The cries for help

ILikeToBendPages · May 9, 2012

AJ Noiter said:
If this were the case you'd think he would've stated, on the phone with his girlfriend, that he saw the weapon. You'd also think that just because he thinks he lost sight of Mr. Zimmerman, he'd still be in a hurry to get home.

Side Note: Not sure about other carriers, but my weapon is in its holster when I put the holster on. I do not remove my weapon from that holster unless I am cleaning it or using it. With that said, it seems silly that someone would get out of a vehicle THEN put the weapon in the holster.[/Q

I never said he got out and put his gun in a holster. That is what you've said.

I said I thought, and it's my opinion , George got out of his truck, and put his gun in the waistband of his pants with his unzipped jacket over it. Many people do just that to reach their weapon easier and more quickly if needed. Especially if they don't want the a###### to get away. He had to have that courage to stalk on foot, with no power and authority, a person that he profiled as guilty in only his own mind.

Again it's my opinion, that when George re-appeared and confronted Trayvon that is was very likely he "showed" his gun and that is what started the struggle.

I don't think, and it's my opinion, Trayvon had time to say anything more than "why are you following me" then George saying what are you doing here and Trayvon seeing the gun.

It's my opinion and very likely Trayvon thought George was going for that gun and from that point on he was trying to get the gun to save his life.

In my opinion, Trayvon had every reason to be alarmed and now he would of had even more reason to be scared.

George may very well of been carrying it in his hand, but it's my opinion, Trayvon saw that gun and that is when he started fighting for his life. His stand your ground to save his life.

Why did George have a weapon on him if not to intimidate or detain Trayvon. George lost control of a situation that he himself created.

In my opinion, George killed a young boy because he's a bully. A self appointed gunslinger. A wanna be cop. I guess he wanted his "fellow" LE to pat him on the back for catching a bad guy.

Why diss Trayvon for not hurrying back? He was doing nothing wrong. He was going home talking on the phone. He wasn't the aggressor. He wasn't the one up to no good.

George was the one that got out of his truck armed, and it doesn't really matter if the gun was in a holster or up his butt. George screwed up. He needs to put on a pair and tell the truth and take his punishment.

AJ Noiter · May 9, 2012

ILikeToBendPages said:
I never said he got out and put his gun in a holster. That is what you've said.

I said I thought, and it's my opinion , George got out of his truck, and put his gun in the waistband of his pants with his unzipped jacket over it. Many people do just that to reach their weapon easier and more quickly if needed. Especially if they don't want the a###### to get away. He had to have that courage to stalk on foot, with no power and authority, a person that he profiled as guilty in only his own mind.

Again it's my opinion, that when George re-appeared and confronted Trayvon that is was very likely he "showed" his gun and that is what started the struggle.

I don't think, and it's my opinion, Trayvon had time to say anything more than "why are you following me" then George saying what are you doing here and Trayvon seeing the gun.

It's my opinion and very likely Trayvon thought George was going for that gun and from that point on he was trying to get the gun to save his life.

In my opinion, Trayvon had every reason to be alarmed and now he would of had even more reason to be scared.

George may very well of been carrying it in his hand, but it's my opinion, Trayvon saw that gun and that is when he started fighting for his life. His stand your ground to save his life.

Why did George have a weapon on him if not to intimidate or detain Trayvon. George lost control of a situation that he himself created.

In my opinion, George killed a young boy because he's a bully. A self appointed gunslinger. A wanna be cop. I guess he wanted his "fellow" LE to pat him on the back for catching a bad guy.

Why diss Trayvon for not hurrying back? He was doing nothing wrong. He was going home talking on the phone. He wasn't the aggressor. He wasn't the one up to no good.

George was the one that got out of his truck armed, and it doesn't really matter if the gun was in a holster or up his butt. George screwed up. He needs to put on a pair and tell the truth and take his punishment.

I do apologize, I'm pedantic about some things too. A correction to my statement would be to change the word "holster" to "waistband," and you would still have my opinion. It doesn't make sense for Mr. Martin to see the weapon and not say something.

