Possibly related cases (GB4, Manorville, Bittrolff victims, & others)

Originally Posted by truthspider View Post
There is no known data that indicates the perp had prior contact with his victims.

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Peter Brendt said:

Mind to give us a link to that data? Or tell, what kind of data it is?

Peter

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I think you may be having a hard time understanding what I stated. I said there is no evidence that we know of ("no data") that indicates the victims had prior contact with their killer, by prior contact I mean has met them before or spoke to them before the day that he setup their meeting and met with them. It is 100% pure speculation on the part of WS posters that there was prior contact between the two parties.

It is the posters who are stating or speculating that there was prior contact that should be providing a link or data to back up their claims. I'm stating that there is no information that can lead us to conclude there was prior contact.

truthspider said:

I think you may be having a hard time understanding what I stated. I said there is no evidence that we know of ("no data") that indicates the victims had prior contact with their killer, by prior contact I mean has met them before or spoke to them before the day that he setup their meeting and met with them. It is 100% pure speculation on the part of WS posters that there was prior contact between the two parties.

It is the posters who are stating or speculating that there was prior contact that should be providing a link or data to back up their claims. I'm stating that there is no information that can lead us to conclude there was prior contact.

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Sorry, it was late and somehow I missed that "no". No reason to get all tangled up. However, the behavior points out, Amber knew that john before. Only, that this john wasn't the killer. I think, there it is, where the misunderstanding is.

Peter

Peter Brendt said:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/cops_eyed_in_slays_fOv6EUeWKQ9Qdo6bOn5zcJ

That's one article about those two cops who popped up when they went through Megan's phone records. I forgot which of them was later identified as the last john. It's somewhere in this thread or another LISK thread, I remember somewhat foggy, we went through this loop already three or four times.
So to me, the situation looks as

- Maureen last heard of from the bus terminal. Every idea of another john that night following that phone call to friends is pure speculation and there is not one bit of evidence, not even circumstantial she pulled off another trick.

- Melissa Barthelmy had one john that night. She obviously did take her phone with her and there is no indication the john asked her not to. That one, as articles reported a bit ominous was identified but LE didn't publish his name. As far as I got it together, it appears one of those two cops in the article earlier, but that contradicts her boyfriend who said (only after she was found there) the john was on LI.

- Megan Waterman, disappeared from the hotel in Haupauge. Didn't take her phone with her, indicating, she knew that john and was sure, he is not dangerous, which again means, he had earlier contacts with her and therefore was in her phone records or her Craigslist contacts. The interesting thing is, Megan was in femdom, which means, her clientele had not much overlap with the other girl's customers.

-Amber Costello didn't take her phone either. Which means, maybe, maybe, maybe, this could indeed be the same one as Megan's last john. Same pattern. But he can't be the same as Melissa's last John and obviously also not Maureen's last john because that one met Maureen in a hotel room in Manhattan. So entirely different behavior.

Maureen wasn't lured, that's pretty clear. She was probably blitz-attacked, maybe with a little ruse. The guy who comes with a cold cigarette "do you have fire?" and boom or something like that.
The point I doubt is, that the other ones lured. I think rather, someone stalked them and attacked them on the way back from those different last johns.

Peter

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Sorry I can't bold on the iPad.....referring to Amber and Megan's last johns as possibly being the same guy. Yes, that was what I was getting at. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

The person that attacked Maureen and/or Melissa could have been posing as a john or out right attacked them after stalking them. Maureen would not have had to call anyone because she was right where the acton is.

For Megan and Amber he could have been posing as a john (or an actual john), to lure them out w/o their phones. Or another person could have stalked them and killed them. I understand that if the john is the killer that his number would likely be in the phone records. It is possible that it is there/him and LE doesn't have enough evidence yet. Or he is a tech wiz and disappeared somehow......I don't know if that is possible or not, as I am not a tech wiz.

Most importantly, I'd like to make the point that all of this is speculation and none of us know what actually happened to Maureen and Melissa between the time they left their last john and the time they were thrown in the bramble at GB.....other than the fact that they were killed. We also don't know exactly what happened to Megan and Amber. We can not say for sure it was a john or was not a john, that is my understanding. These are theories. MOO

P.S. thanks for the link to the article about those 2 cops.

I once worked at an upscale building in Manhattan. Very famous buiilding that you would recognize immediately. I was up on the executive level of the building (I think 53rd floor). The view from the building is sick. This was about 5 years ago and camera phones were not as "standard" as they are now. Well we were not allowed to bring a cell phone that had a camera or any camera up on that floor becase the owner of the building actually "owned" the view and taking a picture while standing in his building was forbidden and you could be sued for copy right infringment if you were caught by security cameras or security themselves. You were immediately escorted out of the building if caught taking a picture of this magnificent view. Pretty crazy right?

