Poll: Will this case ever be solved?

Oooh, oooh, a freebie for you HOTYH:

S.B.T.C. - Socialists Begat The Crime

Sophie said:

And have you looked at Patsy's writings? Even at the tenor of DoI? At one of Patsy's favourite books, The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie, in which the latter talks in political terms about the Spanish Civil War and about execution and assassination?

You would prefer to argue with almost all commentators on the RN who thought that this was at least college level American-English than actually look at principals in the case who might write in that style. Are you familiar with Occam's Razor? If the writing matches Patsy's prose, or anyone else's (for argument's sake, John's or a Ramsey friend) looking for an English-speaking socialist pretty much anywhere (although possibly a socialist monarchy with no DNA or crime information sharing arrangement with the US) seems to me to be a stretch.

Ty for hyperlink.

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Thats very good. Thanks. Got any of those?

Have YOU looked at Patsy's writings??

http://books.google.com/books?id=oFMW8RZmhSkC&pg=PA196&dq=forensic+linguistics+ramsey#v=onepage&q=forensic%20linguistics%20ramsey&f=false

I followed the case when it 1st happened and never believed John and Patsy murdered their daughter. I've still not ruled out that someone connected to John acted out of revenge and a SO can never be excluded!
It's still hard to believe it's been so long.

Somebody knows something abt who is responsible for this murder, and they may not even realize they have helpful info. And then there's the person who has info and eventually just can't keep it to themselves any longer. Hopefully there will come a day when either possibility becomes reality.

Sophie said:

You would prefer to argue with almost all commentators on the RN who thought that this was at least college level American-English than actually look at principals in the case who might write in that style.

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Apparently.

Are you familiar with Occam's Razor?

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Careful, Sophie! Mentioning Occam's Razor to HOTYH is like showing a cross to vampires!

Lol SD

Holdontoyouhat said:

Oh thanks for the ridicule.

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What's good for the goose...

This is the standard and predictable RDI circular reasoning. IDI says socialist so RDI then and only then starts calling PR a cold war student. Nice try but it wont work.

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It ISN'T circular reasoning. It's been pointed out for a long time, and by people a lot more knowledgable than Sophie and me.

madeleine said:

Lol SD

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Oh, I'm MAD now!

I wasn't trying to ridicule you, HOTYH: you mentioned kings and queens with specific regard to beheadings.

I didn't say Patsy was a Cold War student: I said she studied journalism when the Cold War was hot news.

As a matter of interest, HOTYH, and I say this without wanting to start an argument, but on what basis do you tell me that I'm way off on socialism, bearing in mind that, since 1997, my own country has been run by an at least nominally socialist government?

And also, I'd love to know where you get this about upper level monarchs dishing out beheadings. There are very few absolute monarchs left on the planet who can execute without due process never mind behead people. Capital punishment alone has been outlawed for decades within the EU.

Sophie said:

And also, I'd love to know where you get this about upper level monarchs dishing out beheadings. There are very few absolute monarchs left on the planet who can execute without due process never mind behead people. Capital punishment alone has been outlawed for decades within the EU.

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How few??

These posts of yours are somewhat baffling. One minute there's no socialism in the note, the next minute the low dollar amount is explained, and the minute after that you're narrowing down the possibilities.

I'm in awe.

Meanwhile, its not possible to tell me there's no socialism. Victory!, seen by experts as a revolutionary term, teamed with 'fat cat' says one and only one thing.

Maybe its not French-socialism or English-socialism. It is socialism.

SuperDave said:

You talk as though the two were mutually exclusive. They are not, not by a long shot. Allow me:

But you're explaining that there was no way to avoid calling 911 at 6 AM, as they would otherwise blow their cover. Is that right?

I guess the best way to explain it is this. I'll put it in a nutshell:

What you have to understand is that because they had the trip planned out, and because so many people knew they were going, once the killing happened, accidental or not, they were cornered.

Make no mistake, I believe that they always intended to call 911 in direct violation of the RN. Doing so gives a reason why JB was found dead. We've been over that before, MANY times. But the possibility of having their cover blown made it so they had to call then. Indeed, I can't help but wonder if that consideration prompted the RN in the first place.

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Just bumping this up in case SOMEONE wants to talk about it. I go to a lot of trouble to post my answers. It really bothers me when I'm ignored.

Holdontoyourhat said:

How few??

These posts of yours are somewhat baffling. One minute there's no socialism in the note, the next minute the low dollar amount is explained, and the minute after that you're narrowing down the possibilities.

I'm in awe.

Meanwhile, its not possible to tell me there's no socialism. Victory!, seen by experts as a revolutionary term, teamed with 'fat cat' says one and only one thing.

Maybe its not French-socialism or English-socialism. It is socialism.

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1) Very few - in fact, Saudi Arabia is the only one I can think of.

2) I'm afraid there was some irony in my mentioning the low dollar amount and the category of person you were looking for. Unfortunately there are no irony tags on here that I'm aware of.

3) I don't think I did tell you there was no socialism in the note. I said that the aspects of the note that you attributed to socialism could be attributed to other things or to the RN-writer being politically literate. The word 'victory' does conjure up the Bolsheviks storming the Winter Palace or the great European trade unionists singing the 'Red Flag.' It also conjures up pep-talks, sports figures talking up forthcoming fixtures. Hell, I'm on a soccer forum at the same time as I'm on here and someone has just said 'Victory!' about a pre-season friendly (which obviously sent me straight back over here).

4)You can't tell me that I am way off on socialism when I comment on there being various types of socialism then say that the socialism may not French-socialism or English-socialism but just socialism. Actually, I think you are talking about revolutionary communism rather than socialism but I haven't the strength to go into that.

