17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #14

All this talk about the head wounds is irrelevant. Don't we all agree there was a scuffle? Eyewitness testimony supports that there was. The question is, did TM just come up and punch GZ or did GZ put his hands on TM first, to hold him for police.

gracielee said:

JMO, but this also supports who it was calling for help in the 911 audio. Why would TM be yelling for *help*, if he didn't have any injuries to himself? GZ said at the scene he was 'calling for help' from his neighbors. Taking into account the gashes to the back of his head, it would seem to be GZ calling for help IMO.

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ITA. That's why I don't believe the experts on voice analysis so far. I think the expert is getting such a low match to Zimmerman because he is comparing screams to normal speech. Also I think both Zimmerman and Trayvon could have been screaming. I think Zimmerman could be the one screaming "help" (like he claimed) and Trayvon screaming other things.

cityslick said:

How does one produce welts on the back of his head? From the timeline, it doesn't seem he was alone long enough before police arrived?

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No, he definitely hit something. TM's dad said they found the body near a tree. The tree is not that big but could GZ have hit his head on it on the way down. I have a bruise on my arm now from hitting the corner of the doorway the other day. It's an interesting shape, almost circular. jmo

Beyond Belief said:

Well, do we believe now that GZ has injuries?

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I've never really doubted that GZ may have sustained some injuries...

However, I do question the severity of those injuries. IMO, it's hard to believe a serious gash to the head would not have required a bandage at the very least. As for his broken nose, I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

Under these conditions where a self-defense claim is asserted, I find it an extremely negligent that his injuries were not documented at a hospital that evening, just to preserve the record. The fact that they weren't indicates to me either incompetence or outright bias.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...c-news-neighborhood-watch-volunteer-zimmerman

Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video

Reporter Matt Gutman said the clearer video shows "what appear to be a pair of gashes or welts on George Zimmerman's head."


***not sure if this has been posted yet

LambChop said:

No, you're right why would he do that. The bruise is rounded in shape so he hit something hard. jmo

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It looks awfully bad from such a big distance. It's huge. I can understand fearing my life like that. He shouldn't have shot to kill but does anyone know how experienced GZ was with a gun? Like did he go to the range often?

ThoughtFox said:

That is not really completely misinformed in my opinion.

You are making what we call a semantic argument, based on how you interpret the language, but your mother could be just as right.

"We don't need you to do that" has an indefinite pronoun "that." Don't do that . . . what?

Most of us assume the dispatcher meant not to follow Trayvon either in the car or out of the car, because the police didn't need the help. George had already reported Trayvon, and at that moment no one was in imminent danger.

What he wanted was for Zimmerman to wait for the cops, but George just wouldn't do it. So it's really Zimmerman who isn't paying attention, and not those of us who aren't sure what "that" means in the 911 call.

It think "that" is what the dispatcher was trying to avoid, which was a confrontation and shoot-down between George and a teenager.

ETA: And I've said before that I personally think the dispatcher was being too mamby pamby with George, and was assuming that George would listen to him and act accordingly. I think every dispatcher should study this case and realize that a loose cannon out there could get in over his head fast. He should have spelled it out to George not to get out of the car, and not to get anymore involved than he was. :cow:

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The word "need" means "to have need of; require." Don't do that = "Don't do that" but that is not what was said, the word "need" was added which changed the meaning, IMO, entirely. In a court of law, the fact that it was not a clear, direct order and that it could be open to interpretation will be on GZ's side.

Also, according to GZ he did stop following TM. He claims that he was on his way back to his car when he was attacked from behind. As far as I know, there is no evidence that proves otherwise.

FWIW, I agree with you, the dispatcher should have said "Stop and get back in your car, immediately." But I also believe that these SYG-type laws are giving so-called "loose cannons" free rein and the laws need to be revised ASAP.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:

The screams are very confusing to me, and thats my opinion. When I hear them it sounds like a young boy, but its seems to be the sounds of someone being hurt. Trayvon, they say didn't have any signs on him that he was in fight. My reasons for being confused.

