trial thread: 3/15/2012

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myzzy said:
BBM- The truth, the whole truth. Thats what I feel she should say. I would want to know everything vs just snips of it. She admitted to the murder but he has not and if we dont have the whole picture i dont think that a fair trial would have been given do you?

She has lied, she has skirted the truth ( if that is the truth ) and she is no way a crediable witness in my opinion and I want nothing but closure for the family and for justice to be served to those involved.

Tori's whole case is heartwrenching and hit way to close to home for so many people, Tori could have been anyones child
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Lied about what as it relates to Tori's abduction and murder? We see her luring Tori from school, we see her at HD purchasing garbage bags and hammer, there were evidence photos shown to the jury. The jury will get to go to Mt. Forest to visit the crime scene. They got to see the surveillance video of the abduction. We haven't even gotten to forensics yet.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that whatever TLM said is true (as it relates to Tori's abduction and murder). The rest of the stuff, I couldn't give a rat's arse about. How many times she drugged herself, or about her stripper mother, ......don't care!
 
antiquegirl said:
Most of TLM’s testimony (so far) is not evidence either – it’s merely her word against his, especially about conversations between only the two of them, and things she allegedly saw and heard without other witnesses. Her self-admitted history as a liar speaks for itself. She has admitted "flashbacks" to her own abuse. She has a long record in a short life of violence and crime. Her almost life-long drug abuse raises questions about her rationality and memory. She has given several reasons to suggest she bore some hostility towards MTR, and thus a motive for throwing him under the bus. I think the defence won’t have a tough time raising the jury’s doubts about her reliability as a witness.

JMO
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Respectfully snipped (again) ;)

I always figured TLM was the one who had it in her to do the killing and strongly suspected she laid the fatal blows, but I was blown away that she actually admitted to it. I will go on record right now to say, I was wrong about her "hope" in getting out early through the Faint Hope Clause.

Also, since I am coming "clean", I figured none of the players were talking OxyContin as prescribed, by mouth and with a glass of water, never in my dreams did I suspect they were shooting it into their veins. IMO, her mother should be on trial answering for her parenting methods too. Mother and daughter are truly pieces of "works".
 
~n/t~ said:
Lied about what as it relates to Tori's abduction and murder? We see her luring Tori from school, we see her at HD purchasing garbage bags and hammer, there were evidence photos shown to the jury. The jury will get to go to Mt. Forest to visit the crime scene. They got to see the surveillance video of the abduction. We haven't even gotten to forensics yet.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that whatever TLM said is true (as it relates to Tori's abduction and murder). The rest of the stuff, I couldn't give a rat's arse about. How many times she drugged herself, or about her stripper mother, ......don't care!
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For my part, I don't believe she said any of those things to Tori, I don't think she ever said 'i'm sorry' or that she 'didn't go out that morning thinking she would abduct someone' or that she meant it when she told Tori she would make sure she got home, or that she ignored MR when he talked about abduction. I don't know how she can make herself look like she is sympathizing with the victim when she was the one that delivered the death blow.

I think maybe perhaps that's what people are feeling she isn't telling the truth.
 
On the first day of her testimony Tuesday, McClintic said she was the one who wielded the hammer after the sexual assault of Tori prompted flashbacks to her own childhood traumas. Superior Court Judge Thomas Heeney cautioned the jury on the use of prior inconsistent statements, saying that if a lie is repeated 100 times, it doesn't make it true.

"There might be a temptation for you to conclude that because Ms. McClintic said something on at least one occasion then said the same thing on subsequent occasions that it is more likely to be the truth," Heeney said. "That would be an improper and an illogical conclusion to draw."

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/15/michael-rafferty-trial_n_1346817.html
 
Hello_Kitty said:
Didn't we hear from her evidence that 'she was instructed to do so' in connection with buying the hammer.
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am980
McClintic was asked by Rafferty Togo in and purchase a hammer and some garbage bags. Tori still covered in the back seat.

Rafferty used a PetroCanada ATM near the Home Depot to get cash so his debit card couldn't be traced there. Gave McClintic the money.

Tori asked McClintic not to get out of the car. She said she didn;t want to be alone with Rafferty.

McClintic used the self serve check out. She didn't know why Rafferty wanted the hammer or garbage bags.

McClintic said to herself she would not let anything happen to Tori. She got back in the car and they left the Home Depot.

McClintic didn't know where they were going. She starts to get emotional on the stand. She didn't ask for help at the Home Depot

McClintic says Rafferty told her they could not just keep Tori, and they could not take her back. People would be looking for her
 
"I said that I would take the fall for everything, that I would say it was all me, that he had more to lose than I did," McClintic said.

She further told him, "he had a life, a job, things going for him and I was just, I really had nothing," court heard. "I said don't worry about it, it's OK. It's OK. I'm just an 18-year-old junkie anyways"

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/15/michael-rafferty-trial_n_1346817.html

What job did she think he had? He had things going for him? Like what I wonder? Constant access to drugs? JMO
 
myzzy said:
BBM- The truth, the whole truth. Thats what I feel she should say. I would want to know everything vs just snips of it. She admitted to the murder but he has not and if we dont have the whole picture i dont think that a fair trial would have been given do you?

