NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #10

McSpy · Oct 31, 2013

Captain_Khan said:
Nice one. Seems Maura took a washbag - you can see the toothpaste, toothbrush, shampoo, etc. I see that as further evidence she didn't envision this car drive ending in her death. She grabbed that stuff for a reason.

I also think that might hint she wasn't intending to stay with someone. You might bring your toothbrush in that instance, sure, but why bother packing shampoo? That's something you're more likely to take to a Bed and Breakfast with you, I think.

She was going to wash her hair before she committed suicide. lol

I'm not convinced she planned to go up to NH to commit suicide, but she could have felt suicidal after her 2nd accident. IMO, she was an emotional wreck.

McSpy · Oct 31, 2013

goldiegirl said:
This is really unimportant in terms of figuring out what ultimately happened, but it crossed my mind as I considered ordering a pizza myself last night:

Some have speculated that Maura's ordering a pizza for herself with someone else's credit card may have been a sign of an eating disorder. It could have been. But also... think about it, a pizza is one of the only things you can buy without having to show ID, since you pay over the phone. Of course we can do all kinds of online transactions now, but at the time those weren't as popular. So if you got a hold of someone's credit card information and wanted to test it to see if it would work, I can see ordering a pizza to be a good way of doing this. If they tell you it is declined, well then you just don't get your pizza. But they aren't going to ask you for ID. I'm willing to bet she had bigger plans for that credit card in the future had she not gotten caught, and this was just a test run.

Not that it really matters.

IMO, I believe she had an eating disorder and it was driving her to do things she wouldn't ordinarily do. People tend to rationalize their actions and push aside feelings of guilt when they have an addiction. IMO, she would have continued to use that CC# even if she didn't get caught. Her addiction was driving her actions. However, deep down inside, I'm pretty sure Maura felt awful about it. I have a feeling she was hating herself, which is why she became an over the top emotional wreck about crashing her dad's car. She was unraveling, because she felt out of control.

McSpy · Oct 31, 2013

scoops said:
for the record, I have never believed that maura wanted to take her own life by taking off in her car and killing herself.

I have long believed that maura was going to spend one night in a hotel (write a suicide note) and then first thing in the morning, she would abandoned her car, leave the note inside the car and head for the trails.

I use the arrival time that maura (would've known) as to when she got to the white mountains (arriving at dark as opposed to in daylight) and the fact she hardly had any money, not enough money to spend more than one day in a hotel).

I have always believed the second accident wasn't planned.

One problem I have with this is that she was hoping to rent a particular condo, but was unsuccessful. Who rents a condo for one night?

OldSteve · Oct 31, 2013

McSpy said:
One problem I have with this is that she was hoping to rent a particular condo, but was unsuccessful. Who rents a condo for one night?

Good points about the condo, and earlier about her traveling with a credit card.

I wonder if she thought the condo owner might let her stay because IIRC she and Fred had once stayed there. Maybe she was hoping to get a break on cost if it were empty...

Also shows she might have been naive about staying at places - since as you said who rents a condo for a night, even a few day... maybe a week?

I wonder if all the turmoil happening in her life had her so busy fending off problems, she didn't have time really think and be depressed, just busy/struggling to react to it all.

scoops · Oct 31, 2013

McSpy said:
BBM

There is no absolute proof she packed up her dorm room right before her trip to NH. She was only back from winter break for a couple of weeks. She may not have totally unpacked those boxes or bags. You could be right, but there is that possibility it is jumping to conclusions.

JMO

Police believe she packed up her dorm room and so do a fellow nursing student who (had the same schedule and lived in the same dorm as Maura). So it's their word against the family's word. Family are the only people to claim Maura may not have had enough time to unpack (14 days Maura had been back) from winter break. Her dorm room was completely packed up. All the drawers were empty, art on the wall was taken down and everything placed on top of her bed. I don't know how anyone can believe she just didn't have a spare minute to do some unpacking for two weeks. that is a serious case of spin.

Who would provide spin in this situation. Some random nursing student who shared a similar schedule but had no real connection to Maura or Maura's family?

Keep in mind, everything I have ever read about this case, hearing from people like Sharon rausch, it is made pretty clear that fred is the first one to inform police investigators that his daughter may have come to the white mountains to harm herself. The suicide theory literally began with the person who spent the most time around Maura in the day before she went missing. I would say, you can't laugh that theory off. Fred just might have a little insight into his daughter that others don't.

Now whether or not fred regretted sounding the alarm bells is one thing and reading his quotes and other family members over the years, it sounds like he does regret sounding the alarm and claiming his daughter was a danger to herself.

I think a natural progression from wanting police to not treat Maura as a possible suicide victim would be to feel the need to explain away things such as Maura's dorm room and how it was packed completely up and also the rag in the tailpipe.

OldSteve · Nov 1, 2013

Regarding dorm being unpacked - would be helpful if family or someone who knew her could say if leaving a room unpacked was something she had done in the past, versus this being a first time...

scoops · Nov 1, 2013

OldSteve said:
Regarding dorm being unpacked - would be helpful if family or someone who knew her could say if leaving a room unpacked was something she had done in the past, versus this being a first time...

