Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 26

Robin Hood said:

From Wiki

''At the time of death, a condition called "primary flaccidity" occurs. Following this, the muscles stiffen in rigor mortis. All muscles in the body are affected. Starting between two and six hours following death, rigor mortis begins with the eyelids, neck, and jaw. The sequence may be due to different lactic acid levels among different muscles, which is directly related to the difference in glycogen levels and different types of muscle fibers. Rigor mortis then spreads to the other muscles within the next four to six hours, including the internal organs. The onset of rigor mortis is affected by the individual's age, sex, physical condition, and muscular build. Rigor mortis may not be perceivable in many infant and child corpses due to their smaller muscle mass''

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Maybe she was a bit stiff, that's why he carried her upright?

One thing's for sure, if she was dead when taken, it wasn't a pedophile. They want them alive.

Cherwell said:

I've said this before - you don't know that.

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True, I don't know and I hope Scotland Yard looked at this.

If there was a report in Portuguese Police files saying, re this dogs route, I policeman NAME X investigated this, we checked who usually parked at this place and this person was excluded from the enquiry due to this and this.. this would make me happy. But leaving it as it is, without answers makes me nervous.
Someone said the dogs follow the freshest trail and if this was the freshest trail it should have been investigated.

But lets say if for example the abductor parked their car there, in front of everyones nose and he just put Madeleine there and went off.. this would be such a waste of 6 years.

Or for example, person1 who works at the resort parks there, goes to apartment, takes Madeleine, gives her to someone through the window, goes out, back to the car park and drives off, would something like this be possible, that Madeleine's scent was left on him?

haden said:

The window was left open.

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These photos by portugal police say something else.

Walking around the cots is not a problem.
Maybe Madeleine was chosen to be taken?
Night vision wouldn't be a problem if person knew the apartment, worked there or been there before.

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I bump into things even in my own bedroom, when I walk there in darkness. The Mc Canns moved the beds and put the cots in the middle. That makes the things difficult even for a staff member, especially that in these cots there were children a kidnapper would not want to wake up. And again, why to go wth all the hassle of putting the sleeping Maddie through the window, when there were doors available? Unlocked, to top it all?

haden said:

Why I mention car is because of the car park next to the OC. I mentioned this several times since yesterday and would not like to repeat myself but hours after Madeleine went missing the portuguese police used the search dogs, also few days late, all together4 times, 4 dogs, went the same way, around the block and to a car park where they all stopped.

Now, I am not sure if Madeleine is being carried, whether these dogs would still follow her scent.
Few years ago there was a long discussion about this but because the dogs route did not match the Jane Tanner sighting this was dropped.
Now when we know that JT sighting is discounted I thought the dogs route can be revisited.
Here is the photo of the dogs route
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/08/06/article-1042099-022F939200000578-880_468x304.jpg

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Yes, I understand what you are saying above but I thought from the way you first posted about an abductor taking Madeleine in a car was because someone had reported seeing this happen, i.e. someone carrying a child to a car then driving away.

Thank you for the reply.

Hexe said:

These photos by portugal police say something else.



I bump into things even in my own bedroom, when I walk there in darkness. The Mc Canns moved the beds and put the cots in the middle. That makes the things difficult even for a staff member, especially that in these cots there were children a kidnapper would not want to wake up. And again, why to go wth all the hassle of putting the sleeping Maddie through the window, when there were doors available? Unlocked, to top it all?

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If you are hinting at something ala Mr Amarals theory, I checked it out, I don't believe in it.

I believe in current SY work and their recent Crime Watch showed the window open.

The person had no reason to open the window but yet, he-she opened it.
I think this was to mask the fact that he-she had the main doors keys..
And to hand Madeleine to someone through the window.
I wouldn't be surprised it was someone who was very well known in the resort.
This also could be someone from the McCanns friends, the closest to crime scene being MO but I think the Scotland Yard has ruled him out, otherwise the whole investigation would have been solved.
You forget about the recent Snowden reports and how the government, including UK government has access to all data we ever searcher or looked at..
If any of the McCanns friends had a little spot on their 'file' they would be in a very big trouble with the Scotland Yard, but they ARE NOT!