LambChop · May 9, 2012

gxm said:
I agree. He appears to be the only witness who actually saw the confrontation clearly and IIRC his story hasn't changed.

How would his story change? He hasn't given any interviews other than the man at the door one. jmo

zenreaper · May 9, 2012

ILikeToBendPages said:
AJ Noiter said:

If this were the case you'd think he would've stated, on the phone with his girlfriend, that he saw the weapon. You'd also think that just because he thinks he lost sight of Mr. Zimmerman, he'd still be in a hurry to get home.

Side Note: Not sure about other carriers, but my weapon is in its holster when I put the holster on. I do not remove my weapon from that holster unless I am cleaning it or using it. With that said, it seems silly that someone would get out of a vehicle THEN put the weapon in the holster.[/Q

I never said he got out and put his gun in a holster. That is what you've said.

I said I thought, and it's my opinion , George got out of his truck, and put his gun in the waistband of his pants with his unzipped jacket over it. Many people do just that to reach their weapon easier and more quickly if needed. Especially if they don't want the a###### to get away. He had to have that courage to stalk on foot, with no power and authority, a person that he profiled as guilty in only his own mind.

Again it's my opinion, that when George re-appeared and confronted Trayvon that is was very likely he "showed" his gun and that is what started the struggle.

I don't think, and it's my opinion, Trayvon had time to say anything more than "why are you following me" then George saying what are you doing here and Trayvon seeing the gun.

It's my opinion and very likely Trayvon thought George was going for that gun and from that point on he was trying to get the gun to save his life.

In my opinion, Trayvon had every reason to be alarmed and now he would of had even more reason to be scared.

George may very well of been carrying it in his hand, but it's my opinion, Trayvon saw that gun and that is when he started fighting for his life. His stand your ground to save his life.

Why did George have a weapon on him if not to intimidate or detain Trayvon. George lost control of a situation that he himself created.

In my opinion, George killed a young boy because he's a bully. A self appointed gunslinger. A wanna be cop. I guess he wanted his "fellow" LE to pat him on the back for catching a bad guy.

Why diss Trayvon for not hurrying back? He was doing nothing wrong. He was going home talking on the phone. He wasn't the aggressor. He wasn't the one up to no good.

George was the one that got out of his truck armed, and it doesn't really matter if the gun was in a holster or up his butt. George screwed up. He needs to put on a pair and tell the truth and take his punishment.

Click to expand...

I am curious as to how many gun owners you know in order to come up with the idea that "many" gun owners carry a gun in their waistband? I assure you, as someone who DOES know a lot of gun owners and who carries themselves, I would NEVER EVER carry a gun in my waistband, ESPECIALLY if I was walking any distance.

You have also stated that TM "saw" the gun and went after it. This fails the logic test on two levels. First, and FOREMOST, if you see someone carrying a gun, and you "go for it", YOU have committed a crime. If you grab for MY gun, I will shoot you.

As to why GZ had a gun? Simple, he WANTED to. And in the UNITED STATES, that is all that is required.

"In my opinion, George killed a young boy because he's a bully. A self appointed gunslinger. A wanna be cop. I guess he wanted his "fellow" LE to pat him on the back for catching a bad guy."

I guess it was convenient for him that the boy decided to ATTACK GZ (my opinion, and the evidence points in that direction), giving him a reasonable excuse to do what you claim, with NO evidence, he wanted to do anyway.

highflyer · May 9, 2012

Am not sure who was screaming for help. The first thing that comes to mind is Trayvon yelling for help as it stopped as soon as he was shot. Keep coming back to the call that George made to the police though and the way it sounds as if someone is going down a list from the NWH manual. Screaming is in there too.

jjenny · May 9, 2012

LambChop said:
How could he not see him if TM was on top???? Maybe he met TM on one of his visits and knew what he sounded like. I don't know just that he felt the screaming was coming from TM. jmo

????
The 13 year old boy says he saw one person on the ground, not two.
He also never claimed to know Trayvon.

gxm · May 9, 2012

LambChop said:
I never read where any witnesses said TM was beating GZ, other than GZ saying so. It was pretty much wrestling on the ground. Big difference between fighting, wrestling and beating someone. jmo

The original comment includes a link to the witness' statement: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7891693&postcount=324"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The cries for help[/ame]

Here is the quote from the article linked in the original comment:

One man interviewed by a local Fox news station, who asked to be identified only as John, said he saw the man wearing a red jacket Zimmerman on the ground, being beaten by someone on top of him Trayvon.

