NCAA Sanctions: "DP" for Penn Football, or...?

Should the NCAA give Penn State the "death penalty"?


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There is a full blog of them on an alumni site.

For something substantive, look at the "opting out" of the Cleary Act. For more than two decades, they didn't even a policy on it.


A full blog of what? Professors stating that academics took a backseat to athletics? Which site?

I'm not sure I understand the connection between the Clery Act violations as evidence of the athletics first culture. It was a huge failure, one that I blame more than any other failure other than Sandusky himself. I do not believe this would have happened if the Clery Act had been followed. But I do not see how that is evidence of a football first culture.
 
When will they finally realize they're not in control anymore?

Paterno Family Files Appeal Against NCAA

http://onwardstate.com/2012/08/03/paterno-family-files-appeal-against-ncaa/


It can't possibly be easy to lose your father, learn that he was not the man you thought he was, and then watch the community that you shared your husband/dad (and his money) with for so many decades lose respect for him. I completely cannot fathom how Sue and their children feel, and it's kind of sad that in all this mess, people cannot find some compassion for them, at least.
 
A full blog of what? Professors stating that academics took a backseat to athletics? Which site?

Go to the Linkedin site and join the alumni site; the link is there.

I'm not sure I understand the connection between the Clery Act violations as evidence of the athletics first culture. It was a huge failure, one that I blame more than any other failure other than Sandusky himself. I do not believe this would have happened if the Clery Act had been followed. But I do not see how that is evidence of a football first culture.

It is of the "Penn State Way."
 
Go to the Linkedin site and join the alumni site; the link is there.



It is of the "Penn State Way."

Thanks, I will check out the linked in site. If I can remember my password there.

Wait, so you are saying the Penn State way is just to fail. It's not just putting football first, it includes caring about football, but also includes not caring about anything else? I'm not sure how you can tie these together without saying the Penn State way is something excessively broad and excessively horrible.

Edited to rephrase: I do not see how you can turn the Clery Act failures into evidence of the football first culture they are describing, unless the culture you are describing is something where not only is football first, but nothing else matters at all. And I think that is absolutely unfair to the thousands of students, faculty, staff, and administrators who work hard and go above and beyond on a regular basis.
 
It can't possibly be easy to lose your father, learn that he was not the man you thought he was, and then watch the community that you shared your husband/dad (and his money) with for so many decades lose respect for him. I completely cannot fathom how Sue and their children feel, and it's kind of sad that in all this mess, people cannot find some compassion for them, at least.

My compassion ends where right begins. Neither the family, nor Joe Paterno were being punished by the NCAA. Neither the family, nor Joe Paterno are members on the NCAA.
 
My compassion ends where right begins. Neither the family, nor Joe Paterno were being punished by the NCAA. Neither the family, nor Joe Paterno are members on the NCAA.

I'm not saying they should be able to sue. But I have compassion for a lot of people, even when they are wrong, and it's possible to say they do not have standing, or discuss the fact that they do not have standing, without using intentionally critical language.
 
Thanks, I will check out the linked in site. If I can remember my password there.

Wait, so you are saying the Penn State way is just to fail. It's not just putting football first, it includes caring about football, but also includes not caring about anything else? I'm not sure how you can tie these together without saying the Penn State way is something excessively broad and excessively horrible.

Edited to rephrase: I do not see how you can turn the Clery Act failures into evidence of the football first culture they are describing, unless the culture you are describing is something where not only is football first, but nothing else matters at all. And I think that is absolutely unfair to the thousands of students, faculty, staff, and administrators who work hard and go above and beyond on a regular basis.

Note that I am NOT saying it was "football first" environment. I am saying that it was the cloistered environment, which extended into sports.
 
Ah, I'm not sure that it the motive for why the 2001 incident happened was not reported.

I've only found two even close reference, one on p. 129 to the "Penn State Way" and on p. 38 about the department being "'an island.'" I think that one of the criticisms is that Penn State is insular, but that wasn't limited to football of the athletic department, though they noted an "overemphasis on athletics (p. 129)." It is not Penn State football, it is Penn State.

I referred to it as: A secular priesthood of administrators allegedly hiding the monster in the cloister of the university. A pervasive evil allegedly reaching out into the community under the guise of great institutions for learning and charity.

I've called that Central Pennsylvania Gothic.

There's a great book to be written on this scandal, IMO, if the author expands beyond football into the cultural composition of Penn State and central PA.
 
