AZ - Gabriel Johnson, 8 months, 26 Dec 2009 - last seen in Texas - #3

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So Tammi is trying now to find a couple who wants a baby? Yeah, brokering. What's the date stamp on that post? Get a screen shot of that also someone!

Actually, if you look at the link, the "LOOKING FOR A COUPLE WHO CANT HAVE A BABY AND REALLY WANTS ONE... im here to help you" is not TS post, it is a would be surrogate's post -- TS replied to that forum/post and so it shows up on her profile -- TS was looking for a surrogate in 2008
 
I think this idea is absolutely ridiculous! It seems the conspiracy theories are getting out of hand and the obvious is being missed. Elizabeth simply didnt want her child. Here is what I think is most likely... The Smiths wanted a child, she lost hers to her spouse and wanted an instant family with her new husband. She met a troubled girl, mentioned that she had adopted her step grandchild and suggested that if Elizabeth was so unhappy that she would provide a loving home. Elizabeth was angry, spiteful, probably overwhelmed especially in light of the fact that she had little family to help support her and thought it was a good way to relieve her responsibility and spite Logan at the same time. When that didnt work out and she discovered that Logan was going to take the baby away from her, she decided to show him! I think she killed the baby. The Smiths are not much concerned because they know they havent done anything in the way of hiding this baby and they figure if he is alive, better he be missing than Logan have him since they cant have him themselves. They very ignorantly probably havent even fathomed that he is dead, because they think they know Elizabeth.

While your theory may be logical, but.....IMO there are too many links to adoption type entities/persons for me to relax on thier motives here. He is not a new husband. They've been together for 10 years as stated on NG. They should have never disregarded Logan's role as his natural father and assumed they would even be able to adopt to begin with.
 
The Pastor Crabb's to see if TS ever supplied a baby to them not the musical Crabbs.

I just checked WhitePages.com and found no Joel or Sandy Crabb in London or Lexington KY. I also did a google search and didn't find a "Pastor Joel Crabb" and no results for "Joel Sandy Crabb". I also searched "Joel Crabb" kentucky and other similar variants and found nothing.

I have a hunch that if there is a real Pastor Crabb, then Joel may be his middle name, one that he uses among friends, but he may use his first name in more formal settings, like at church.
 
The very sad fact is that is is probably easier to hide a dead baby then a live one. If some couple really did take the baby in, someone would know something. Calls would have to been made to make arrangements, neighbors and family would see a new child out of no where. Even the Smiths would save their own behinds if they made the arrangements and knew they were being caught. Unless the baby has been taken out of the country. I just don't know.
 
BeanE, I hope I don't sound stupid when asking this... What is Occam's Razor?:waitasec:

Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor[1]), entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, is the principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" and the conclusion thereof, that the simplest explanation or strategy tends to be the best one. The principle is attributed to 14th-century English logician, theologian and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham. Occam's razor may be alternatively phrased as pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate ("plurality should not be posited without necessity").[2]

I had to look it up too.
 
I had hopes in the beginning that Gabriel was alive and that the Smiths had helped hide him but the more time that goes on the more I am losing that hope. I can't see any other reason for EJ to allow herself to sit in jail if the only thing that is standing between her and freedom is telling where the child is. Given the fact that even her own grandfather thinks she is capable of harming her child makes me even less hopeful. I just can't see her hating LM more then she loves her freedom. I just think the child should have been found by now. I am sure LE has cell phone records and pings and should have been able to retrace her actions on the last day she was seen with Gabriel. I am sure if she met a family to give them Gabriel there would be some cell phone records. I hope LE is really closer then we know to finding baby Gabriel.

This is gut wrenching and sure hope this is not the case, but as time passes and the bio mother stays silent it does not bode well for baby Gabriel.
 
I thought the father was listed as John Doe b/c the court did not know who the father was. The court appointed a lawyer to represent the unknown father and that lawyer filed motions on behalf of the unknown father. The motions seemed to be concerned with whether a proper attempt at notification was made (through advertising in a newspaper etc.). The problem the court faced was that the biological mother denied knowing who the father was (claimed one-night stand) and so it became even more difficult to figure out a way that would satisfy the court that `proper`notification could be made. To add to the difficulty, the bio-mother was under 18 and could not be named either in the court documents or in any àdvertising`.

