IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #24

Alliecog said:

I've definitely seen some fake IDs that look like, feel like and are practically the real thing. I've also seen bouncers look very closely and take their time examining the IDs... And they still get it. Yes I'm talking more about the student-oriented bars downtown. I've mentioned before, very early on that I was at sports the night LS disappeared, but I left about 15 minutes before she got there. That night was very busy considering it was the summer, and my friends and I commented about how many underage kids there clearly were.

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Well, I guess we know how they make their money during the summer when things slow down!

For some reason, the Sports news has me excited. I know it isn't much, but at least LE knows the answers to some of the theories and questions we have been talking about. I wonder if she was "frothing" or being carried out or being thrown out violently like people have been saying.

Alliecog -- That's interesting that you said Sports was very busy because I read a news report citing one of the bartenders saying it was a slow night (I can dig up the article later). Were you there that night? I had always assumed the article was correct, but given how inaccurate some of the press reports have been, an eyewitness would definitely trump a reporter who wasn't there!

Jupiter812 said:

Well Sports will just have to do a better job of hiring, training, and staying on top of the fake ID business because they did not that night. Just like the underage student takes a risk with a fake ID, so does the business take a risk in being too lenient. But erring on the side of caution cuts into Sports profits and now those profits will have to go to paying the fines which I hope are huge. They let the wrong girl in that night.

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IMO as long as they hire college kids to do this job (and most university bars seem to), they will ALWAYS run this risk. The bouncer may take this job very very seriously, until his best friend's little sister wants to come in, or his underage girlfriend. It's human nature perhaps. I think it goes beyond hiring and training. I think it's about responsibility. This is a a HUGE risk, so to really avoid it, someone more vested in the business may need to handle this position/responsibility, like perhaps - the owner himself.

I also think that sometimes human error is involved, as opposed to just leniency. When you have a long line of people waiting, I can see where it may be easy to miss someone's height/weight, if the ID looks real, it's authenticated with proper watermarks/seals, and the photo is obviously her. I'm not excusing this. I am merely saying that sometimes people make mistakes by missing important details.

Very important to consider...


If the height/weight is off, my guess is that this ID was a REAL ID, not a manufactured one. If she was getting a fake one made, she'd likely have put her own actual features listed. Therefore, this tells me that she went to the DMV with the proper requirements, and assumed someone else's identity. That's not all that difficult to do.

I just googled and it's VERY easy in IN. (The rules don't appear to have changed from back when I was in college over 20 years ago....no I didn't get a fake ID but I did replace mine). You need 1. proof of identity and a US Birth Certificate is accepted (no photo), 1 proof of social security number, 1 proof of lawful status in US (birth certificate again), and 2 forms of proof of residency (a utility bill and bank statement are sufficient). So, you see anyone could take in a friend's (Jane Doe's) documents and say that she lost her license. She has all of the proper forms with no photo. They assume it's really Jane Doe. LS walks out with Jane Doe's license, which now shows LS's photo. Jane Doe now has her old license (which would be considered the "lost" one). Therefore, she needs to wait a couple of weeks and return to the DMV, saying she lost her license yet again (to make LS's copy null and void). She goes through the process, pays the fee, and now has her OWN current license with her OWN photo. IF LS would ever be caught, Jane Doe would have to lie to get out of trouble, saying LS stole her identity. It happens all of the time. I think this is more likely what happened than LS having used her sister's because....


I just googled and to replace a NY ID, you can submit photocopies of identification and do it through the mail. The problem for her is that they just REPLACE the ID, so therefore they would have sent her a duplicate of her sister's ID (using her sister's photo on file). This could be perhaps what LS did, assuming LS looks similar to her sister (other than height/weight). Whatever license she received, it would have the original photo on it. That's how they do it in my state too.

I think rather than providing Band-Aids for the problem (by fining the bars and kids), they need to look deeper and make it not so easy to replace a license. I think that replacing the license, using the photo ON FILE is a great idea. Not all states do this, obviously.

While I agree that Kilroy's has some responsibility -- and I'm glad that the excise folks are filing charges -- I also agree that there's other areas of responsibility.

Certainly personal responsibility -- the kids who are underage KNOW they're underage and that they're breaking the law. Many parents simply look the other way, but in reality, how do we help young adults learn to accept responsibility for their own actions when we bail them out and condone illegal activity. And where does the line get drawn? What sort of illegal activity is OK... and what is not? I always felt like my kids needed more guidance than having me turn my head!

Friends have a responsibility to each other... to protect each other and to tell each other when they're being stupid...

And... the University and community have a responsibility. It's time to enforce some consequences that actually work toward changing behavior!