SuperDave said:

Just bumping this up in case SOMEONE wants to talk about it. I go to a lot of trouble to post my answers. It really bothers me when I'm ignored.

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Sorry, Dave: I've been pre-occupied with a rant elsewhere.

I think your analysis is absolutely correct and I honestly don't understand the point that HOTYH is trying to make with this 911 controversy.

Sophie said:

Sorry, Dave: I've been pre-occupied with a rant elsewhere.

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I dig.

I think your analysis is absolutely correct and I honestly don't understand the point that HOTYH is trying to make with this 911 controversy.

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Well, what you have to understand is that my brother and I went over all of this one night. I ran a whole lot of scenarios past him--calling in sick, cancelling the flight, JR flying them himself, and all the rest, and they ALL flop for one reason or another. The Rs didn't really have a choice.

Sophie said:

3) I don't think I did tell you there was no socialism in the note. I said that the aspects of the note that you attributed to socialism could be attributed to other things or to the RN-writer being politically literate. The word 'victory' does conjure up the Bolsheviks storming the Winter Palace or the great European trade unionists singing the 'Red Flag.' It also conjures up pep-talks, sports figures talking up forthcoming fixtures. Hell, I'm on a soccer forum at the same time as I'm on here and someone has just said 'Victory!' about a pre-season friendly (which obviously sent me straight back over here).

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The word 'victory!' isn't the only word in the ransom note. There are other words. They have nothing to do with sports.

Victory! AND 'fat cat' AND 'not the country that it serves' AND low ransom matching unsightly bonus AND 'group of individuals' taken together at prima facie tells us one and only one thing.

Quoting Occam's Razor while shunting prima facie is paradoxical, BTW. They're like cousins or something.

http://socialist-courier.blogspot.com/2007/04/fat-cat-capitalism.html

Here's an article going on and on about excess bonuses for executives. A sore spot for socialists perhaps? Socialism dovetails with the ransom note.

Holdontoyourhat said:

Quoting Occam's Razor while shunting prima facie is paradoxical, BTW.

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Not really, when you think about it.

What happens when I think about it is this:

Some whacked socialist may have killed JBR and left a note for exactly 118,000 with some socialist ideology mixed in, to call public attention to JR's excessive bonus. They didn't care about sharing handwriting or DNA because they live in an area not sharing with international LE organizations.

Holdontoyourhat said:

What happens when I think about it is this:

Some whacked socialist may have killed JBR and left a note for exactly 118,000 with some socialist ideology mixed in, to call public attention to JR's excessive bonus. They didn't care about sharing handwriting or DNA because they live in an area not sharing with international LE organizations.

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Okay. You claim that's what the prima facie evidence shows. That's fine. I respect that.

Here's what happens when I start thinking:

The Rs are the only people who can be proven to be in the house that night. Their statements are riddled with inconsistencies. There is physical evidence from them in key places that they cannot (and in some cases, will not) credibly account for. The crime scene is a mishmash of motives and methods, all of which play on popular American fears.

Now contrast that with the far more elaborate idea that someone unfamiliar with the house was able to break in through an entry point that was hard to find, spend several hours inside without drawing notice, write about things that only family and a few very close friends knew about, commit an extremely complicated murder (it's only complicated IF an intruder committed it; my idea accounts for just about everything quite simply) right under their noses and then just vanish into thin air.

Occam's Razor holds that the simplest answer is the right one. When we apply it...

Holdontoyourhat said:

The word 'victory!' isn't the only word in the ransom note. There are other words. They have nothing to do with sports.

Victory! AND 'fat cat' AND 'not the country that it serves' AND low ransom matching unsightly bonus AND 'group of individuals' taken together at prima facie tells us one and only one thing.

Quoting Occam's Razor while shunting prima facie is paradoxical, BTW. They're like cousins or something.

http://socialist-courier.blogspot.com/2007/04/fat-cat-capitalism.html

Here's an article going on and on about excess bonuses for executives. A sore spot for socialists perhaps? Socialism dovetails with the ransom note.

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HOTYH, I used the expression 'prima facie' on Monday and a good 80% of your posts since then have included it. Prima facie means, 'at first glance,' or 'on first appearance.' It doesn't suggest that the first glance is necessarily the right glance. At first glance, this was a case in which a child was murdered in her own home on Christmas night with a ransom note left behind by someone with some familiarity with the house and the family. You seem to think that the RN should have been taken at face value despite the fact that it didn't even take itself at face value - JBR was murdered, not held safe and unharmed, and no one 'phoned the Ramsey home regarding the ransom note even though it was possible that the body hadn't even been found by then.

Occam's Razor would demand the simplest answer as being the right answer. Tell me, is the simple answer a SFF who had to identify the Ramseys, gain some familiarity with their home and their lives, wander around in the dead of night in the Ramsey home rather than abducting her on one of her many forays outdoors, remove a child from bed, feed her pineapple, write a ransom note, murder JB, wipe her down and redress her, wrap her up papoose-like, lock the wine cellar door after them and leave the house without being apprehended by anyone? Or is the simplest answer that four people went into the Ramsey home and one of them came out dead and that it was probably one of the other three who did the damage then concocted a scheme to try to get away with it?

I'd also love to know how you think LE should have investigated this differently, bearing in mind that a prima facie acceptance of the note demands that you accept that the kidnappers knew John Ramsey?

ETA: Thing about a prima facie acceptance of a crime is that it is the stager's best friend.

Also, thanks for your link but bonuses are sore spots for plenty of people who aren't socialists.

However, I am still baffled by your view of my comments on Occam's Razor and Prima Facie being paradoxical. They are entirely different things - one refers to initial appearances which may or may not be right, Occam's Razor refers to the simple solution being the right one - irrespective of how many looks you've taken at the evidence.