"The guy on the bottom, who I believe had a red sweater on, was yelling to me 'Help, help,' and I told him to stop and I was calling 911. I got upstairs and looked down. The person that was on top beating up the other guy was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," he said.

BBM. The witness says that TM was "beating up" GZ. Not wrestling with him. Beating him up.

gxm · May 9, 2012

LambChop said:
How would his story change? He hasn't given any interviews other than the man at the door one. jmo

IMO, other "witness" stories are markedly different than their original 911 call(s).

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

Alecto · May 9, 2012

gxm said:
IMO, other "witness" stories are markedly different than their original 911 call(s).

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

I think this is especially glaring with Mary Cutcher who in the middle of March was saying that she knew it was the "little boy" who was shot and that TM was "half the size" of GZ. Those extra details are not true but because Mary Cutcher was a nearby earwitness her words got repeated by many as if she was authority. Even Congresswoman Corrine Brown's letter to Attorney General Holder quoted Cutcher.

Alecto · May 9, 2012

gxm said:
BBM

Does anyone know if TM had a young sounding voice, as in it had not changed yet? IMO, most male teens have passed that stage of puberty by the age of 17 but perhaps TM hadn't. I don't know. I just don't see how "sounds like the voice of a young male" is convincing evidence when the case involves a 17-year old and a 28-year old. I don't think pitch-wise that they'd sound much different, IOW they'd both sound like young men.

TM's mother has previously mentioned that TM's voice changed when he was fifteen:

Fulton, remembers when Trayvons voice seemingly deepened overnight and the summer when he was 15 and sprouted two strands of hair on his chin.

He just wanted to, you know, mature and he wanted to be a man and he was almost there, Fulton said.
http://insidedateline.msnbc.msn.com...ents-say-he-was-headed-on-the-right-path?lite

Gin · May 10, 2012

gxm said:
BBM

Does anyone know if TM had a young sounding voice, as in it had not changed yet? IMO, most male teens have passed that stage of puberty by the age of 17 but perhaps TM hadn't. I don't know. I just don't see how "sounds like the voice of a young male" is convincing evidence when the case involves a 17-year old and a 28-year old. I don't think pitch-wise that they'd sound much different, IOW they'd both sound like young men.

So, is it safe to say that the only witness who is able to directly identify any vocalization is the witness who says that GZ was on the ground yelling for help and asking for someone to call 911?

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

JMO--I remember pretty distinctly that the "real" change in voice of DS and his buddies came during college. 17 yo high school kids don't have that sound. It was kinda amusing one holiday when he was home that suddenly they all started to sound like much more adult. I'm thinking that was when they were about 20-21. They were probably college juniors then.

gxm · May 10, 2012

Gin said:
JMO--I remember pretty distinctly that the "real" change in voice of DS and his buddies came during college. 17 yo high school kids don't have that sound. It was kinda amusing one holiday when he was home that suddenly they all started to sound like much more adult. I'm thinking that was when they were about 20-21. They were probably college juniors then.

My son and his friends voices changed around the age of 15. So I looked it up and the average age of full adult pitch is 15. And it is usually preceded by a growth spike. As TM was 17-years old and taller than average, I'm guessing his voice had already changed. He would not sound like a "little boy" unless he had an unusually high-pitched voice.

source link:

http://tweenparenting.about.com/od/physicalemotionalgrowth/f/Boys-and-Voice-Change.htm

Boys do experience voice change during puberty, and the change can happen anywhere between age 10 and 15. Typically, voice change begins somewhere around age 12 or 13.

gxm · May 10, 2012

Alecto said:
TM's mother has previously mentioned that TM's voice changed when he was fifteen:

Fulton, remembers when Trayvons voice seemingly deepened overnight and the summer when he was 15 and sprouted two strands of hair on his chin.

