bern said:
Ok, maybe I wasn't clear. If you are unconscious, and then someone duct tapes your nose and mouth, you probably wouldn't need to tie the hands, as the person is going to die in there very deep sleep. Chloroform is very easy to get on line. NG's staff got it in less than a few minutes, at least were able to order it. I don't think KC got her's on line, maybe she made one batch, or got it from friends. You have to store it in a glass container. But if you killed someone with it, you would dump it down the sink, I would think, when you are done.

I would think if Casey was using Chloroform on a regular basis or even once there would be traces found in other unusual places... like the backseat or on the steering wheel or in the house. I just think this is too much work and thought for a lazy, immature mom. Grab a pillow to shut the kid up is more her style. The cholorform searches were found to have been performed after a visit to a MySpace page... Ric had that picture regarding chloroform... she did not know what it was and looked it up. I am sure on those pages it showed how to make a recipe.

ibyoungr · Jan 2, 2009

Devon said:
Certainly not 'beaten to death' as there was no antimortem trauma to the bones and probably not strangulation as there is a small bone in the throat (can't remember what it's called) that is frequently fractured during strangulation.

As for the duct tape being on the mouth/around her skull - this is just hearsay at present.

Is this same bone broken during SUFFOCATION?? I would think not. Strangulation with hands and suffocation with a pillow are 2 different ways to die and should be on seperate items.

Salome · Jan 2, 2009

ibyoungr said:
I would think if Casey was using Chloroform on a regular basis or even once there would be traces found in other unusual places... like the backseat or on the steering wheel or in the house. I just think this is too much work and thought for a lazy, immature mom. Grab a pillow to shut the kid up is more her style. The cholorform searches were found to have been performed after a visit to a MySpace page... Ric had that picture regarding chloroform... she did not know what it was and looked it up. I am sure on those pages it showed how to make a recipe.

I agree with those of you in this thread (and on others) that think the chloroform searches have nothing to do with the murder of Caylee. There is a clear explanation for how the search came up -- the myspace cartoon about chloroform. As Bessie (I think) and others posted -- KC surfed/searched for 12 minutes, and in those 12 minutes went from chloroform to self-defense to household weapons to neck breaking, etc. That is not enough time to do detailed reading and actually learn how to make chloroform, if you ask me. We have no evidence released that she came back to any chloroform site at a later date. It is very plausible to me that she did not know what the chemical was and so didn't really get the joke; she looked it up, and then started on a chain of related searches or clicks.

The only evidence is the higher level of chloroform in the trunk (and the search months before)-- a possible explanation given for that was the mixing of various cleaning chemicals when the trunk was cleaned, and possibly also the mixing with that of pool chemicals (IF Caylee was wet or in her wet swimsuit when killed).

I've never bought the idea that KC used chloroform repeatedly--given how easy it is to put kids out with cold medicine -- which actually knocks them out for a longer time than chloroform, which is not long-acting--it makes no sense given everything we know about her personality. Neither does her making a batch of chloroform (a lot of work and ingredients) just to use the one time to kill Caylee.

Just my added opinion to all the interesting theories here.

ibyoungr · Jan 2, 2009

Salome said:
I agree with those of you in this thread (and on others) that think the chloroform searches have nothing to do with the murder of Caylee. There is a clear explanation for how the search came up -- the myspace cartoon about chloroform. As Bessie (I think) and others posted -- KC surfed/searched for 12 minutes, and in those 12 minutes went from chloroform to self-defense to household weapons to neck breaking, etc. That is not enough time to do detailed reading and actually learn how to make chloroform, if you ask me. We have no evidence released that she came back to any chloroform site at a later date. It is very plausible to me that she did not know what the chemical was and so didn't really get the joke; she looked it up, and then started on a chain of related searches or clicks.

The only evidence is the higher level of chloroform in the trunk (and the search months before)-- a possible explanation given for that was the mixing of various cleaning chemicals when the trunk was cleaned, and possibly also the mixing with that of pool chemicals (IF Caylee was wet or in her wet swimsuit when killed).

I've never bought the idea that KC used chloroform repeatedly--given how easy it is to put kids out with cold medicine -- which actually knocks them out for a longer time than chloroform, which is not long-acting--it makes no sense given everything we know about her personality. Neither does her making a batch of chloroform (a lot of work and ingredients) just to use the one time to kill Caylee.

Just my added opinion to all the interesting theories here.