Does anyone find it kind of unusual strange that Daddy was allowed at the re enactment the next day? Keep in mind ,this was at a time when there was no publicity yet.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46922042/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/#.T3nNh_U9jcs

"The day after the shooting, George Zimmerman, according to his father, returned with at least three police officers to the Retreat at Twin Lakes, back to that grassy area where plaintive cries for help had gone unanswered. The investigators, accompanied by someone with a video camera, wanted him to re-enact the events of the night when the two strangers had stood their ground.

Mr. Zimmerman’s father watched from nearby. “They started where his vehicle was,” he recalled. “They walked him down the sidewalk and to the end of the sidewalk, to the street where he got an address and then walked him back towards his vehicle, near where the incident occurred.”

I surely would like to see that video.

TonyGatto said:

All this talk about the head wounds is irrelevant. Don't we all agree there was a scuffle? Eyewitness testimony supports that there was. The question is, did TM just come up and punch GZ or did GZ put his hands on TM first, to hold him for police.

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We may never know that real answer... unfortunately. At least not with the evidence available right now.

Slowly the media's presentation of this story is crumblng. First we find out the picture of TM that we have been shown for weeks...is years old. There are more current pictures of TM, including the picture TM CHOSE FOR HIMSELF...the one he wanted his friends to think of as they Twittered... the media does not use that. Only weeks later, another picture appears. No explanation for the strange choice of a child's picture that is years old...is ever given. We are left to provide our own explanations.

Next, a major media outlet alters the 911 tape. With that alteration, the charge of racial profiling seems to be justified. Was this another slip-up? Again, it is up to Newsbusters blog to call NBC on this. Another convenient but strange slip up...that helps ONE side of the story.

Then ABC reports that GZ appears unharmed in the video. Now days later an enhancement shows injuries. Whatever you want to call what's on his head...these injuries didn't come from shooting TM from afar..executing him with no provocation.

The media sensationalized this story...emotionalized it. TM was described as almost perfect. His own words on Twitter certainly added balance.

The media should be about facts, not driving emotional stories, creating false scenarios, running old outdated photos, "perfecting" one side and demonizing the other. This story should NOT be about race. How ridiculous to see this new term "White Hispanic" as if that justifies Hate groups offering bounties DEAD OR ALIVE...with free pass by authorities to do so. When GZ's Black friends try to defend him...they know nothing. But those who just get their info about him from the media KNOW EVERYTHING about the man.

A young man is dead. That's a tragedy. But his own actions that night, under Fla law, may make it impossible to charge GZ. Anger should be directed toward changing that law. if you feel that way.

But IMO, much anger and disgust goes to the Media, who have been advancing one metanarrative...and now, daily, have to walk their own bad reporting back. But that does nothing to ameliorate the false impressions they created.

CathyinTexas said:

Okay, there has been speculation about how the gf could know Trayvon's ear buds fell out or away. I think we sometimes are able to recognize sounds without thinking too much about it. Ear buds also have a microphone in them. I know that if I don't have both of my earbuds in the other person can't hear me very well. She heard him at one volume and then possibly when he was shoved (which I think he was, I do not think that at that exact moment he pushed GZ) his earbud came out and what ever sounds she heard at that point were faint. That may be why she thinks his ear buds were jarred loose.

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Again points to my suspicion that she heard the whole thing. However she didn't report it or tell the dad at the wake. (She went to the hospital after the wake IIRC.)

jjenny said:

He doesn't need life threatening injuries to claim SYG. In fact people without any injuries at all can claim SYG.

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Yup, you're right according to the "shoot first ask questions later" law.

However, that's not the point. The point is the entire Zimmerman family got on the TV and LIED.

Junior said that George was almost unconscious - near being permanently paralyzed -- was bleeding profusely -- had a broken nose, etc., and he was SURE that if George hadn't killed Trayvon, Trayvon would have definitely killed George.

Daddy Zimmerman said that Trayvon kept smacking George's head into the sidewalk for almost a full minute.

Try watching you computer's clock and see how long a minute is to have your head constantly being slammed into concrete.

You suppose anyone but George could come out of a brutal beating like that with a couple of "WELTS" on his head ?