He just wanted to, you know, mature and he wanted to be a man and he was almost there, Fulton said.
http://insidedateline.msnbc.msn.com...ents-say-he-was-headed-on-the-right-path?lite

Thanks. I had not seen your comment before I posted my last one. When I was researching it, there was mention of the possibility of "overnight" changes.

csziggy · May 10, 2012

ILikeToBendPages said:
AJ Noiter said:

If this were the case you'd think he would've stated, on the phone with his girlfriend, that he saw the weapon. You'd also think that just because he thinks he lost sight of Mr. Zimmerman, he'd still be in a hurry to get home.

Side Note: Not sure about other carriers, but my weapon is in its holster when I put the holster on. I do not remove my weapon from that holster unless I am cleaning it or using it. With that said, it seems silly that someone would get out of a vehicle THEN put the weapon in the holster.

Click to expand...

I never said he got out and put his gun in a holster. That is what you've said.

I said I thought, and it's my opinion , George got out of his truck, and put his gun in the waistband of his pants with his unzipped jacket over it. Many people do just that to reach their weapon easier and more quickly if needed. Especially if they don't want the a###### to get away. He had to have that courage to stalk on foot, with no power and authority, a person that he profiled as guilty in only his own mind.

Again it's my opinion, that when George re-appeared and confronted Trayvon that is was very likely he "showed" his gun and that is what started the struggle.

I don't think, and it's my opinion, Trayvon had time to say anything more than "why are you following me" then George saying what are you doing here and Trayvon seeing the gun.

It's my opinion and very likely Trayvon thought George was going for that gun and from that point on he was trying to get the gun to save his life.

In my opinion, Trayvon had every reason to be alarmed and now he would of had even more reason to be scared.

George may very well of been carrying it in his hand, but it's my opinion, Trayvon saw that gun and that is when he started fighting for his life. His stand your ground to save his life.

Why did George have a weapon on him if not to intimidate or detain Trayvon. George lost control of a situation that he himself created.

In my opinion, George killed a young boy because he's a bully. A self appointed gunslinger. A wanna be cop. I guess he wanted his "fellow" LE to pat him on the back for catching a bad guy.

Why diss Trayvon for not hurrying back? He was doing nothing wrong. He was going home talking on the phone. He wasn't the aggressor. He wasn't the one up to no good.

George was the one that got out of his truck armed, and it doesn't really matter if the gun was in a holster or up his butt. George screwed up. He needs to put on a pair and tell the truth and take his punishment.

In the initial police report there is a link to the report in the media thread) Officer Timothy Smith, the first on scene states:
"Located on the inside of Zimmerman's waist band, I removed a black Kel Tek 9mm PF9 semi auto handgun and holster."

Gin · May 10, 2012

gxm said:
My son and his friends voices changed around the age of 15. So I looked it up and the average age of full adult pitch is 15. And it is usually preceded by a growth spike. As TM was 17-years old and taller than average, I'm guessing his voice had already changed. He would not sound like a "little boy" unless he had an unusually high-pitched voice.

source link:

http://tweenparenting.about.com/od/physicalemotionalgrowth/f/Boys-and-Voice-Change.htm

Boys do experience voice change during puberty, and the change can happen anywhere between age 10 and 15. Typically, voice change begins somewhere around age 12 or 13.

Certainly it's possible to have an unusual child who's voice fully matures in a precocious manner.
I read the about.com article. It is true that voice change BEGINS somewhere around 12 or 13.

http://kidshealth.org/teen/sexual_health/guys/voice_changing.html

Nemours has a great explanation of the changes over time. They are a nationwide children's health system, this article was physican reviewed.

On page 2 the article concludes with this quote: " Even after the quick change that happens in your teens, your voice continues to develop. Although the sqeaking and cracking stage doesn't last long, most guys' voices don't fully mature until they are in their 20's."

My comment-the change to a fully mature voice that occurs in the 20's is exactly what I head in DS and his friends. They go from sounding like a kid to sounding like a man at that point.