Thanks for your validation! Bolded above (by me) especially makes sense.
What saddens me the most is some of the "theories" have been probably far worse than whatever was done to Caylee.

Hope for the Best · Jan 2, 2009

Before the body was discovered, my thoughts were that she made chloroform or something more elaborate, but given how lazy she was with the disposal of the body, I think she just did what was easy. She probably either threw Caylee in the pool and let her drown, or else she suffocated her with a pillow. Or, I'd believe the strangulation theory as well. That would actually make the most sense because it would be the ultimate way to get back at CA for putting her hands around KC's neck. She is, after all, a spiteful b%*ch.

Lanie · Jan 2, 2009

dearmont said:
I have a genuine question, and I'll freely admit upfront that I have not gone through all of the 494 posts on WS mentioning Chloroform to see if this has been already addressed - so mea culpa up front on this - but, can anyone tell me how or where an individual - particularly a not-so-bright individual can purchase chloroform? I see many references to chlorine and it's chemical reactions to other chemicals to produce chloroform and post about pool water breaking down inside a body but from what I can reseach, these are really hard to do. I will provide a link that shows how difficult it is
http://designer-drugs.com/pte/12.162.180.114/dcd/chemistry/chloroform.html

This link is probably not considered by WSr's as reliable and I'm not offering it as such but it does mention the difficulty for an individual to purchase chloroform - if you can even find it. I live on a farm and raise livestock, none of my vet supply houses sell it - so - any thoughts?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_you_can_buy_chloroform

Bolded by me.
But do they have it? I don't think Casey bought it, I think she either stole it, or someone gave it to her.
I don't think she got it from her mother, because it isn't used in medicine anymore. I found a couple of references to it being used in tatto parlors, so maybe it came from the place she was getting her tattoos from. ( I would love to find the date of the tattoo before the bella vita tattoo.)
People have been throwing out the theory of Annie working for a vet, but I have no clue if vets even carry it.
I just find it hard to believe Casey sees a reference to chloroform on myspace, looks it up on her computer, and just a few months later she has a missing daughter (later found dead with no before death trauma to the bones), chloroform in her trunk, and there is no relation.
Lanie

manatee · Jan 2, 2009

I've felt that she use the chloroform to make Caylee unconscious so that she would not sufffer in the pool. So she knocked her off with the chloroform put her in the pool (hoping to fake a drowning). Changed her mind about the drowning. placed her somewhere in the backyard for a couple of days and thend dumped where she was found.

kiki the parrot · Jan 2, 2009

Irish_Eyes said:
Cross posted on the sticky thread for 6/16...

Sorry if someone has noticed this already, but if so, I haven't seen it. On the calendar thread, it shows the "flurry of calls" on 6/16 after 4pm...for some reason, I couldn't quote it to post it here. I have heard people suggest that either these were panicky "what do I do?" calls, or that they were KC's way of making sure GA and CA were not quite on their way home yet and that the coast was clear. Here's what I noticed today...
The calls begin around 4:10...the last one, to GA is at 4:18....these still ping near A's house until the 4:18 somewhere on Chickasaw trail. By the 4:25 ping, she is pinging near AL's....Looking at the other times she has made this trek, I think it's about a 15 min drive from TL to CA/GA. It could even be longer, because the pings would still show at the A's even up to a few miles away, and the pings would show AL's up to a few miles before she arrived, and vice versa, correct??? But being conservative, let's say it's a fifteen minute drive...this means that when the first call in the flurry started, she was likely pulling out of her driveway to be pinging near AL at 4:25...

That means before 4:10 she's not only had to kill Caylee (if you go with that theory as I do), she's also had to place her in the trunk, get her purse, keys, laptop, cellphone, maybe change clothes and/or pack a bag...whether this all took her two minutes, or ten, etc., I now have a harder time seeing these as "cry for help" calls...because if she did all of these things after the calls, there is no way she is pinging near AL's at 4:25...and it doesn't make sense to think she said "I need help!" then went and did all these things, put Caylee in the car and then said, well, all that's done...guess I'll call for help now...calling for help is an urgent, immediate action...Anyone agree?