Jurors will be instructed that if they believe anyone is lying about one thing they can disregard EVERYTHING that witness testifies to -- including <modsnip> George.

imho

rotterdam said:

Does anyone find it kind of unusual strange that Daddy was allowed at the re enactment the next day? Keep in mind ,this was at a time when there was no publicity yet.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46922042/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/#.T3nNh_U9jcs

"The day after the shooting, George Zimmerman, according to his father, returned with at least three police officers to the Retreat at Twin Lakes, back to that grassy area where plaintive cries for help had gone unanswered. The investigators, accompanied by someone with a video camera, wanted him to re-enact the events of the night when the two strangers had stood their ground.

Mr. Zimmerman’s father watched from nearby. “They started where his vehicle was,” he recalled. “They walked him down the sidewalk and to the end of the sidewalk, to the street where he got an address and then walked him back towards his vehicle, near where the incident occurred.”

I surely would like to see that video.

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Wow! Good catch Rotterdam. See...this is what gets people steaming. Was TM's dad allowed to go to the re-enactment?

The button has me puzzled too. Just how close to someone would you have to be to know they were wearing a button. At a distance I would think, just my opinion that the constrast in color would make it look like a design on the jacket.

Velouria said:

I've never really doubted that GZ may have sustained some injuries...

However, I do question the severity of those injuries. IMO, it's hard to believe a serious gash to the head would not have required a bandage at the very least. As for his broken nose, I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

Under these conditions where a self-defense claim is asserted, I find it an extremely negligent that his injuries were not documented at a hospital that evening, just to preserve the record. The fact that they weren't indicates to me either incompetence or outright bias.

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How do you know GZ's injuries weren't documented? He was treated at the scene by EMT's. I would imagine they would document his injuries in their report, wouldn't they?

As for the broken nose, one of my daughters got a broken nose when she was about 13. It wasn't obvious to me the nose was actually broken immediately after the incident, but she did say afterwards that the initial pain was such that she thought she might pass out. When I took my kids in for their allergy shots the following day, I had the doctor check it, and he sent me downstairs to a specialist who checked it too. The specialist said 'yes, it was broken, but there really was nothing to *do* for it, as the nose was straight, not crooked.' 'Just keep her quiet and be sure she doesn't do any activities that might reinjure the nose, and come back in to have him recheck it to be sure it was healing properly.'

LambChop said:

If the phone were knocked out of his hand it would go off. Mine does if I drop it. jmo

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If he had his earbud in his ear, JMO but would he have been holding his phone? His phone might have been in his pocket

GZ does have marks on the top of his head. FT described them as contusions, which is bruising. LE did not seemed concerned so I would assume it was not an open wound.

I can't imagine these officers handling someone who was bleeding from a wound without gloves going out on their next call and then them having to touch a baby. jmo

gracielee said:

How do you know GZ's injuries weren't documented? He was treated at the scene by EMT's. I would imagine they would document his injuries in their report, wouldn't they?

As for the broken nose, one of my daughters got a broken nose when she was about 13. It wasn't obvious to me the nose was actually broken immediately after the incident, but she did say afterwards that the initial pain was such that she thought she might pass out. When I took my kids in for their allergy shots the following day, I had the doctor check it, and he sent me downstairs to a specialist who checked it too. The specialist said 'yes, it was broken, but there really was nothing to *do* for it, as the nose was straight, not crooked.' 'Just keep her quiet and be sure she doesn't do any activities that might reinjure the nose, and come back in to have him recheck it to be sure it was healing properly.'

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I said documented at a hospital. You know, where they take x-rays and CT scans of someone who claims to have sustained head injuries. The kind of alleged head injuries that leave you one step away from being spoon fed by your brother for the rest of your life.

tlcox said:

This is why, Robert Zimmerman claims, his son decided to keep following Martin, so he could obtain an address to give to police.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/2...at-his-son-threatened-his-life/#ixzz1qtdepnxt

Can we at least end the debate over whether GZ continued to follow TM at this point? GZ's father states clearly that GZ did continue to follow TM after dispatch advised him to stop.

I was so taken aback by the other statements GZ father seemingly pulled out of his hiney that I entirely missed this apparent confirmation of the continued pursuit til just now.

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Curious, out of all the statements pulled out of his fathers hiney what makes this one any more credible? I'm having trouble believing half of what I see and none of what I hear. There was some kind of confrontation at the back corner of that building which IMO is very near where GZ may have been when the police dispatch told him "We don't need you to do that" I only wish the phone call had lasted a little bit longer.