LiveLaughLuv · May 10, 2012

ILikeToBendPages";7895127][quote="AJ Noiter said:
If this were the case you'd think he would've stated, on the phone with his girlfriend, that he saw the weapon. You'd also think that just because he thinks he lost sight of Mr. Zimmerman, he'd still be in a hurry to get home.

Side Note: Not sure about other carriers, but my weapon is in its holster when I put the holster on. I do not remove my weapon from that holster unless I am cleaning it or using it. With that said, it seems silly that someone would get out of a vehicle THEN put the weapon in the holster.[/Q

I never said he got out and put his gun in a holster. That is what you've said.

I said I thought, and it's my opinion , George got out of his truck, and put his gun in the waistband of his pants with his unzipped jacket over it. Many people do just that to reach their weapon easier and more quickly if needed. Especially if they don't want the a###### to get away. He had to have that courage to stalk on foot, with no power and authority, a person that he profiled as guilty in only his own mind.

Again it's my opinion, that when George re-appeared and confronted Trayvon that is was very likely he "showed" his gun and that is what started the struggle.

I don't think, and it's my opinion, Trayvon had time to say anything more than "why are you following me" then George saying what are you doing here and Trayvon seeing the gun.

It's my opinion and very likely Trayvon thought George was going for that gun and from that point on he was trying to get the gun to save his life.

In my opinion, Trayvon had every reason to be alarmed and now he would of had even more reason to be scared.

George may very well of been carrying it in his hand, but it's my opinion, Trayvon saw that gun and that is when he started fighting for his life. His stand your ground to save his life.

Why did George have a weapon on him if not to intimidate or detain Trayvon. George lost control of a situation that he himself created.

In my opinion, George killed a young boy because he's a bully. A self appointed gunslinger. A wanna be cop. I guess he wanted his "fellow" LE to pat him on the back for catching a bad guy.

Why diss Trayvon for not hurrying back? He was doing nothing wrong. He was going home talking on the phone. He wasn't the aggressor. He wasn't the one up to no good.

George was the one that got out of his truck armed, and it doesn't really matter if the gun was in a holster or up his butt. George screwed up. He needs to put on a pair and tell the truth and take his punishment.

Great post...the BBM portions, hit GZ's mentality on the head..:maddening:

I believe he is a bully, has no boundries, is a control freak with impulse control problems. He's not all that he thinks he is, but his ego is stroked by the neighbors in his community and has the HOA backing...and his CWP is his courage...

He's aggressive, he's a ne'er do well kind of guy. At his age, he should have his profession down already but he isn't successful in his attempts at employment or business ownership. He a loose cannon, this was his destiny he himself created..

He can't make it in the professional world, so he uses the government to get him enrolled in college, taking those criminal justice courses..He wanted to be a judge or magistrate, after he couldn't be the cop he wanted to be...he's an opportunist who saw an opportunity to become the best thing that TWR has in it's midst..and he's had complaints lodged against him prior to taking TM's life...

A volunteer community watch captain who shot an unarmed Florida teenager to death last month had been the subject of complaints by neighbors in his gated community for aggressive tactics, a homeowner said.

At an emergency homeowner’s association meeting on March 1, “one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home,” the resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. “It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch captain role.

Why did they escort this gentleman out? Why didn't they take his complaint seriously...Now he's out of control....GZ that is...

The meeting was attended by Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, the detective assigned to the investigation and an unnamed member of the city council, according to the homeowner’s association newsletter. The chief couldn't immediately be reached for comment about the complaints. A member of the homeowner’s association board, who asked not to be quoted by name, said she “hadn’t heard about any complaints” about Zimmerman. Zimmerman's phone number is disconnected and efforts to reach him have been unsuccessful.

Of course the HOA has to claim ignorance...they stand a chance of being sued just by enforcing GZ as the one to call if you've had a problem...they shouldn't have ignored the aggression factor that a neighbor has complained to SPD...

Then came 2005, and a series of troubles. Zimmerman's business failed, he was arrested, and he broke off an engagement with a woman who filed a restraining order against him.