(bold mine) No. IMO you've just stated the case for a flurry of panicked calls for help, versus checking to ensure no one's on their way who might "catch her in the act" of killing Caylee there at the house--since according to you calls continued after she'd left the house. After which, when repeated calls continued to be ignored, KC may have simply lost all hope--along w her nerve--and begun contriving a cover-up. JMO

Angelfire said:
Love through the eyes of a child

mommy i can't see you when i close my eyes
and the rag on my face made it hard not to cry
i tried to be good and stay out of your way
so you could visit the men that you loved every day
mommy please just don't put me in that dark old place
it's hard to breathe with that rag on my face
sometimes i get sick and i cry all alone
i could call god if i just had a phone
he wouldn't leave me, he'd stay right here
and with him holding my hand i wouldn't feel any fear
mommy i love you why don't you love me
you're not a nice mommy when you don't want to be
i can hear you coming to open the trunk
i smell the smell and i know you are drunk
i may be inside but my soul is not here
it has gone to a place where there will be no more fear
i know what you did and you know, i don't mind
i'm in heaven now and everyone's kind
i glow from the love that comes from the heart
we can't be together, we will just be apart
but while you are thinking of the lies you will tell
just remember mommy you will end up in hell!

the truth shall set you free...but in the anthonys case...the truth shall set your butt in jail!

Irish_Eyes said:
Very, very potent, angelfire...

(bold mine) Yet hardly thru the "eyes of a child" as children by nature are, in my experience, not the least vindictive but rather incredibly forgiving.

Hercule Poirot said:
Nagging in the back of my mind is the Greta walk through and C & G dismissing the fact that they had recently dug up and replanted a palm. That would successfully cover/explain a patch of the garden that had recently been dug. That could be a clue that KC at least made an attempt to dig a hole. I imagine she was too lazy to get very far, so never actually buried Caylee. It could also be a an example of blatant obfuscation by C & G?

Agree. This coincidental 'landscaping' struck me as rather oddly timed as well. JMO

dearmont said:
So, possible ways that Caylee, bless her, may have died:
1) drowning
2) overdose
3) chloroform
4) beaten to death
5) heat exhaustion in the back of the car/trunk
6) poisoning from ingesting household chmicals
7) shaken to death
8) strangulation/suffocation
9)....more?

so, my question is - why the duct tape around her mouth - and all around the back of her head??? What purpose would that have served is she were already dead???:waitasec:

A desperate, inept attempt (postmortem) to distance herself from responsibility for negligence by creating the appearance of an especially heinous random murder perpetrated by a stranger. Also, it would seem (along w strangulation) unlikely that the cause was (4) or (7) either given there actually was never any indication by anyone that KC had ever previously been the least violent whatsoever w Caylee but a consensus to the contrary. JMO

Lavanda Dolce said:
Another thought. Why would she bury Caylee right away? That means every moment she was out and about someone could have happened upon Caylee's body. Her plan of the babysitter would have fallen through had the law found a body BEFORE a child was declared missing. right? I don't think she would have done that. I believe she kept Caylee for a few weeks in the trunk until the smell could not be covered anymore. THEN proceeded to the burial site. Was it already flooded by that time? Let's say a two days before the car was discovered is when she buried Caylee. I find it hard to believe she just up and layed Caylee in a bag right there on the ground w/o burying her for cover. Did she bury her in a swampy watery area and as the water came over the next few months it swept the bag from the original resting place? These are my thoughts.

Faye didn't even make landfall (in Naples FL) until August 19/20. While I agree Caylee's remains may have been left in trunk several days or as much as a week before she felt she couldn't possibly risk any longer possible discovery of remains in her trunk, I personally believe at this point KC disposed--vs buried--those remains in a location which, prior to Faye appeared readily discoverable, had they not been submerged, w/in a matter of weeks, beneath three feet of water. JMO

Devon said:
Certainly not 'beaten to death' as there was no antimortem trauma to the bones and probably not strangulation as there is a small bone in the throat (can't remember what it's called) that is frequently fractured during strangulation.

As for the duct tape being on the mouth/around her skull - this is just hearsay at present.

ITA

Lanie · Jan 2, 2009

ibyoungr said:
I would think if Casey was using Chloroform on a regular basis or even once there would be traces found in other unusual places... like the backseat or on the steering wheel or in the house. I just think this is too much work and thought for a lazy, immature mom. Grab a pillow to shut the kid up is more her style. The cholorform searches were found to have been performed after a visit to a MySpace page... Ric had that picture regarding chloroform... she did not know what it was and looked it up. I am sure on those pages it showed how to make a recipe.