Skigirl said:

Alliecog -- That's interesting that you said Sports was very busy because I read a news report citing one of the bartenders saying it was a slow night (I can dig up the article later). Were you there that night? I had always assumed the article was correct, but given how inaccurate some of the press reports have been, an eyewitness would definitely trump a reporter who wasn't there!

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I remembered reading that too. If it's true, it should produce better videotapes and eye witness reports. Hope so.

Given what Alliecog said about all the young-looking people there that night it seems LS may not have been an isolated case. Even tho they let her in, I wonder if she showed signs of being intoxicated and if so, why did they serve her?

I'm thinking that it being summer and 3 years since the owner had her last citation they may have become a little lax. I dunno. But Sports holds at least 700 people (too big imo) and it is the perfect match for Smallwood which also holds about 700 I think. In fact, Sports and SW sometimes team up and sponsor parties for SW residents. Perhaps this type of relationship is not the healthiest and safest.

Many people in the community and IU believe that she promotes the party culture and atmosphere. Given the size of her establishment and the fact that she has 3 bars in Bloomington, it's a wonder she hasn't been cited more times, so perhaps she is careful and cares.

I found this quote from USA Today, I think it was when IU rec'd the infamous #1 party school "prize": "We're No. 1 in many categories here at Indiana," she says. "We're good at a lot of things, including partying. ... It's a social adventure. It's part of going to college."

(Personally I wouldn't brag about Indiana being #1 in many categories. I think some of those may be in things like smoking and obesity, infant mortality, etc.)

Skigirl said:

Alliecog -- That's interesting that you said Sports was very busy because I read a news report citing one of the bartenders saying it was a slow night (I can dig up the article later). Were you there that night? I had always assumed the article was correct, but given how inaccurate some of the press reports have been, an eyewitness would definitely trump a reporter who wasn't there!

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Well I was there relatively early considering it was a weekend (by college standards lol) and I was surprised at how busy it was early on. It is possible that the bartenders felt it was slow later on in the evening, during the school year sports is very very busy all the time (which is why I usually only go in the summer). It was earlier in the summer and there are definitely less students in Bloomington, so all the bars are pretty empty compared to the numbers they get during the school year. Hope that clears up any confusion.

Jupiter812 said:

Given what Alliecog said about all the young-looking people there that night it seems LS may not have been an isolated case. Even tho they let her in, I wonder if she showed signs of being intoxicated and if so, why did they serve her?

I'm thinking that it being summer and 3 years since the owner had her last citation they may have become a little lax. I dunno. But Sports holds at least 700 people (too big imo) and it is the perfect match for Smallwood which also holds about 700 I think. In fact, Sports and SW sometimes team up and sponsor parties for SW residents. Perhaps this type of relationship is not the healthiest and safest.

Many people in the community and IU believe that she promotes the party culture and atmosphere. Given the size of her establishment and the fact that she has 3 bars in Bloomington, it's a wonder she hasn't been cited more times, so perhaps she is careful and cares.

I found this quote from USA Today, I think it was when IU rec'd the infamous #1 party school "prize": "We're No. 1 in many categories here at Indiana," she says. "We're good at a lot of things, including partying. ... It's a social adventure. It's part of going to college."

(Personally I wouldn't brag about Indiana being #1 in many categories. I think some of those may be in things like smoking and obesity, infant mortality, etc.)

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Why not serve her?It is not like kilroys has anything to fear from the excise police.While approximately 120 citations have been issued at kilroys over the last 18 months the police seam to make sure they issue the tickets outside the bar.This way the police look as though they are doing their job and the bar gets in no trouble.While I do live in another state I have worked the door at bars for a lot of years and never saw the police conduct such an operation.There job was to make sure I did my job and was able to spot phoney ID's.On many occasion they would send an underage person to the door to see if they got served.After all we were the ones with the liquor license and thus the one supplying the alcohol.

http://www.jgmobile.net/article/20110703/NEWS07/110709875/1026/LOCAL04&template=mobileart

Also in the rare cases when the police are almost forced to cite the bar (had to go back to 2006) apparently the punishment is nothing.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-151061675.html

That IS very unusual, I wonder who the backer is for a policy that only seems to give a slap on the hand to Kilroy's?

Thanks Alliecog

I sometimes wonder if LS ultimate destination that night was Sports to be around people and be social and have some fun, with perhaps a secondary motive of meeting up with CR. Some sources report that she was looking for friends in Smallwood after midnight to go to Sports but no one wanted to go. Have you heard this?

Also, once inside do you think underage students are so bold as to pay for drinks with a debit or credit card?

thanks

-holly

mamamia54 said:

That IS very unusual, I wonder who the backer is for a policy that only seems to give a slap on the hand to Kilroy's?