This may be out of right field but this may give us some insight as to "leave your phone home". Could have used the "I am very important and cannot risk being identified" or (spider will love this) "I own the view from my beach house and you can't take pictures from it"

Peter Brendt said:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/cops_eyed_in_slays_fOv6EUeWKQ9Qdo6bOn5zcJ

That's one article about those two cops who popped up when they went through Megan's phone records. I forgot which of them was later identified as the last john. It's somewhere in this thread or another LISK thread, I remember somewhat foggy, we went through this loop already three or four times.
So to me, the situation looks as

- Maureen last heard of from the bus terminal. Every idea of another john that night following that phone call to friends is pure speculation and there is not one bit of evidence, not even circumstantial she pulled off another trick.

- Melissa Barthelmy had one john that night. She obviously did take her phone with her and there is no indication the john asked her not to. That one, as articles reported a bit ominous was identified but LE didn't publish his name. As far as I got it together, it appears one of those two cops in the article earlier, but that contradicts her boyfriend who said (only after she was found there) the john was on LI.

- Megan Waterman, disappeared from the hotel in Haupauge. Didn't take her phone with her, indicating, she knew that john and was sure, he is not dangerous, which again means, he had earlier contacts with her and therefore was in her phone records or her Craigslist contacts. The interesting thing is, Megan was in femdom, which means, her clientele had not much overlap with the other girl's customers.

-Amber Costello didn't take her phone either. Which means, maybe, maybe, maybe, this could indeed be the same one as Megan's last john. Same pattern. But he can't be the same as Melissa's last John and obviously also not Maureen's last john because that one met Maureen in a hotel room in Manhattan. So entirely different behavior.

Maureen wasn't lured, that's pretty clear. She was probably blitz-attacked, maybe with a little ruse. The guy who comes with a cold cigarette "do you have fire?" and boom or something like that.
The point I doubt is, that the other ones lured. I think rather, someone stalked them and attacked them on the way back from those different last johns.

Peter

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Peter you posted that "those two cops who popped up when they went through Megan's phone records."
You got that wrong, it was NOT Megan it was Maureen who's last contact was a NYPD officer!

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/cops_eyed_in_slays_fOv6EUeWKQ9Qdo6bOn5zcJ

That's one article about those two cops who popped up when they went through Megan's phone records.

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Could you please provide a link to the above info? because I have never heard anything about that there was found any connection between any police officers and Megan Waterman.
It was through the investigation of Maureen Brainard-Barnes, and the computer she had used, that LE found that a NYPD officer was the last contact of Maureen's.

Here is the info:

http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/201...fficer-last-contact-murder-victim-sources-say

Quote:
"A Connecticut call girl killed by a Long Island serial killer who found her through Craigslist was contacted by an NYPD officer shortly before her death"


Quote:

"Maureen Brainard-Barnes, 25, of Norwich, CT., was last seen at a 46th Street hotel.


When Brainard-Barnes disappeared in 2007, Connecticut detectives came to Manhattan and went through her computer.

What they discovered was that the officer, who lived on Staten Island, was one of the last people to contact her through Craigslist."

I forgot which of them was later identified as the last john. It's somewhere in this thread or another LISK thread, I remember somewhat foggy, we went through this loop already three or four times.

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As far as I know those NYPD "TWO police officers" was never connected to any of the GB4 victims, but due to that they had a history with offending prostitutes they were looked at.

So to me, the situation looks as

- Maureen last heard of from the bus terminal. Every idea of another john that night following that phone call to friends is pure speculation and there is not one bit of evidence, not even circumstantial she pulled off another trick.

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And the idea that there was no other john that night following that phone call to friends is ALSO pure speculation.

And there is neither one bit of evidence, not even circumstantial that she didn't pull off another trick!

- Melissa Barthelmy had one john that night. She obviously did take her phone with her and there is no indication the john asked her not to. That one, as articles reported a bit ominous was identified but LE didn't publish his name. As far as I got it together, it appears one of those two cops in the article earlier

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How do you come to that conclution? and could you provide a link if that was ever indicated by the press?

, but that contradicts her boyfriend who said (only after she was found there) the john was on LI.

- Megan Waterman, disappeared from the hotel in Haupauge. Didn't take her phone with her, indicating, she knew that john and was sure, he is not dangerous

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That is pure speculation! Waterman might have left her phone behind because he asked her to and offered her lots of money and tolf her a lie he was a VIP of some sort, or a lie that he was a police officer etc etc.

, which again means, he had earlier contacts with her

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Again pure speculation!

and therefore was in her phone records or her Craigslist contacts. The interesting thing is, Megan was in femdom

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Do you have a link to the info , or a quote from one of her adds, that she was into femdom?

, which means, her clientele had not much overlap with the other girl's customers.

-Amber Costello didn't take her phone either. Which means, maybe, maybe, maybe, this could indeed be the same one as Megan's last john. Same pattern.

