2011.06.07 Sidebar (Trial Day Twelve)

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This is not correct, one could also say "so how do you know" to just about any question and elicit a similar response, training and experience make for a "beyond reasonable doubt scenario", this, added to the police officers opinion on the smell just about nailed it. The problem is you can't just brush aside all the evidence because it doesn't fit your own hypothesis. Sometimes when the evidence is overwhelming as to there being a dead body in the car, you minimize it, or don't engage it at all and move on.

As to the rest, well that's vice versa the are both employing the same tricks but the state is doing it better. JMO

No really Baez only needed to ask that witness that one question to get the witness to say what he wanted him to say. He did get him to say it but then Baez felt froggy and lept one lily pad to far and his fly got away.

Baez doesnt even need to brush most of what he is brushing away.

He needs to cause reasonable doubt and until today with the last witness he was knocking a bit out of it slowly but surely.
 
I've seen this mentioned a few times...the bottle contained chloroform? Do you have a link? TIA

The bottle had very minor trace amounts. Less than is in drinking water. There is a thread on it. A member who is a chemist explains it in the thread.
 
jmhoo.... but it will come up again in the trial that Caylee was
1)not found deceased in a swim suit
2) no swim suit found in the car
3) no swim suits missing from the house

so... imhoo what the anthony's used to stabilize their pool will be moot... and any chlorine from any pool back in early june would have already volatilized as we have already seen in scientific testimony..

again my two cents..


(((oh wait.. I have more cents! nurse reaching into piggy bank... the spare tire cover had enough chloraform to detect after being sent thru the mail in a card board box which corroborates dr. V air sample testing... that the levels were way high... the chemist today said that the levels he currently detected he was surprised to see due to volatility of chloraform..... I know a lot of people think he didn't win points but as a person who has a science background it spoke VOLUMES... LIKE A LIBRARY.... to me.. okay bank empty...))



I know I know... I just thought of it... accidental drowning.. as baez says early in the morning.... as baez says...

so that would not be a swim suit

but baez said it was a swim suit (the chloroform)

any nightgowns or clothing missing from the house other than what is in the backpack? LDB needs to drive this home that nothing else is missing and that Cindy did all the laundry


gosh.. all the scenarios that can come up when the defense is up are mind boggling....... thank God for all the good foundation the state is laying...


MAY THEY CONTINUE TO LAY IT AND NOT REST UNTIL IT IS POURED... MOO:twocents:
 
Those were my thoughts exactly. Well, perhaps not "exactly", afterall, I'm not a chemist. ;)

One thing that has never been clear to me, though...when they are talking about samples, scrapping, etc. being taken from the spare tire cover, were these taken from the inside of the tire cover, or the outside? I've never been able to get a lock on that. And it does matter to me.

iirc they were from the well under the carpet insert
 
iirc JB was attempting to change 'bio-hazards' to 'trash', when discussing why the car was relocated outside. Attempting to insinuate that any old trash would disrupt the dog's progress in identifying decomp.

Sure, but shouldn't a proper investigation by the defense have uncovered this and been used by them to attempt to discredit the testimony of the past few days regarding the air samples? It was offered up by the State's witness today as an aside as to why he had the car moved out of the bay. It seems like bio-hazards would be much more useful to them than their trash/garbage argument.
 
Do you know how it was discovered that the A's use Baqaucil? Was it on the search warrant list or did someone state it in a depo? I can't remember. TIA

ns
IIRC it was found in the shed...
 
Maybe so katydid..I have had terriers..and snoop, bark and scratch..although had full run of backyard. So do agree with you on a certain level..

Seeing the Anthony Furbabies..they were very small, ( Yorkies I think) and for some reason I just cant imagine they allowed them free run of their backyard...in fact I have known these small little dogs (4-7 lbs) are often trained to do their business in a "Litter Box"..Of course and as I said I am only speculating..but doubt very much these pups ever got close to that area of the yard...