Note that I am NOT saying it was "football first" environment. I am saying that it was the cloistered environment, which extended into sports.


I was talking about there being a lack of evidence of a football first culture, pervasive throughout the school and community, and you said that the Clery Act violations were substantive evidence of that culture.

I do not disagree with the cloistered environment. I think there is some extreme shadiness and borderline incestuous relationships going on up there within a relatively small but powerful group. I was not saying there is no substantive evidence of that.

I still do not see how the failure to implement the Clery Act is evidence of the cloistered environment. Unless, of course, the Clery Act mandates were received after knowledge of Sandusky's crimes were made known among the higher level administrators, and the higher level administrators were responsible for not implementing the Clery Act. But frequently, that would not have been somebody at that level. The legal counsel would have likely gone to a director of some HR type department.
 
I was talking about there being a lack of evidence of a football first culture, pervasive throughout the school and community, and you said that the Clery Act violations were substantive evidence of that culture.

I was referring, as I did in the quote, to Penn State as a whole. I have gone out out of my may to say that this is not a Penn State Football problem, but a Penn State problem. I have also noted that the Freeh report doesn't indicate that this is a "football problem."


I still do not see how the failure to implement the Clery Act is evidence of the cloistered environment. Unless, of course, the Clery Act mandates were received after knowledge of Sandusky's crimes were made known among the higher level administrators, and the higher level administrators were responsible for not implementing the Clery Act. But frequently, that would not have been somebody at that level. The legal counsel would have likely gone to a director of some HR type department.

Good heavens, failing to publicly report incidents, as required by law, is not an example of a cloistered environment? Come on!
 
It can't possibly be easy to lose your father, learn that he was not the man you thought he was, and then watch the community that you shared your husband/dad (and his money) with for so many decades lose respect for him. I completely cannot fathom how Sue and their children feel, and it's kind of sad that in all this mess, people cannot find some compassion for them, at least.

It would be easier for me to feel some compassion for them if they would accept reality and shut their pieholes.

ETA And I have seen no evidence whatsoever that they've acknowledged JP wasn't the man they thought he was.
 
I was referring, as I did in the quote, to Penn State as a whole. I have gone out out of my may to say that this is not a Penn State Football problem, but a Penn State problem. I have also noted that the Freeh report doesn't indicate that this is a "football problem."




Good heavens, failing to publicly report incidents, as required by law, is not an example of a cloistered environment? Come on!

Okay, but you made all these points in response to my statements that there is no substantive evidence of the football first environment. The Freeh report did indicate it was a football problem. In the early pages, the pages that so many people read and accepted without reading it in its entirety, it said that the cover-up was done to protect a football program. The NCAA used that finding to justify the sanctions with widespread ramifications. That the fans and students and alumni created this environment.

Part of my problem here is that when I was a student, "Penn State" meant the students, alumni, faculty. The administration was like this little group of corporate America drones who were trying to interfere, trying to control things to maximize revenue or increase standings or impress people on their resume, even if it meant breaking away from the traditions and the best Penn State had to offer. There was always animosity between the Penn State community and the bureaucrats hired to run the place. I'm pretty sure two out of my four years at University Park, there were petitions to oust GS. Unfortunately, they were never taken seriously because he always claimed he was not popular among students because he was trying to make it a dry campus. Granted, that made him no friends on campus, but it was not the only strike against him. When this scandal broke, almost everyone I talked to from Penn State was 110% positive that GS covered this up, and JVP did not even know about it. Because that fit with what we knew. Now knowing that JVP acted in concert with the administrators means he went to the dark side, the other team, the group he had previously fought on behalf of the student body who did not like or trust the administration.

When you are saying there was a cloistered environment within the administration, I completely agree. We have substantial evidence of that, and it fits well with what we already knew.

When someone says that there is a "Penn State way" or "Penn State culture" that condoned or encouraged this, I can not agree. The students, alumni, and faculty, as well as front-line staff (those interacting with the students on a regular basis) had a very different attitude, and they always have been the "Penn State" we talk about.

As for the Clery Act, I apologize for misunderstanding. I was not thinking of the failure to report because that's a failure with or without the Clery Act. I was thinking of the failure to follow the mandates set forth in the Clery Act for the training and education of the faculty and staff, and establishing of procedures for reporting abuse.
 
Sympathy for the Paternos? Gah, have they ever once showed true sympathy for the victims? All I have ever noticed is them trying to claim that they are the real victims here, not the children. Sympathy for them? You must be joking.
 