But he can't be the same as Melissa's last John and obviously also not Maureen's last john because that one met Maureen in a hotel room in Manhattan. So entirely different behavior.

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AGAIN pure speculation! who says that a "John" and/or "SK" can´t change their ways of how and what kind of location they meet up with a prostitute?

Maureen wasn't lured, that's pretty clear.

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How is "clear" that Maureen was NOT lured ??? it's NOT clear, it's you speculating/theorizing.

She was probably blitz-attacked, maybe with a little ruse. The guy who comes with a cold cigarette "do you have fire?" and boom or something like that.
The point I doubt is, that the other ones lured. I think rather, someone stalked them and attacked them on the way back from those different last johns.

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You are of course entitled to your opinion, I do respect that.

But PLEASE STOP posting as if your theories and speculations are facts, because they are NOT.

And by now, I´m also pretty annoyed that you keep on posting as if you were a proffessional profiler which you are NOT.

Peter Brendt said:

She called two friends who couldn't drive her. That appears to be corroborated by her phone records. She didn't call anybody else it seems. So the theory, she called her own killer ... there is nothing to indicate, she knew her killer. And this thing with the $900 is only certain for Melissa. We don't know how much was the amount robbed from Maureen and I never found out, how those two stories were messed up.

Peter

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If it was her intention to go home and she was looking for a ride home but didn't call anyone else after she called her friends, then possibly she hailed a cab.

JMO

ETA: According to Terry, Melissa didn't accept her usual ride either:

"Terry, who law-enforcement sources say was Barthelemy's pimp, said she was very secretive about her plans that night and declined an offer for a ride. "This time she said no,"

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Regarding the phones, I see only a couple reasonable scenarios for leaving them behind. I do not see how a request to "leave your phone at home so we aren't disturbed" would fly; why couldn't she (any of the ladies) just silence or turn it off?
IMO, IF there was a request to leave the phone behind it would be for the supposed security/privacy of the "john", i.e. him being (or claiming) to be someone who had reason to fear pictures, etc. This could be a cop, politician, "VIP" or simply a married man. Not saying any person was a person of this nature, but that perhaps if that request was made, this was the reason he, the john, gave. But, since we have no info saying the ladies all saw the same client, I am not sure how much sense this makes. Though we do know the GB4 at minimum eventually ended up with the same person, somehow.

So, one other possibility that occurred to me is this: Again, this is IF anyone left their phone behind purposely. Who else could benefit from not being traceable/contactable by phone? The girls themselves- if perhaps they were trying to get away from their pimp/handler/"boyfriend" (I hate using that term for these guys no matter what they claim) and get out of the biz. What if the girls/some of the girls were in contact, by whatever method, with a person who claimed to be able to give them safe haven and help get them out? Perhaps that could explain the secrecy of some of the girls' interactions. They could have handled whatever last business, and then gone to meet this supposed good Samaritan. Leaving a phone behind might give them a bit more of a head-start from the pimp or whoever. If she had the phone, he would be wondering why she wasn't answering or returning calls/texts, and thus may not be alerted to her being missing as quickly.
I don't know. Just thinking aloud. I can see why/how a john would have requested no phone, but not too many reasons why the any of the girls would have agreed to that, even for a big payday.

Also, another factor that I do not think we are giving enough thought to is that these women were addicted to heroin (atleast Amber was). Heroin is not known for making its users think better. I have lost friends to this drug (either directly or indirectly) and it morphs your entire logic. A person addicted to this will do anything to get it if they are desperate. These girls may have been street smart but when you are on dope; any smarts are out the window.

Forgot to add, this could also explain why AC? or was it MB? were seemingly under-dressed, if they were going to meet someone other than a "john". No reason to get dressed and made-up if you're meeting someone other than a client, particularly if you are just trying to get out of Dodge, so to speak. And, MB, as mentioned above, declined her normal ride from JT. She would not need her normal ride if she wasn't planning on coming back. Could explain why she was so abnormally secretive about that night's "date" to JT.
Again, just thinking aloud.

LINative13 said:

Also, another factor that I do not think we are giving enough thought to is that these women were addicted to heroin (atleast Amber was). Heroin is not known for making its users think better. I have lost friends to this drug (either directly or indirectly) and it morphs your entire logic. A person addicted to this will do anything to get it if they are desperate. These girls may have been street smart but when you are on dope; any smarts are out the window.

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You are correct. What may seem illogical to me could have seemed plausible to someone under the influence. Considering that, perhaps they (or one/any of them) could have been convinced to come phone-less, at the request of a john or whoever.
So very frustrating :banghead:

I found this video posted on Feb 12, 2012. It is to honor Kim Raffo. It was supposedly posted by shannanmariagilbert. Why would anyone use Shannan's name to post?