Those K-9 dogs proved to me that Caylee had been in that yard long enough to leave residue decomp odour/scent..not just her death..decomp residue doesnt occur immediately to leave enough for any cadaver dog to hit on..at least from what I recall..and GEORGE would neveer have stashed her back there either....Yikes this must be so heart breaking for both CA and GA to hear!!

I've always felt that Caylee's body was in the Anthony backyard for a period of time, but couldn't quite put it together. I think today's testimony by Deputy Forgey really clarified a lot of issues regarding the backyard.

Earlier in the case I was under the belief that there were three hits by the dogs in the Anthony backyard, with one of those hits was near the pool. Now we learn the the hit was actually near the playhouse - sandbox area, not near the pool. This really seems to rule out JB's scenario of an accidental drowning in the pool.

A couple of weeks ago one of our WS members checked out the weather reports for July 15, 16, and 17 of 2008, and we learned it was raining on the 16th and 17th.

It makes a LOT of sense that Caylee died on the 16th and on an immediate basis, Casey put her body either in the playhouse or sandbox. If it was raining, and Casey and Caylee weren't home, there would be no reason for George or Cindy to open either the playhouse or sandbox.

On July 18th, Casey was observed by neighbor Brian Burner backing her car into the garage of the Anthony home and she borrowed a shovel from him.

I think Casey's plan at that point was to bury Caylee in the backyard. But, she found out she couldn't dig a hole large enough to bury Caylee and soon gave up on it and returned the shovel.

What I'm still unsure of is where exactly Caylee died. Did she die in the trunk of Casey's car? Or did she die in the Anthony home?

I've always felt that Casey left home, taking Caylee with her, the night of July 15th after having a fight with Cindy, but stayed in her car nearby talking and texting on her phone. IF this is what happened, maybe Casey waited until after George left for work on July 16th and went back home and put Caylee's body in the playhouse or sandbox?
 
BBM- Do you remember why they said that? In this case specifically? I think LDB's giving it everything theyve got to make it clear how well-trained the k9's were, and how they had to keep retesting. If anyone can get it in, she can. Based on the totality of evidence I think it will stay anyway.

Jean C was pointing out what a good job the prosecution did with laying foundation for the k9 training/search, and that it was a good thing since you wouldn't want a mistrial....
 
Were George and Cindy in court today? I've been thinking how sad today's testimony must have been for them.

Cindy was there with her friend, but George wasn't there today. The Orlando Sentinal has a picture of Cindy and her friend in today's pictures.
 
I thought it was part of the search results. I ran an advanced search on the search link above -- showing posts and the earliest reference on Websleuths appears here in the All About Chloroform # 2 thread in about February of 2009.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3334445&highlight=Baquacil#post3334445

Thanks Themis, there is a great post by Valhall on that page that explains even if the pool had chlorine, that would not manufacture chloroform in the trunk. That's the same thing I understood the chemist to say today, so mute point either way on the pool cleaner. I've been wondering how chlorine would equal chloroform, when we know it is not easy to manufacture chloroform even when one is trying to. JMO
 
As the trial progresses, I find myself getting angrier and angrier. I hope it's okay to say...I hate Casey...and her attorney.
They are diabolical. I must admit, I think KC is more intelligent than JB. I had to quit watching the trial because I can't stand stupid people, and JB fits that description perfectly. Why is he in charge of almost ALL of the cross examinations? Seems to me he should have saved some money to keep Linda Baden. It's pitiful. IMO
 
I don't believe there ever was a root.

I'm wondering about the pavers used to "floor" the playhouse. No real theory, just curiousity. Were those moved? Did they appear disturbed to LE?

Again, bear with me, I'm trying to catch up on WS's 3 yrs of docs in 3 weeks!
iirc (in links within WS site) KC borrowed the shovel to dig up imaginary root and there was a location in the back yard (in July, 2008) located by LE that some recent digging had been done. I was wondering the proximity of the imaginary root/digging in relation to where the dog hit. Meaning, was it in close proximity if KC were to lay poor Caylee's body for a short period of time?

I will try to locate what I have previously read as to the description of the backyard, including anything referencing the pavers. I do believe there was a reference to the pavers.
 