She has lied, she has skirted the truth ( if that is the truth ) and she is no way a crediable witness in my opinion and I want nothing but closure for the family and for justice to be served to those involved.
Click to expand...

I think she's telling the truth about the abduction and murder. Whether or not she's hiding the extent of her role in planning it, her motives, or what she got out of it, I don't know, and I don't really care. I suspect that TLM has spent most of her life making it up as she goes, and that "the whole truth" is a foreign concept to her. So even if she were entirely cooperative and desperate to reveal all, I'm not sure she'd be able to do it -- drug-induced haze aside.

I can't think of any genuinely complicated case where anything like the "whole truth" is available. Offenders lie about motivations, degree of responsibility, details of their actions, role of victims, and on and on. I can't stomach any extra detail at this point. But I can't imagine TLM lying about that day itself -- too much corroborating evidence and the sheer weirdness of some of it. I really do think it's as close to the "whole truth" as we're gonna get -- especially with the additional evidence in place.

I think she'll do poorly in the cross though. Not that it will make a difference (I sincerely hope).

s
 
matou said:
[I]"I said that I would take the fall for everything, that I would say it was all me, that he had more to lose than I did," McClintic said.[/I]
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Snipped and bolded by me:


I'm wondering, (aside from being terribly misguided about what one would do for love, not that he was much in love with her, but she thought she was with him) why she would take the fall for him. She knew what jail might be like, she had already been in juvie. I'm wondering if jail was the last stop for her. Indeed she had nothing, her mother for all accounts was and addict who was on the point of dying, she would have had no one, she would have had to go her own way in the world with no one to lean on.m I'm wondering if she thought she might be better off in jail and that's why she was willing to take the fall for everything, until she found out he had another chickie, then she decided confess to his part.
 
Hello_Kitty said:
Snipped and bolded by me:


I'm wondering, (aside from being terribly misguided about what one would do for love, not that he was much in love with her, but she thought she was with him) why she would take the fall for him. She knew what jail might be like, she had already been in juvie. I'm wondering if jail was the last stop for her. Indeed she had nothing, her mother for all accounts was and addict who was on the point of dying, she would have had no one, she would have had to go her own way in the world with no one to lean on.m I'm wondering if she thought she might be better off in jail and that's why she was willing to take the fall for everything, until she found out he had another chickie, then she decided confess to his part.
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I can't believe she would take the fall for a child adbuctor, molester, rapist and murderer. SHe would be fine with him "out there" and available to continue his behaviour on other possible victims. That just disgusts me in additition to everything else. He shows her homes of single moms he knows to suggest tying them up and he "has a life?" WTH???? JMO
 
My claim that TLM is a habitual liar has been proven over and over.

  • She lied to LE about being involved in Tori’s abduction when first arrested on another charge.
  • She lied to her mother about where she was on the evening of April 8th.
  • She lied to MTR when she told him she would take the rap for him.
  • She lied to LE when she initially told them that MTR murdered Tori.
  • She has written several pages in a journal full of nothing but lies.
All this has been presented as evidence. It would be a safe bet that these were not her only lies – before or after the crime. How can she possibly be found credible?

How can we know for sure whose plan the abduction actually was? How do we know that it was his idea and not hers to scope out townhouses and schools prior to this? How can we believe that MTR helped her with the alibi entries? How can it be proven that he told her Tori wasn’t young enough? How do we know it wasn’t her idea to buy the hammer? In other words, all conversations that took place between them, as claimed by TLM, are a “he said/she said” situation. No witnesses, no proof.

But most importantly, how do we know yet that Tori was indeed sexually assaulted by MTR? So far, we only have TLM’s horrific testimony. I’m not saying I don’t believe it – only that she is not a credible witness and we have yet to see any actual direct evidence.

As to why she would lie? We have heard that LE persuaded her to confess by telling her that MTR was dating other women. Jealousy is a good motive. Here are a few Tweets from the trial to suggest others:

Cristina Tenaglia‏@cristina_CHCHTV

Made me "feel down on myself, like I was this horrible person" when she shared with #rafferty her criminal past
Click to expand...

Linda Nguyen‏@LindaNguyenPN

McC says at times, #Rafferty made her feel "horrible" bc he acted like he was better than her #ToriStafford
Click to expand...

Adrian Morrow‏@AdrianMorrow

When she told Rafferty about the warrant, McClintic says, he told her "it's like Lucifer meets a bible-thumper." #ToriStafford
Click to expand...
Waiting for physical evidence to support TLM’s testimony. I have an open mind.

JMO

ETA: And yes, I know that MTR is legally guilty if he participated in any way in the abduction, whether or not he abused Tori, or killed her. This is not the point of my post.
 
AG, I have trouble believing just the statements of TLM alone as well (like a lot of trouble :eek:). I trust that the Crown has much more to corroborate her story than just her story alone.