Now, this is all based on my quick scanning of the documents and I very well could've missed where the unknown father came forward. I agree it`s a similar case, except that the documents I read stated that both the bio-mother & father were African-American.

All this does not detract from the interesting fact that the same person or adoption scam (oops! I mean agency) was involved. It also does not take away from the fact that it appears this person & her partner used identical paperwork for a different case, typos and all, except they each managed to remember to sign their own name to their own case.

Just another couple of predators preying on desperate people and masquerading as do-gooders IMO.



You could be right. I couldn't figure out if they knew who he was either or were just using John Doe to protect his identity (probably my fault because late last night I was just skimming and trying to get stuff posted). Interesting, if they actually did it without knowing who the father was. That's laudible.

It's obviously hinky that an adoption place is submitting that kind of sloppy paperwork in cases thinking no one will care or notice and there is not an honest and diligent search for the father (nor is the correct location used?).
 
I had hopes in the beginning that Gabriel was alive and that the Smiths had helped hide him but the more time that goes on the more I am losing that hope. I can't see any other reason for EJ to allow herself to sit in jail if the only thing that is standing between her and freedom is telling where the child is. Given the fact that even her own grandfather thinks she is capable of harming her child makes me even less hopeful. I just can't see her hating LM more then she loves her freedom. I just think the child should have been found by now. I am sure LE has cell phone records and pings and should have been able to retrace her actions on the last day she was seen with Gabriel. I am sure if she met a family to give them Gabriel there would be some cell phone records. I hope LE is really closer then we know to finding baby Gabriel.

Bolding mine. I've lived in Arizona all my life and moved to Tempe about a dozen years ago. One of the main reasons I moved here is because of the outstanding law enforcement here. I'm not disrespecting other valley cities, but I feel that if any LE department can solve this case, then the fine detectives of Tempe will be the ones to do so.
 
I really don't think Tammi & Jack are into brokering babies or providing a surrogate service. I think this woman wanted a baby. I think she ran and responded to ads online, relied on word of mouth through friends, and eventually met up with our lil' nut case EJ. I think she probably mentioned to EJ that they had adopted and were looking to adopt again and maybe she told Elizabeth if she knew anyone considering adoption to please pass her card along to them. EJ probably told her that she was considering it and there the friendship begins. Then EJ fills Tammi & Jack full of crap about Logan and they swallow every bit of it, they really believed her. I believe Tammi did help her leave AZ with Gabriel and helped her find the underground through a church or women's shelter. I don't know if Tammi sent EJ away to hide Gabriel or to place him for adoption with another family but my guess is that she sent her away as a ploy to get Logan to sign those dam adoption papers. When that backfired I think EJ went through the shelter underground and placed Gabriel for adoption. I do think that the friend in Tenn...Janet Morris helped facilitate the adoption.
I don't think Tammi knows where Gabriel is but I think she knows how he got to where he is and that is what is going to send her to jail. All jmo of course.
 
While your theory may be logical, but.....IMO there are too many links to adoption type entities/persons for me to relax on thier motives here. He is not a new husband. They've been together for 10 years as stated on NG. They should have never disregarded Logan's role as his natural father and assumed they would even be able to adopt to begin with.

You're right they shouldn't have disregarded the natural father but her greed of having another child took over, its obvious that is all that mattered to her. She did not care who she hurt to get her way, and in the end if this child is dead she did not just hurt Logan, she had a direct hand in harming Gabriel too. I have a feeling she will never recognize that but its plain as day.

Nothing at all has indicated she was into baby selling. Assuming she did think she could just hide him out for a while and then have him back later, she is smart enough to know by now that will never work! Any normal person would have arranged for him to show up at a fire station by now in that situation. Selling him just doesnt serve her selfish need for a child, they are not poor. They dont need the money.
 
Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor[1]), entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem, is the principle that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity" and the conclusion thereof, that the simplest explanation or strategy tends to be the best one. The principle is attributed to 14th-century English logician, theologian and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham. Occam's razor may be alternatively phrased as pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate ("plurality should not be posited without necessity").[2]

I had to look it up too.

Thank You!
I guess I should've looked it up myself as well!:innocent:

BeanE thanks for the link!!!
 