As the trial progresses, I find myself getting angrier and angrier. I hope it's okay to say...I hate Casey...and her attorney.

Yes. I had to take a break today. I was so pissed off so I had to back away from the laptop and calm down lol. We're just getting started. It's been what 12 days? We have a LOT more ground to cover and hopefully it will all be presented to the jury in the end in a nice package. Instead of discrediting everything every witnesses say, Jose Baez should be starting to lay down the ground for that absurd claim of his that Caylee drowned and Casey/George panicked. A lot of the jurors have children, and I think they'll pause and think how they would react if unfortunaly a child of them passed away so tragically. Would you give that child you loved a proper burial or would you throw her away like trash?

The closing statement will seal Casey's fate.
 
I've always felt that Caylee's body was in the Anthony backyard for a period of time, but couldn't quite put it together. I think today's testimony by Deputy Forgey really clarified a lot of issues regarding the backyard.

Earlier in the case I was under the belief that there were three hits by the dogs in the Anthony backyard, with one of those hits was near the pool. Now we learn the the hit was actually near the playhouse - sandbox area, not near the pool. This really seems to rule out JB's scenario of an accidental drowning in the pool.

A couple of weeks ago one of our WS members checked out the weather reports for July 15, 16, and 17 of 2008, and we learned it was raining on the 16th and 17th.

It makes a LOT of sense that Caylee died on the 16th and on an immediate basis, Casey put her body either in the playhouse or sandbox. If it was raining, and Casey and Caylee weren't home, there would be no reason for George or Cindy to open either the playhouse or sandbox.

On July 18th, Casey was observed by neighbor Brian Burner backing her car into the garage of the Anthony home and she borrowed a shovel from him.

I think Casey's plan at that point was to bury Caylee in the backyard. But, she found out she couldn't dig a hole large enough to bury Caylee and soon gave up on it and returned the shovel.

What I'm still unsure of is where exactly Caylee died. Did she die in the trunk of Casey's car? Or did she die in the Anthony home?

I've always felt that Casey left home, taking Caylee with her, the night of July 15th after having a fight with Cindy, but stayed in her car nearby talking and texting on her phone. IF this is what happened, maybe Casey waited until after George left for work on July 16th and went back home and put Caylee's body in the playhouse or sandbox?

Jumping off your post.


Bodies take a few hours to release a scent and the less time it was there the weaker the scent would be. Drowning in the pool and removing to the ground then removing in a few minutes wouldnt leave a scent to be detected over 30 days later.(IMRO)
I wouldnt expect a scent there unless Caylee was placed near the pool for hours after being taken out of the pool.

Fact to check to remove GA from cover up would be to see how long a body would have to lay in one spot of the ground before it left a scent strong enough to be detected by a dog.(Dr vass could tell us) If that time period is 4 hours or six hours. We should be able to time that in conjuction to when Casey pinged off other towers.
We can compare that to what time casey left , George left and Cindy came home on the 16th of june .

Now I could be wrong about the body not leaving a scent for the first hours but I dont believe I am wrong about it.
 
:banghead:
They are diabolical. I must admit, I think KC is more intelligent than JB. I had to quit watching the trial because I can't stand stupid people, and JB fits that description perfectly. Why is he in charge of almost ALL of the cross examinations? Seems to me he should have saved some money to keep Linda Baden. It's pitiful. IMO
 
They may have their own place to pee and poop, but I do not see any fences or barriers that would keep them from running loose in the backyard. And Yorkies are companion dogs, and would follow Cindy anywhere she went, imo.

Yorkie Mama here! I have one (they are litter mates) that follows me everywhere I go...(psst, yep even to the potty room ugh) and the other is my psycho yorkie that will attack 150lb dogs that dare to venture into my yard...and dug up all my tomato plants....she would dig up anything that smelled like decomp...she digs up dead squirrels, dead birds and even dead lizards and brings them to the back door for Mama to check.
 