BOESP said:

Yes, I understand what you are saying above but I thought from the way you first posted about an abductor taking Madeleine in a car was because someone had reported seeing this happen, i.e. someone carrying a child to a car then driving away.

Thank you for the reply.

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No there is no one who ever saw Madeleine being carried into a car.Or any child.
At least there is nothing like that in files.
Re cars the facts about the cars around and statements from the OC staff are really interesting.
I'd advise anyone interested in this case to read this..

SapphireSteel said:

sbm~



Sure can, especially if they're freshly dead.



BTW I've just realised this discounts all the theories that Madeleine died earlier in the night. Rigor would already have set in if so. :twocents:

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Rigor could have begun, but full rigor? Nah, IMO


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SapphireSteel said:

I love how the dogs are either completely wrong or completely right depending on the day.

:seeya:

the cadaver dog - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

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Rofl...Dog Day Afternoon?


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SapphireSteel said:

IIRC rigor starts between 4-6 hours after death.

Some folks theory included Madeleine dying much, much earlier, in fact some believed she actually died the day before.

The lack of rigor at 10 tends to argue that she died after say, 4pm, maybe even after 6.

Which puts an entirely new emphasis on the 30 second/5 minute visit/discrepancy/lie from Payne and Kate...:scared:

:moo:

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I said after she was picked up the last time from daycare.


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haden said:

The person had no reason to open the window but yet, he-she opened it.
I think this was to mask the fact that he-she had the main doors keys..
And to hand Madeleine to someone through the window.

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I'll ask that question again: why hand the child through a small window, risking waking the victim and her siblings up, when there was unlocked patio door? Why even bother with that, especially that handing the child through the window just has to, HAS TO! look suspiciously and raise an alarm. A person leaving an apartment through the main door, or the patio door would not raise any alarm, unless spotted by one of the friends of the McCanns, or McCanns themselves. And you see, the intruder would not need the main key, because, as I steted earlier the patio door were unlocked.

And the police is not that dumb to not notice that the window was opened from inside, and not forced from outside. So the masking theory does not have any sense.

You forget about the recent Snowden reports and how the government, including UK government has access to all data we ever searcher or looked at..

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The LE is not the government.

Wasn't the patio door facing the Tapas bar, though? That sounds too risky if the abductor knew where her parents and the rest of the party where.

haden said:

If you are hinting at something ala Mr Amarals theory, I checked it out, I don't believe in it.

I believe in current SY work and their recent Crime Watch showed the window open.

The person had no reason to open the window but yet, he-she opened it.
I think this was to mask the fact that he-she had the main doors keys..
And to hand Madeleine to someone through the window.
I wouldn't be surprised it was someone who was very well known in the resort.
This also could be someone from the McCanns friends, the closest to crime scene being MO but I think the Scotland Yard has ruled him out, otherwise the whole investigation would have been solved.
You forget about the recent Snowden reports and how the government, including UK government has access to all data we ever searcher or looked at..
If any of the McCanns friends had a little spot on their 'file' they would be in a very big trouble with the Scotland Yard, but they ARE NOT!

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It showed the window and the shutters UP....

There is no way you would open up the shutters without a lot of noise why risk that. After all if the perb had been watchng he would never have had time to open windows and shutters as the McCanns and friends were up and down like a fiddlers elbow.

Not only that one mustnt forget this little drama on BBC was not accurate not at all.

It is a total known fact that when Jane Tanner saw someone walking in front of her she clearly saw Gerry and a friend talking.

Gerry McCann even confirms that he was talking to this person although he never actually said he saw jane tanner, so it could be that scotland yard did not use this information as it wasnt at the same time, then how come Jane Tanner would make a statement to this effect if she didnt know they were there...so its all a bit odd that.

so the fact they are showing the window and shutters up is to match Mrs McCanns statement that the curtains whooshed etc ......

IF the door when Gerry McCann checked the children was slightly open more then when they left then that would mean the perb could have been inside. So McCann saw her asleep the window, and shutter was closed.

He went outside and bumped into Jez and they stood talking for quite a bit of time. Are we to beleive the abductor was still in the apartment? They would not be aware that Gerry was just stood outside, so if they then opened the shutter and the window surely McCanns would have heard it.