That July, Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest, violence, and battery of an officer after shoving an undercover alcohol-control agent who was arresting an under-age friend of Zimmerman's at a bar. He avoided conviction by agreeing to participate in a pre-trial diversion program that included anger-management classes.

In August, Zimmerman's fiancee at the time, Veronica Zuazo, filed a civil motion for a restraining order alleging domestic violence. Zimmerman reciprocated with his own order on the same grounds, and both orders were granted. The relationship ended.

In 2007 he married Shellie Dean, a licensed cosmetologist, and in 2009 the couple rented a townhouse in the Retreat at Twin Lakes. Zimmerman had bounced from job to job for a couple of years, working at a car dealership and a mortgage company. At times, according to testimony from Shellie at a bond hearing for Zimmerman last week, the couple filed for unemployment benefits.

Zimmerman enrolled in Seminole State College in 2009, and in December 2011 he was permitted to participate in a school graduation ceremony, despite being a course credit shy of his associate's degree in criminal justice. Zimmerman was completing that course credit when the shooting occurred.

I believe something went haywire within GZ this year and from then on, he can't get it together..His propensity for violence, his aggressive nature I believe is his downfall...

By the summer of 2011, Twin Lakes was experiencing a rash of burglaries and break-ins. Previously a family-friendly, first-time homeowner community, it was devastated by the recession that hit the Florida housing market, and transient renters began to occupy some of the 263 town houses in the complex. Vandalism and occasional drug activity were reported, and home values plunged. One resident who bought his home in 2006 for $250,000 said it was worth $80,000 today.

At least eight burglaries were reported within Twin Lakes in the 14 months prior to the Trayvon Martin shooting, according to the Sanford Police Department. Yet in a series of interviews, Twin Lakes residents said dozens of reports of attempted break-ins and would-be burglars casing homes had created an atmosphere of growing fear in the neighborhood.

In several of the incidents, witnesses identified the suspects to police as young black men. Twin Lakes is about 50 percent white, with an African-American and Hispanic population of about 20 percent each, roughly similar to the surrounding city of Sanford, according to U.S. Census data.

One morning in July 2011, a black teenager walked up to Zimmerman's front porch and stole a bicycle, neighbors told Reuters. A police report was taken, though the bicycle was not recovered.

I believe this is his personal vendetta....and why GZ is where he's at today...

On February 2, 2012, Zimmerman placed a call to Sanford police after spotting a young black man he recognized peering into the windows of a neighbor's empty home, according to several friends and neighbors.

"I don't know what he's doing. I don't want to approach him, personally," Zimmerman said in the call, which was recorded. The dispatcher advised him that a patrol car was on the way. By the time police arrived, according to the dispatch report, the suspect had fled.

On February 6, the home of another Twin Lakes resident, Tatiana Demeacis, was burglarized. Two roofers working directly across the street said they saw two African-American men lingering in the yard at the time of the break-in. A new laptop and some gold jewelry were stolen. One of the roofers called police the next day after spotting one of the suspects among a group of male teenagers, three black and one white, on bicycles.

Police found Demeacis's laptop in the backpack of 18-year-old Emmanuel Burgess, police reports show, and charged him with dealing in stolen property. Burgess was the same man Zimmerman had spotted on February 2.

Burgess had committed a series of burglaries on the other side of town in 2008 and 2009, pleaded guilty to several, and spent all of 2010 incarcerated in a juvenile facility, his attorney said. He is now in jail on parole violations.

The alleged thief had already been caught, charged and convicted....but not when he first seen, he did elude capture at that time...

Ten days after his father was hospitalized, Zimmerman noticed another young man in the neighborhood, acting in a way he found familiar, so he made another call to police.

"We've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy," Zimmerman said, as Trayvon Martin returned home from the store.

The last time Zimmerman had called police, to report Burgess, he followed protocol and waited for police to arrive. They were too late, and Burgess got away.

This time, Zimmerman was not so patient, and he disregarded police advice against pursuing Martin.

"These *******s," he muttered in an aside, "they always get away."

After the phone call ended, several minutes passed when the movements of Zimmerman and Martin remain a mystery.