Okay, but you made all these points in response to my statements that there is no substantive evidence of the football first environment. The Freeh report did indicate it was a football problem. In the early pages, the pages that so many people read and accepted without reading it in its entirety, it said that the cover-up was done to protect a football program. The NCAA used that finding to justify the sanctions with widespread ramifications. That the fans and students and alumni created this environment.

Seriously, could you provide a page citation. I went through it with a search, and the only person I found referring to that was one of the janitors, stating that Paterno was powerful.

When someone says that there is a "Penn State way" or "Penn State culture" that condoned or encouraged this, I can not agree. The students, alumni, and faculty, as well as front-line staff (those interacting with the students on a regular basis) had a very different attitude, and they always have been the "Penn State" we talk about.

Respectfully snipped, because I agree somewhat. I cannot agree with the conclusion, which I included. We (and I do mean "we") meaning we didn't run the place on a daily basis. The administrators did. They did things "The Penn State Way." We were just passing through.

As alumni, what really do we do? Maybe contribute, wear Penn State gear (I am wearing my class ring right now), maybe go to games, and if were are even semi active, vote in alumni elections, or are active in our local chapter of the Alumni Association. We don't run the place.

As students, wear Penn State gear, go to games, maybe we were in student government or organizations. We didn't run the place either.

The faculty? Well, maybe they ran the students, and yes, some of them had some administrative responsibilities, but not as great as the administrators.

Maybe we are Penn State, but we sure as heck didn't run Penn State.
 
Seriously, could you provide a page citation. I went through it with a search, and the only person I found referring to that was one of the janitors, stating that Paterno was powerful.



Respectfully snipped, because I agree somewhat. I cannot agree with the conclusion, which I included. We (and I do mean "we") meaning we didn't run the place on a daily basis. The administrators did. They did things "The Penn State Way." We were just passing through.

As alumni, what really do we do? Maybe contribute, wear Penn State gear (I am wearing my class ring right now), maybe go to games, and if were are even semi active, vote in alumni elections, or are active in our local chapter of the Alumni Association. We don't run the place.

As students, wear Penn State gear, go to games, maybe we were in student government or organizations. We didn't run the place either.

The faculty? Well, maybe they ran the students, and yes, some of them had some administrative responsibilities, but not as great as the administrators.

Maybe we are Penn State, but we sure as heck didn't run Penn State.

I cannot open the freeh report right now. As soon as I can, I will. It is possible it was in press conference statement, and if so, I apologize for my mistake, I may have read it in the press conference statement and then remembered it as being in the report, but it was accompanied by the blatant disregard language.

We did not run the university, but my fellow students and faculty had far more influence on the values I took from the place. Administration did nothing for me. They provided no guidance, rarely acted in a way that even hinted they cared about the students. But my fellow students did. They mentored without being asked. They ran student organizations with self-imposed rules that forced freshmen members to learn to prioritize academics and fit everything else around that. They encouraged philanthropy. And when we needed an adult to step in, it was the faculty and the coaches who did so.

Granted, the students were heavily influenced by JVP, but the values they took from him were values we now know he did not show after 1998. I see that as he did not practice what he preached, so it should have no bearing on those who were influenced by him if the influence, in and of itself, is positive. Others see that as we allowed ourselves to be led and influenced by a morally corrupt human being, therefore, we must all be morally corrupt. Or that we created a morally corrupt atmosphere, which made him act in such a manner.

Right now, what is being questioned is only partially the decisions made. The rest is the moral character of not only the individuals involved, but anyone who identifies with "Penn State", so the values are more relevant, IMO, to the fairness and accuracy of those judgments.

I'm sorry for rambling and not articulating this well. I have a dog that needs to go out and a kid overdue for bedtime screaming in my ear.
 
I am still getting a file error message when I try to open the Freeh report, but I saw one article quote the Freeh report as putting one of the problems as "a culture of reverence for a football program".

Of course, that article reminded me of another question.

Why are we giving all of the janitorial staff a free pass on their failures?
 
I am still getting a file error message when I try to open the Freeh report, but I saw one article quote the Freeh report as putting one of the problems as "a culture of reverence for a football program".

Of course, that article reminded me of another question.

Why are we giving all of the janitorial staff a free pass on their failures?


Because, in the hierarchy of things, they were the lowest; the PSP Commissioner, Noonan, actually singled them out in his initial press conference.

it states "bad publicity" but not for the football program as a cause, but not the only one.
 

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