I don't think she used the chloroform on Caylee more than maybe the one time. I do think, however, the chloroform found in Casey's trunk came from actual chloroform Casey had in her possession, and I don't think she made it.
As far as the pic on RM's myspace, do we know Casey didn't come across this pic in her chloroform search and forward it to Ricardo?
I doubt Casey was worried about Ricardo from a myspace pic. At least one of the friends (fuzzy memory) said Ricardo was a very laid back person.
Casey could have done a more extensive chloroform search on a different computer. I just find it much more believable the chloroform came from Casey than Casey saw a pic about it, looked it up, killed her child, no trauma (antimortem? where did I just see that word :crazy

to the bones, and chloroform just happened to be in the trunk of her car, but has nothing to do with any of the above.
Lanie

Indigo · Jan 2, 2009

manatee said:
I've felt that she use the chloroform to make Caylee unconscious so that she would not sufffer in the pool. So she knocked her off with the chloroform put her in the pool (hoping to fake a drowning). Changed her mind about the drowning. placed her somewhere in the backyard for a couple of days and thend dumped where she was found.

Note: Please don't read if you are sensitive to murder vs. accident theory. This post contains theorizing on my part which may be disturbing to some posters.

I totally agree, manatee. I believe Casey used chloroform to anesthesize Caylee. (much deeper sedation and quicker acting than the sedation caused by cold medicines,etc.) I think it was done so Caylee wouldn't "suffer." After she sedated Caylee, I believe she taped her mouth (just in case) and left her to drown in the bathtub, while she made a call to Amy as an alibi. I think Caylee's body was wrapped (upstairs in the bedroom) and placed in bags at that time. Anyone seeing Casey going out to the yard would have thought she was simply setting out trash or doing yard work.

I believe Casey may have set up the pool ladder as an "out" in case she later had to go with an accidental drowning and cover up. After all, if Caylee's body had been found earlier, cause of death probably could have been determined. This is JMO.

Rumpole · Jan 2, 2009

Salome said:
I agree with those of you in this thread (and on others) that think the chloroform searches have nothing to do with the murder of Caylee. There is a clear explanation for how the search came up -- the myspace cartoon about chloroform. As Bessie (I think) and others posted -- KC surfed/searched for 12 minutes, and in those 12 minutes went from chloroform to self-defense to household weapons to neck breaking, etc. That is not enough time to do detailed reading and actually learn how to make chloroform, if you ask me. We have no evidence released that she came back to any chloroform site at a later date. It is very plausible to me that she did not know what the chemical was and so didn't really get the joke; she looked it up, and then started on a chain of related searches or clicks.

The only evidence is the higher level of chloroform in the trunk (and the search months before)-- a possible explanation given for that was the mixing of various cleaning chemicals when the trunk was cleaned, and possibly also the mixing with that of pool chemicals (IF Caylee was wet or in her wet swimsuit when killed).

I've never bought the idea that KC used chloroform repeatedly--given how easy it is to put kids out with cold medicine -- which actually knocks them out for a longer time than chloroform, which is not long-acting--it makes no sense given everything we know about her personality. Neither does her making a batch of chloroform (a lot of work and ingredients) just to use the one time to kill Caylee.

Just my added opinion to all the interesting theories here.

I agree whole heartedly.
Chloroform "searches" easily explained.
Chloroform in trunk easily explained.

I don't think it should be raised at all by prosecution, it would be no trouble for the defence to show REASONABLE DOUBT if it were.
Of course it's all on if any trace can be found in Caylee's hair or bones.

Lavanda Dolce · Jan 2, 2009

manatee said:
I've felt that she use the chloroform to make Caylee unconscious so that she would not sufffer in the pool. So she knocked her off with the chloroform put her in the pool (hoping to fake a drowning). Changed her mind about the drowning. placed her somewhere in the backyard for a couple of days and thend dumped where she was found.

To me, that would seem to risky that the other neighbors could see or she could have been happened upon while in the act and how could she say Caylee fell in if there is duct tape around her mouth? I think the duct tape was put on after, or, away and nowhere near the pool. I also wonder if in her frenzy she herself put the pool ladder down as a "back up" story in case she was caught? Wanting people to think Caylee went up and drowned on her own. Here are photo's of the backyard/pool area.

Lavanda Dolce · Jan 2, 2009

ibyoungr said:
Cindy evidently had her hands around Casey's neck the night before. (daugther like mother) Neighbors and friends testify to Casey's temper(Casey heard yelling profanities at her mom). Not a far stretch to think she suffocated Caylee (LE took the small round pillow as evidence) The duct tape would have occurred after the suffocation to make it look like a kidnapping. (Casey would have gotten this idea from a movie or episode of from tv.)