Moments later, Martin lay dead with a bullet in his chest.

I believe someone should have dealt with GZ's propensity for violence way before this fatal incident. He appears to be passive aggressive, with control issues with a mentality to match. If his mind tells him someone is up to no good, on drugs or something, he will make sure they don't get away, this time and this time proved fatal for TM, who did nothing to warrant any suspicions other than what GZ's mind tells him..

No one is addressing GZ's mentality, which I believe is the driving force behind his actions towards anyone he deems a criminal..it's all in his mindframe..

Justice for Trayvon Martin

gxm · May 10, 2012

Gin said:
Certainly it's possible to have an unusual child who's voice fully matures in a precocious manner.
I read the about.com article. It is true that voice change BEGINS somewhere around 12 or 13.

http://kidshealth.org/teen/sexual_health/guys/voice_changing.html

Nemours has a great explanation of the changes over time. They are a nationwide children's health system, this article was physican reviewed.

On page 2 the article concludes with this quote: " Even after the quick change that happens in your teens, your voice continues to develop. Although the sqeaking and cracking stage doesn't last long, most guys' voices don't fully mature until they are in their 20's."

My comment-the change to a fully mature voice that occurs in the 20's is exactly what I head in DS and his friends. They go from sounding like a kid to sounding like a man at that point.

I guess that means GZ's voice hasn't fully matured either. And my comment that they would both sound like young men stands. Like a 28-year old, a 17-year old does not sound like a child or a boy who has not reached (stage 3) puberty.

A young man's voice, on average, reaches full adult pitch by the age of 15.* (Apparently, TM's mother has stated that his voice had changed.) Both TM and GZ, even if their voices were not fully mature, would be in the full adult pitch range, not the child soprano range of a prepubescent boy.

Yes, it is true that human voices change throughout life. Many singers voices "mature" in their 50s. (Sinatra comes to mind.) However, adult pitch is a vocal range reached during puberty. That adult voices continue to "mellow" throughout their lives does not change this fact.

*Webster's Online Dictionary

AJ Noiter · May 10, 2012

TorisMom003 said:
COULD he have that mentality? Sure. Could he also have the mentality that he is above the law, that his word is golden and that whatever he believes is right for him trumps all others? Sure.

I have seen the calls that he had placed before. I read the transcripts from the dispatchers and I can tell you that a good number of them were for open garage doors. No one breaking in, no one casing the joint, just open garage doors. There were also a couple of Zimmerman following a car, a motorcylce, and a guy on a bike. Zimmerman was in his vehicle at the time following and giving the dispatcher a play by play as to where the "suspect" was at the time.

MOO

I have reviewed those 911 calls now and I'm still going to say it was nothing out of the ordinary. The Neighborhood Watch Manual tells people to call in open doors/windows. The call where he was following a vehicle to the airport was back in 2004 and I'd need more information about the call. Kids playing in the street is an every hour occurrence (at least, it was for us), otherwise they mostly seemed like calling in people he thought to be suspicious, those who were breaking the HOA rules (ie: party near the clubhouse), or individuals he thought were not supposed to be in the gated community. One thing I did pay attention to was the priority of all the calls, and they were all priority 3 (non-emergency) except two. Those two were actual assaults that were in progress.

Edit: One of the two assaults was on him (unless I'm misunderstanding), and judging by the information given, a police officer just rolled right by while the people were throwing things at his vehicle with him inside it, without even stopping to say "How ya doin?"

MaryAnn · May 11, 2012

[JMO
The voice screaming was of a higher pitch. I myself along with the Professionals that analzyed the screams agree it's Trayvon. I think anyone's voice would change to a higher pitch when screaming for their life. It does seem like young Black Males sometimes have higher pitched voices. Michael Jackson for example.

Karmady · May 11, 2012

MaryAnn said:
[JMO
The voice screaming was of a higher pitch. I myself along with the Professionals that analzyed the screams agree it's Trayvon. I think anyone's voice would change to a higher pitch when screaming for their life. It does seem like young Black Males sometimes have higher pitched voices. Michael Jackson for example.

And sometimes they don't

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