:moo:
 
....I think Tori's Dad is right on when he said we may NEVER know the TRUTH as Victoria is the only voice and so horrible the way her life was taken i ....makes me sick every time I see a a honda civic drive by I get the CREEPS ! It is the sadest story I ever read ....I agree with you Matou....like WTF life was he going to continue ????...raping and assaulting single mom's ...OMG ...I am speachless....R.I.P Tori ...robynhood.
 
matou said:
"I said that I would take the fall for everything, that I would say it was all me, that he had more to lose than I did," McClintic said.

She further told him, "he had a life, a job, things going for him and I was just, I really had nothing," court heard. "I said don't worry about it, it's OK. It's OK. I'm just an 18-year-old junkie anyways"

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/15/michael-rafferty-trial_n_1346817.html

What job did she think he had? He had things going for him? Like what I wonder? Constant access to drugs? JMO
Click to expand...

This is why you don't do drugs with your daughter!
 
flipflop said:
am980
McClintic was asked by Rafferty Togo in and purchase a hammer and some garbage bags. Tori still covered in the back seat.

Rafferty used a PetroCanada ATM near the Home Depot to get cash so his debit card couldn't be traced there. Gave McClintic the money.

Tori asked McClintic not to get out of the car. She said she didn;t want to be alone with Rafferty.

McClintic used the self serve check out. She didn't know why Rafferty wanted the hammer or garbage bags.

McClintic said to herself she would not let anything happen to Tori. She got back in the car and they left the Home Depot.

McClintic didn't know where they were going. She starts to get emotional on the stand. She didn't ask for help at the Home Depot

McClintic says Rafferty told her they could not just keep Tori, and they could not take her back. People would be looking for her
Click to expand...

Thank you FF.

Not a question directed at you FF (but if you have the answer to this too, great!!) other than the picture of TLM on the bed at the motel, were there pictures or cctv footage of MTR entered in as evidence?
 
~n/t~ said:
I'm curious. What more do people need to know? Dear God, what I heard so far from TLM was enough to haunt me for the rest of my life. Do we need to know how much more this poor child suffered? Was the brutality as described by TLM not enough evidence of what Tori suffered?

Maybe RS doesn't believe TLM killed Tori and both TLM and MR had a part in her murder and perhaps he believes TLM is protecting MR in some way so he doesn't get convicted of 1st degree. Or perhaps some of his questions were answered. I don't know.

I'm questioning those here that still think there is more. What do you think the murderer hasn't said already that you feel she should?
Click to expand...

To me it doesn't matter which one held the hammer or did the kicking. They are both guilty of abduction and murder. MR is most likely guilty of sex assault but for that they will need something more than the corroborating evidence such as the surveillance videos and the bank withdrawal.


TLM did not mention that MR used a condom so I am praying that there is some of his DNA somewhere with Tori's body and in the garbage bag.
If Tori went pee somewhere I am praying that somehow there is MR's dna in that path of grass. But that is wishful thinking on my part.

If he wasn't planning on killing her what was he going to do with her?

My opinion is that the Crown is doing a great job of backing up TLM's testimony with the photos of the clothes, hair dye, photos of clothing, Home Depot video etc. I am surprised we haven't seen the bank machine withdrawal video yet but that along with bank records will corroborate TLM's testimony.
 
flipflop said:
am980
McClintic was asked by Rafferty Togo in and purchase a hammer and some garbage bags. Tori still covered in the back seat.

Rafferty used a PetroCanada ATM near the Home Depot to get cash so his debit card couldn't be traced there. Gave McClintic the money.

Tori asked McClintic not to get out of the car. She said she didn;t want to be alone with Rafferty.

McClintic used the self serve check out. She didn't know why Rafferty wanted the hammer or garbage bags.

McClintic said to herself she would not let anything happen to Tori. She got back in the car and they left the Home Depot.

McClintic didn't know where they were going. She starts to get emotional on the stand. She didn't ask for help at the Home Depot

McClintic says Rafferty told her they could not just keep Tori, and they could not take her back. People would be looking for her
Click to expand...

Thanks. That is what I thought but when I was reading the tweets it was so surreal.
 
KMouse said:
To me it doesn't matter which one held the hammer or did the kicking. They are both guilty of abduction and murder. MR is most likely guilty of sex assault but for that they will need something more than the corroborating evidence such as the surveillance videos and the bank withdrawal.


TLM did not mention that MR used a condom so I am praying that there is some of his DNA somewhere with Tori's body and in the garbage bag.
If Tori went pee somewhere I am praying that somehow there is MR's dna in that path of grass. But that is wishful thinking on my part.

If he wasn't planning on killing her what was he going to do with her?

My opinion is that the Crown is doing a great job of backing up TLM's testimony with the photos of the clothes, hair dye, photos of clothing, Home Depot video etc. I am surprised we haven't seen the bank machine withdrawal video yet but that along with bank records will corroborate TLM's testimony.
Click to expand...
bbm, ita that they will have to back up everything that TLM says with evidence to corroborate her version of events. With the delay today we could even see her testimony continue thru monday as she was to testify all week iirc?
 
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