So when was the window and shutter opened? IF we believe the door was slightly more ajar when McCann checked the children then the abductor must have been there for 45 minutes inside.....

I actually think that if it was an abduction the perb went through the front door its dark there.

They could like you say have had knowledge or access to keys ALTHOUGH the key to the front door was an unsuaul one and not easily copied so not sure how they would have got a copy made.

No the fact the window and shutter is open in this programme means nothing to me it could have been opened AFTER the incident...

Those shutters are really noisey we used to have them in our apartments when we lived abroad, actually we hardly opened them just the window especially when we lived in Cyprus as it was safer to do that as anyone could climb in if they were up.

ALSO the GNR when they arrived stated:


First reaction

In early September, The Sunday Times spoke to a detective from the Guarda Nacional Republicana (GNR), the local police, who was called to the apartment on the night Madeleine disappeared. "What we found did not seem to be the scene of a kidnapping," he said.

"There were no signs of forced entry, the shutters had not been forced from outside and the apartment had clearly not been broken into."

This, he said, was why they did not seal it off immediately.



As to discrepancies one of the first of them crimewatch programme was the BUGGY. It shows them using a buggy.......

According to the Tapas 9 statements the reason why they decided NOT TO EAT at the millenium with the chldren was because they had no buggy and it was hard work to carry the twins from 5A to Millenuim.

Isnt that why they got a weeks special reservation for dinner at Tapas?

Surely if they did have a buggy then there would not have been neglect as they could have pushed the children to the Millenuim each evening.

I have some very speculative theories which most people do not want to accept as they have been brainwashed since 3/5/2007 to believe otherwise by the McCanns, the Tapas7 and the media.

But I have been posting on this case since June 2007 when I was in Granada, Spain and happened to watch the McCanns on SkyNews that night.

When I had arrived at the airport that day from China (as I was an Australian on a world trip), I noticed a photo of Madeleine at the airport that she was missing and I felt so sorry for her parents.

But when I saw them on SkyNews, my attitude to them changed as I used to teach body language. My gut feeling was instantly that they were lying.

When I got back to Australia, I did a google search and joined the Mirror Forum to see if anyone else thought they were guilty as most parents are the first suspects and a few of us thought she was dead and not abducted.

I have been posting on this case ever since but not here. However, I post on other cases here. The reason is that what I and others think is so controversial that they have been banned. But I have never been banned from any forum and have been a lurker for a few years. This is because the case is solved as far as I am concerned.

I am not interested in anything that happened on the night of May 3, 2007 except that in my opinion and that of many others, Gerry faked an abduction that night hoping to be seen but not recognised in the dark of the night. IMO Gerry carried a sedated Amelie down those stairs to give his abduction scenario some credence. But later Jane Tanner came up with her version so he went along with that as Martin Smith took some time to go to the PJ with his version of events.

Because of this early speculation in 2007, some of us speculated on an earlier death scenario of Maddie. We then started examining the statements and the discrepancies, the possibility of forged signatures on the creche records and the mobile phone records once the files were released in 2008.

This took several years to work out to put the pieces of the jigsaw together.

I cannot take credit myself for what was found out but the bottom line is that Maddie died earlier that week and a Maddie blonde lookalike substitute also called Madalene (but spelt differently to Madeleine) was already there to take her place at the creche every day of that week. This must be, therefore, a premeditated murder. Gerry took the lookalike to the creche every day with her best friend and forged her father's signature to sign the friend in and signed the lookalike in as his own daughter.

This person who is an expert with mobile phones has been able to prove this but it took him about two years to do so. He is on twitter.com these days as he has been banned on several forums for his research. However he has given all his information and research to the PJ this year.

Lets hope this leads us to the truth!

I posted this in another thread but I guess it should go here:

I haven't followed this case as keenly as some, but having watched the Crimewatch segment, it appears there were dodgy charity workers in the area most probably scoping out properties for potential burglaries. This ties in with the increase in burglaries in the 4 months leading up to the incident.

It looks like they were scoping out the McCann's apartment hours before Maddie disappeared.

I personally think the burglars planned to break into the apartment. Maddie may have disturbed them and they tried to silence her but went too far. If the witness did indeed see Maddie being carried towards the sea, perhaps she was unconscious. Maybe she was put on a boat.