Daughter like mother? That is quite the comparison. I totally disagree. While Cindy may come across as in severe denial, of which I believe she was...she certainly is not like her daughter Casey. She was a victim in this. Perhaps the only mistake was that she didn't tighten her grip on Casey the night before...or so the rumor goes, if in fact she did have her hands around her neck.

Lavanda Dolce · Jan 2, 2009

Indigo said:
Note: Please don't read if you are sensitive to murder vs. accident theory. This post contains theorizing on my part which may be disturbing to some posters.

I totally agree, manatee. I believe Casey used chloroform to anesthesize Caylee. (much deeper sedation and quicker acting than the sedation caused by cold medicines,etc.) I think it was done so Caylee wouldn't "suffer." After she sedated Caylee, I believe she taped her mouth (just in case) and left her to drown in the bathtub, while she made a call to Amy as an alibi. I think Caylee's body was wrapped (upstairs in the bedroom) and placed in bags at that time. Anyone seeing Casey going out to the yard would have thought she was simply setting out trash or doing yard work.

I believe Casey may have set up the pool ladder as an "out" in case she later had to go with an accidental drowning and cover up. After all, if Caylee's body had been found earlier, cause of death probably could have been determined. This is JMO.

I'm pretty close to agreeing with your entire theory. It's a blend of mine, as well. This also would explain the backing up of the car into the driveway...of which the neighbor said nobody has ever done before.

Rumpole · Jan 2, 2009

Lanie said:
Bolded by me.
But do they have it? I don't think Casey bought it, I think she either stole it, or someone gave it to her.
I don't think she got it from her mother, because it isn't used in medicine anymore. I found a couple of references to it being used in tatto parlors, so maybe it came from the place she was getting her tattoos from. ( I would love to find the date of the tattoo before the bella vita tattoo.)
People have been throwing out the theory of Annie working for a vet, but I have no clue if vets even carry it.
I just find it hard to believe Casey sees a reference to chloroform on myspace, looks it up on her computer, and just a few months later she has a missing daughter (later found dead with no before death trauma to the bones), chloroform in her trunk, and there is no relation.
Lanie

I have stated my view that chloroform likely not used or easily argued against in court, but just for the sake of disscussion: a possible source of chloroform is CA from work. I worked in a lab many years ago and we still have small amounts of solvent etc at home, used to wipe off sticky residues when labels removed etc. Chloroform is not a solvent I chose at the time, but it was available. I know, again many years ago, A&E at local hospital used chlorofom to remove a plastic spray-on dressing I had over stitches. Perhaps chemists {Drug Stores} sell chloroform? Chlorine solvents are out of favour since "global warming" hysteria, but may still be available.

Skully · Jan 2, 2009

ibyoungr said:
I would think if Casey was using Chloroform on a regular basis or even once there would be traces found in other unusual places... like the backseat or on the steering wheel or in the house. I just think this is too much work and thought for a lazy, immature mom. Grab a pillow to shut the kid up is more her style. The cholorform searches were found to have been performed after a visit to a MySpace page... Ric had that picture regarding chloroform... she did not know what it was and looked it up. I am sure on those pages it showed how to make a recipe.

I don't think she was using it on a regular basis, I think she was using cough meds, then xanax, then the Chloroform was the last thing, she may have done this one time, and it was the last time; we don't know. We do know there were hight amounts in the trunk. We know there were searches on the computer, we know it was on RM, web site. We think, some kids use it as a high. Like I said, it is a guess, but I think she did this to put her out and then to smother her with the duct tape, I think they call it a soft kill. I think she may have been thinking of it and that day was the day she acted on those thoughts. She doesn't look very upset at blockbusters that night with TA.

Lavanda Dolce · Jan 2, 2009

By the way, my daughter is a nurse in Ohio. She told me that it is a "big thing" for 20-something year olds to make chloroform to use to soak marijuanna in and then to dry it out. It gives a crazier high. Those party-hardy kind of folks are also known to soak it in formeldehyde, dry and roll and smoke. So, I believe chloroform is much more commonly used among those in that party crowd and Casey herself took advantage of it to use on Caylee. Obviously if it is a "new trend" it's not that hard to make...or buy....and kind of explains the "myspace" "chloroform comment" threads. Just a thought.

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