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Mamamia
I hear you, but when I was in my early twenties, the drinking age in my state was 21. I wanted to take my 19 yo sister along to a bar to hear a band. We didn't even plan to drink. We never thought beer was worth the calories lol. We borrowed our 23 yo cousin's drivers license for her. As you can guess, we were busted for this and our cousin lost her drivers license for 6 months and was fined, which we paid. We were both so mortified about getting our cousin in trouble and never borrowed an id again. So in this case a big fine to the OWNER of the ID will speak loudest to the students and will be the most effective in curbing the real problem.
IMO
holly

An Interesting Read

Bouncer at Kilroy’s Sports Bar is crowd favorite

It’s 4 p.m. and Roger Willemin, the bouncer at Kilroy’s Sports Bar, asks two guys for their IDs, putting it up to the natural sunlight.

Bouncers are the gatekeepers to the bar social life because they are the ID checkers, the doormen and the people who let you in.

Roger is every guy’s best bro and every girl’s best friend. He’s your first sighting at the bar that becomes a familiar face after many visits.

He’s the stranger whom students think they know, and a man who will watch your back if someone tries to start a fight.

He said it’s part of his job description.
http://tinyurl.com/6f93b5a

IMHO Sports is nearly irrelevant to what happened that evening. Sports might serve as a PR target to give LE someone to charge with something (like serving a minor) to make it appear they are active in this case but in the bigger picture what does Sports itself really have to do with LS' disappearance?

Sure, she was at Sports, but it wasn't the last place she was at. We've never heard Sports wasn't cooperating with LE and they would be in a position to provide video (I assume) and some eyewitness accounts of what occurred there. It's very unlikely if rumors of OD are true that it had anything to do with what a bartender would've served there.

So, go ahead and charge Sports with serving a minor but it doesn't make this case any closer to being solved. In fact, I have to wonder if the ID she allegedly used to get into Sports should be anywhere except locked in an evidence locker, not being handled and used for charges against Kilroy's at this time.

holly2325 said:

Thanks Alliecog

I sometimes wonder if LS ultimate destination that night was Sports to be around people and be social and have some fun, with perhaps a secondary motive of meeting up with CR. Some sources report that she was looking for friends in Smallwood after midnight to go to Sports but no one wanted to go. Have you heard this?

Also, once inside do you think underage students are so bold as to pay for drinks with a debit or credit card?

thanks

-holly

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When I was in college, credit cards weren't as commonplace among students, but I never paid for my drinks - that's what boys were for. Has that changed? My guess was that she wouldn't have been buying her drinks.

I remember once when a guy offered to buy me a drink (after my bf had moved away and proposed to me). I felt guilty and said, "Well, I'm engaged." He replied, "Well I just wanted to buy you a drink. I didn't want to marry you." :floorlaugh:

Some interesting discussion lately at the JRNTT uncensored site (whose author, I can't help thinking/noticing, seems very interested in pointing at everyone other than JR). The final post at the predecessor site (which I assume was run by someone else) initially struck me as obviously a breakdown of some sort, but rereading it later it seemed almost as clearly a lucid, if textually off-the-wall, attempt to telegraph some content (or a theory, as it appears the author has no privileged info).

Gabby66 said:

When I was in college, credit cards weren't as commonplace among students, but I never paid for my drinks - that's what boys were for. Has that changed? My guess was that she wouldn't have been buying her drinks.

I remember once when a guy offered to buy me a drink (after my bf had moved away and proposed to me). I felt guilty and said, "Well, I'm engaged." He replied, "Well I just wanted to buy you a drink. I didn't want to marry you." :floorlaugh:

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That's funny. So Gabby how did this all end up????
1. pass drink marry bf
2. pass drink pass bf
3. agree to drink pass bf
4. agree to drink marry bf

Lately I've been researching the courses of study of those who seem to be most closely involved in Lauren's social group. MB for instance, his course of study was telecommunications & Marketing. This course would require him to be very analytical in his thinking, in other words, he would have or wish to have the who, why, when and where to identify customers or profile customers in order to sell a product or service.

Put that sort of mind, together with the SPEA studiers, which would include enviornmental, public health, criminal justice and public affairs and we seem to have a real problem when a young woman is missing and they are the last group to have seen her alive.

I'm attempting to process all this at the moment.

mamamia54 said:

Lately I've been researching the courses of study of those who seem to be most closely involved in Lauren's social group. MB for instance, his course of study was telecommunications & Marketing. This course would require him to be very analytical in his thinking, in other words, he would have or wish to have the who, why, when and where to identify customers or profile customers in order to sell a product or service.

Put that sort of mind, together with the SPEA studiers, which would include enviornmental, public health, criminal justice and public affairs and we seem to have a real problem when a young woman is missing and they are the last group to have seen her alive.

I'm attempting to process all this at the moment.

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Im glad ur looking at this-ive wondered myself