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keIdtJoQJBw"]To Honor Kim Raffo-Please Help - YouTube[/ame]

BKS said:

I found this video posted on Feb 12, 2012. It is to honor Kim Raffo. It was supposedly posted by shannanmariagilbert. Why would anyone use Shannan's name to post?


To Honor Kim Raffo-Please Help - YouTube

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Wow. I instantly have an inkling as to who may have made that, but who knows. Good find!

LINative13 said:

I once worked at an upscale building in Manhattan. Very famous buiilding that you would recognize immediately. I was up on the executive level of the building (I think 53rd floor). The view from the building is sick. ...
(spider will love this) "I own the view from my beach house and you can't take pictures from it"

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What I like most about the view is not the "conservation area" where SG was found below, but what is just a few degrees above that, relax your ciliary muscles and look off in the distance: the U.S. Courthouse & Federal Building across the bay in CI. It's a profound structure with a heavenlike articulation of light, space and views, where ironically they decide if you are heading to a small, dark, hell like box in land locked upstate NY. The killer should have spent some time gazing back to the reality on the mainland, because Meier's baby has a great view of Oak Beach and it has recently developed a staring problem.

I'm sure upon arrival the perp will look up at the tall missile like rotunda and wish it was a rocket preparing to take him far away from his earthly troubles, in reality he will have to settle for an escape plan that includes a dirty prison bedsheet. It will be like the first day of school when he enters the building, and get's to see some of his fellow detainees (and extremely loyal clients) He shouldn't worry too much about not having anything to talk about with his new bunk mates though as there's no greenlight required to shut down a racist, child killing, raper.

rotten dingo said:

What if the girls/some of the girls were in contact, by whatever method, with a person who claimed to be able to give them safe haven and help get them out? Perhaps that could explain the secrecy of some of the girls' interactions. They could have handled whatever last business, and then gone to meet this supposed good Samaritan. Leaving a phone behind might give them a bit more of a head-start from the pimp or whoever. If she had the phone, he would be wondering why she wasn't answering or returning calls/texts, and thus may not be alerted to her being missing as quickly.

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RSBM.

Yes. The problem with this theory is that none of the GB4 appeared to be in oppressive or unhappy relationships with their pimps. I agree with the poster upthread who wrote that the pimp role is changing due to the Internet, especially for white middle or working-class women like the GB4.

Aleph said:

RSBM.

Yes. The problem with this theory is that none of the GB4 appeared to be in oppressive or unhappy relationships with their pimps. I agree with the poster upthread who wrote that the pimp role is changing due to the Internet, especially for white middle or working-class women like the GB4.

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There are likely lots of problems with it :crazy: just mulling over possibilities. However, I respectfully disagree with your first sentence, and would say IMO anyone working for/with/under a pimp is engaged in an oppressive relationship.

That aside, I cannot imagine any pimp being overly thrilled if one of his "girls" wanted a new job. Again, this whole idea may be, and likely is, completely wrong, but I'm okay with that. I figure 1000 bad ideas are worth considering if it ends up with even 1 clue to help resolve this.

BKS said:

I found this video posted on Feb 12, 2012. It is to honor Kim Raffo. It was supposedly posted by shannanmariagilbert. Why would anyone use Shannan's name to post?


To Honor Kim Raffo-Please Help - YouTube

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That video is somewhat strange - but maybe I'm missing the connection - did Shannan & Kim know one another? Apologies in advance if this is common knowledge - there are so many threads covering this case...

Did Kim & Shannan have a connection?

ScorpiosDaughter said:

That video is somewhat strange - but maybe I'm missing the connection - did Shannan & Kim know one another? Apologies in advance if this is common knowledge - there are so many threads covering this case...

Did Kim & Shannan have a connection?

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Someone may know something I am not aware of, but I do not know of a connection.
These seem like photos only someone very close to KR would have. Lots of recurring themes I've seen elsewhere, as well. This person, "shannanmariegilbert" on youtube, posted several other videos but deleted them or they are marked private.

ScorpiosDaughter said:

That video is somewhat strange - but maybe I'm missing the connection - did Shannan & Kim know one another? Apologies in advance if this is common knowledge - there are so many threads covering this case...

Did Kim & Shannan have a connection?

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The only connection that I know about is that they shared the same lifestyle and they were both living in New Jersey at the time they went missing.

BKS said:

The only connection that I know about is that they shared the same lifestyle and they were both living in New Jersey at the time they went missing.

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Not so BKS ... Kim was in New Jersey, Shannan was in New York.

sillybilly said:

Not so BKS ... Kim was in New Jersey, Shannan was in New York.

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Pardon? Shannan was living in Jersey City, N.J. when she went missing. She traveled to LI and disappeared while there seeing a client. Kim was living in Atlantic City, NJ when she went missing, she was found in Egg Harbor, NJ.