I'm really afraid that, although the Smiths may believe this is a story about adoptions, it's going to turn out to be a story about a "spiteful b#tch."
Yeah, I felt like that when I first heard this story, but you never know with the Smiths. That is what is unusual about this case. You have a sociopathic mother that is capable of harming her baby, but you also have this wackjob couple that I believe is capable of arranging for this baby to be hidden somewhere.
 
I've started a new thread here: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4658199#post4658199"]AZ - 8 mo. old Gabriel Johnson missing since 12-26-09, #4 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

I'll have this one closed.

Salem
 
I think this idea is absolutely ridiculous! It seems the conspiracy theories are getting out of hand and the obvious is being missed. Elizabeth simply didnt want her child. Here is what I think is most likely... The Smiths wanted a child, she lost hers to her spouse and wanted an instant family with her new husband. She met a troubled girl, mentioned that she had adopted her step grandchild and suggested that if Elizabeth was so unhappy that she would provide a loving home. Elizabeth was angry, spiteful, probably overwhelmed especially in light of the fact that she had little family to help support her and thought it was a good way to relieve her responsibility and spite Logan at the same time. When that didnt work out and she discovered that Logan was going to take the baby away from her, she decided to show him! I think she killed the baby. The Smiths are not much concerned because they know they havent done anything in the way of hiding this baby and they figure if he is alive, better he be missing than Logan have him since they cant have him themselves. They very ignorantly probably havent even fathomed that he is dead, because they think they know Elizabeth.

I completely respect your opinion on this, however, I am having a hard time piecing the following things (in no certain order) together with that scenario.

Threatening Logan with "sign if you ever want to see your baby in a safe home"

Bio child posting she thinks TPS is involved due to what she did to them.

Step child posting that JS gained custody of H. through underhanded measures.

The Smiths denying having any idea of the Nashville connection and then a couple of hours later admitting to knowing the exact Nashville connection, which just so happens to be a friend of theirs that has a history of at least one adoption where the father was revoked of his custodial rights in what appears a to be a shady way.

The phone call from EJ to the Smiths. The one immediately following (according to TPS) the text to Logan claiming having killed Gabriel, telling TPS that she just made that claim to Logan but that the baby was indeed fine and safe. Why was she still in contact with them at this point, if she had really just fled and killed Gabe?

The suddenly remembering key pieces of information all of a sudden, and now going back in to have memories extracted? memories that are so repressed... from 2 weeks ago?

There's simply too many other pieces here. I just can't wrap my head around the Smiths being anything less than the shot callers on this one.

I still think Gabriel is alive and I think that TPS knows exactly where he is, or at least was, when he was handed off. I think she was in touch with EJ through the entire AZ > TX > FL trip. I think LE is perfectly aware of this, and their involvement.

Whether or not it goes deeper than just Gabriel, I don't know. For now I would be content with Gabe being brought home to Logan. After that, I hope everyone can find peace of mind regarding their involvement or lack thereof.
 
While your theory may be logical, but.....IMO there are too many links to adoption type entities/persons for me to relax on thier motives here. He is not a new husband. They've been together for 10 years as stated on NG. They should have never disregarded Logan's role as his natural father and assumed they would even be able to adopt to begin with.

I agree ... something is not right because. And, there is a strong indication they have some MO going here with adopting the 4 yr old behind the father's back. Tammi is just doing too much searching and posting for me to believe that was to find or grow one baby also - she may not be getting money for brokering, but with all her connections to adoption and surrogate folks, it seems to me she is in all this deeper than, again, one baby. Her own daughter is now calling her out and if they were so innocent in Gabriel's disappearance, then they would be so inconsistent, happy go lucky, and trying now to point the finger at both Elizabeth and Logan as unfit parents.
 
O/T

Welcome all new posters, and lurkers:)

:blowkiss:

And to the regs posting on this thread- wow. you guys are really on it:) I can barely keep up, and every time I go to post my thoughts, someone has posted it, so I just hit thanks! haha.

you guys are great;)
 
I think it is in response to what her daughter put on her facebook. The daughter believes her mom is involved and took it to her FB page.

which daughter; the oldest one `G` (insert question mark here)

(my question mark key won`t work properly)

I posted earlier that TF only had her two middle kids on her `top`friends on MS & I was thinking there was an issue there (beyond the obvious ones we all have seen)

so I`m thinking `G`
 
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