They are diabolical. I must admit, I think KC is more intelligent than JB. I had to quit watching the trial because I can't stand stupid people, and JB fits that description perfectly. Why is he in charge of almost ALL of the cross examinations? Seems to me he should have saved some money to keep Linda Baden. It's pitiful. IMO

No need to stop watching the trial..personally I refuse to even react or comment on JB..much less KC when it comes to her intelligence, activities or anything else for that matter...I just "Cool My Jets" their behaviors this past 3 years have desensitized me to the point..and I pay no never mind right now..and refuse to be put @ risk of having a TO...It isnt worth it in my books...

LKB has been more of a thorn in my side in this whole thing..she left the case yet continues to blow her smoke (and get paid) on National Media...I take it from where it comes..and after the Spector Trial lost all respect..Yikes I wont even go into Dr. H. Lee :floorlaugh:..I suspect he spends more time over seas these dayz:floorlaugh:

Anyway..dont deprive yourself of watching the SA case in chief to bring justice for Sweet Caylee..after all she was the true innocent victim in all this..
 
I was wondering why she would take the body to that far corner of the yard to wrap it. Then I saw the very large umbrella in the screenshot of where Gerus alerted. Not the striped one that is shown opened, but the closed, very tall one. I believe the body was moved there to afford ICA some privacy while wrapping the body. I see many windows of neighbors that she would need to be shielded from.

I haven't tried to lay out a theory before, so don't hold me to this...I'm working through it as I type. (and I'm going only from the evidence presented thus far in court, so bear with me)

1). Cadaver dogs hit on the play area of the yard. If we believe the hit was accurate (and I do), then we have to concede that at some point in time, Caylee's deceased body was in that area of the yard.

2). Abundant testimony has been given to convince me that Caylee's decomposing body was found in the trunk of ICA's car. Not simply deceased, decomposing to the point where the smell was in the car LONG after her body had been removed. Now, that tells me that the body was either put into the car fairly fresh and was left there until the odor became unbearable (or too bad to hide), or it was put into the car at a more advanced decomp stage simply for transport to another location. If the later is true, where would the body have been stashed as it went from a fresh state to a reek state. Surely not in the backyard, unless it was buried back there. I would think that highly risky, and I would think that might be noticable to GA and CA. So, I'm inclined to believe the body was put into the car in a fairly fresh state and simply left there until the smell got so bad something else had to be done.

3). So back to the backyard hit by cadaver dogs. At some point, a dead child lay in that play area of the yard. Did the child drown and was she removed from the pool and then laid in the yard? Possible, I suppose. But I absolutely can not fathom the mother of a drowning victim going to all this trouble to hide an accidental drowning. NOR drive around with her dead daughter in the car until the reek is overwhelming. So no, I don't believe Caylee drown. What other reasons might a deceased child have been in that play area? You wouldn't drag the body out there unless you had a darned good reason too. Not with neighbors close by? The only "good reason" I can come up with is a place to hide the body until you can deal with it later. Perfect place in that area? Playhouse. And if you're carrying a dead child, you might have to lay it on the ground to open the door of the playhouse, of even move the playhouse if you can't fit inside.

4). Inside the vehicle we find a loose hair with a deathband on it. How did that end up loose in the trunk of the car if Caylee was double bagged back there? I don't think she was in the bag at this stage. I think she was put into the trunk, sans the bag, and later bagged in the trunk. No one to see, especially if this is done while vehicle is in garage.

So...here's my best guess:

Caylee died in the house, ICA was in a hurry to meet Tony. She carried Caylee to the back yard, put her in the playhouse and closed the door. She later came back, got the body, and laid it in the trunk of her car. Went about her business. The car began to sort of stink, so ICA triple bagged the body, but didn't know where to put the body other than back in her car. The smell then begins to permeate the entire vehicle. ICA is forced to deal with the situation. Thus, the body is dumped where it was later found.

That's the best I can come up with.

ETA: I do absolutely believe that ICA has a "deal with it later" attitude about life in general. Make a mess now, worry about the clean up later. Tell a lie now, worry about covering your butt later. So, I can absolutely see her not letting the fact that there is a dead body in the car cause her any worry, or stop her good times, until she is forced to deal with it. JMO
 
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