If it was a burglary gone wrong, this could explain the men seen arguing afterwards.

It just seems like this is where the Crimewatch segment was going.

Why the police are so interested in 2 charity workers in particular, is a mystery for now.

Estelle said:

I have some very speculative theories which most people do not want to accept as they have been brainwashed since 3/5/2007 to believe otherwise by the McCanns, the Tapas7 and the media.

But I have been posting on this case since June 2007 when I was in Granada, Spain and happened to watch the McCanns on SkyNews that night.

When I had arrived at the airport that day from China (as I was an Australian on a world trip), I noticed a photo of Madeleine at the airport that she was missing and I felt so sorry for her parents.

But when I saw them on SkyNews, my attitude to them changed as I used to teach body language. My gut feeling was instantly that they were lying.

When I got back to Australia, I did a google search and joined the Mirror Forum to see if anyone else thought they were guilty as most parents are the first suspects and a few of us thought she was dead and not abducted.

I have been posting on this case ever since but not here. However, I post on other cases here. The reason is that what I and others think is so controversial that they have been banned. But I have never been banned from any forum and have been a lurker for a few years. This is because the case is solved as far as I am concerned.

I am not interested in anything that happened on the night of May 3, 2007 except that in my opinion and that of many others, Gerry faked an abduction that night hoping to be seen but not recognised in the dark of the night. IMO Gerry carried a sedated Amelie down those stairs to give his abduction scenario some credence. But later Jane Tanner came up with her version so he went along with that as Martin Smith took some time to go to the PJ with his version of events.

Because of this early speculation in 2007, some of us speculated on an earlier death scenario of Maddie. We then started examining the statements and the discrepancies, the possibility of forged signatures on the creche records and the mobile phone records once the files were released in 2008.

This took several years to work out to put the pieces of the jigsaw together.

I cannot take credit myself for what was found out but the bottom line is that Maddie died earlier that week and a Maddie blonde lookalike substitute also called Madalene (but spelt differently to Madeleine) was already there to take her place at the creche every day of that week. This must be, therefore, a premeditated murder. Gerry took the lookalike to the creche every day with her best friend and forged her father's signature to sign the friend in and signed the lookalike in as his own daughter.

This person who is an expert with mobile phones has been able to prove this but it took him about two years to do so. He is on twitter.com these days as he has been banned on several forums for his research. However he has given all his information and research to the PJ this year.

Lets hope this leads us to the truth!

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Why Amelie?

Yes i was on Mirror forum actually met one of the McCanns on there well family member anyway.

Interesting theory, but it seems a bit convoluted....

A blonde lookalike also called madelane

what happened to her - who was she ?

Angeline said:

I posted this in another thread but I guess it should go here:

I haven't followed this case as keenly as some, but having watched the Crimewatch segment, it appears there were dodgy charity workers in the area most probably scoping out properties for potential burglaries. This ties in with the increase in burglaries in the 4 months leading up to the incident.

It looks like they were scoping out the McCann's apartment hours before Maddie disappeared.

I personally think the burglars planned to break into the apartment. Maddie may have disturbed them and they tried to silence her but went too far. If the witness did indeed see Maddie being carried towards the sea, perhaps she was unconscious. Maybe she was put on a boat.

If it was a burglary gone wrong, this could explain the men seen arguing afterwards.

It just seems like this is where the Crimewatch segment was going.

Why the police are so interested in 2 charity workers in particular, is a mystery for now.

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Hun have been following this case since the first moment it came on the news.

The so called charity workers were checked and eliminated way back in 2007/2008 as of no interest.

Yes there were burglaries but with the timeline of the McCanns on the 3rd there would never have been time to steal anything.

BEFORE the 3rd the McCanns and friends were out everynight not checking their children as they were, this can be borne out by eye witness who for example heard children crying for OVER AN HOUR on the night of the 2nd....

A burglar had plenty of opportunity to steal any other night.

hu? Maddie died earlier in the week?
From what? by whom?
Where was she supposedly disposed?
Who was this child used as a look alike? tia

I don't understand why they wanted or needed a look-alike in the creche, why not just stage an abduction earlier?