The very first time I saw the ID disappeared show on Maura and read up about her case on the internet (and came to the conclusion that she likely died as a result of the elements and not suicide) hearing about how her dorm room was packed up and the odd explanation being given by family members that she may have just not had enough time to unpack, rose a big flag in my mind.

I could understand if Maura had some of her possessions in boxes still and some of her drawers empty and some full. I could buy the notion that maybe she just hadn't had time to get fully settled back in from winter break.

But to have everything in her room packed up and in boxes, everything down from her walls and all of her drawers empty and everything piled up on her bed, makes no sense to me if you are to believe the family's explanation.

You could argue that maybe Maura wasn't staying in her dorm room, but the facts tell a different story. Her father picked her up from her dorm room and dropped her off there on the Sunday before she went missing. When Maura left the dorm get together on Saturday, she told everyone she was going back to her dorm room.

When Maura became upset at work that Thursday night, her supervisor escorted her back to her dorm room.

She did tons of searches on her computer and made several phone calls from her dorm room in the early morning hours of the day she went missing.

Maura was living in her dorm and it would be kind of hard to stay in a dorm room for 14 days and sleep on a bed that has a bunch of unpacked boxes, that for some odd reason, you just can't seem to find a spare minute to move or unpack from winter break.

MysteryMaven · Nov 1, 2013

Quoted From Wiki:
"At or about 4:00 pm, by email, Maura informed a work supervisor and some of her teachers that she would be out of town for several days due to a death in her family. In fact, there had not been a death in her family at the time. Before she left, Maura packed her belongings into boxes and removed the art from her room walls.[8] A dormmate reported seeing Maura leave the UMass campus between 3:30 and 4:30 pm. Maura withdrew $280 from an ATM, and was alone as recorded by CCTV footage.[8] This withdrawal nearly emptied her bank account. She was due to receive paychecks in the coming days. She then bought $35–$40 worth of alcohol. She was alone when she made that purchase. Sometime after 4:00 pm, Maura left Amherst, presumably via Interstate 91 north. She checked her cellphone messages at 4:37 pm."

Just trying to focus on the details, but they can be so frustrating. One can look at her actions and say "suicidal", or "just taking a break". They can be construed both ways, so it's so hard to really pin down what she was doing.
Ok, so she told people there was a death in the family. That could mean she was suicidal, or it could just be what she thought was a solid or acceptable excuse for missing a few days of school. But, she did say she would return, she didn't say anything about taking a leave of absence indefinitely.

Then, she packs her stuff and takes art off the wallls. To me, that says, "not coming back". Were ALL of her things packed? Just some things? Is there a link that tells if ALL of her stuff was packed? If so, to me that means "I'm suicidal and I want to make it easy for my family to collect my stuff when I'm gone".

"Between noon and 3:00 pm, Maura made several calls. In one, she sought information on how to rent a condominium in Bartlett, New Hampshire. Her family had vacationed there, annually, for many years. In another, she telephoned a UMass student and left a voicemail. She then telephoned a number which provides pre-recorded information about Stowe, Vermont. As indicated by telephone records, she listened to this information for approximately five minutes. At 2:18 pm, she telephoned her boyfriend. This call ended after one minute. According to police, a subsequent search of her computer demonstrated that, sometime that day, Maura had searched MapQuest for directions to Burlington, Vermont.[8][10]"

Who is the UMass student she called? Does anyone know? What did they talk about?

I do think she was trying to get away to clear her head, and perhaps avoid some kind of trouble she was getting into (CC fraud, car accidents, etc). I think the 2nd accident set events into play that she didn't anticipate.

This trip was really not out of character for her, because friends said she would often take day trips or drive to a different place on a whim without telling anyone. And we all know she was under a lot of mental stress and most ppl. on here agree she was trying to step away from everything for a bit.
I just can't believe no one has found one clue in any of the searches, and there have been no verified sightings of her, that we are aware of.
Sometimes I think there should be another large scale search of the accident area, but after almost 10 years that's not going to happen. Sometimes I think she is still in that area and hasn't been found, then I read up on the case details and start wondering all over again.

scoops · Nov 1, 2013

MysteryMaven said:
Quoted From Wiki:
"At or about 4:00 pm, by email, Maura informed a work supervisor and some of her teachers that she would be out of town for several days due to a death in her family. In fact, there had not been a death in her family at the time. Before she left, Maura packed her belongings into boxes and removed the art from her room walls.[8] A dormmate reported seeing Maura leave the UMass campus between 3:30 and 4:30 pm. Maura withdrew $280 from an ATM, and was alone as recorded by CCTV footage.[8] This withdrawal nearly emptied her bank account. She was due to receive paychecks in the coming days. She then bought $35$40 worth of alcohol. She was alone when she made that purchase. Sometime after 4:00 pm, Maura left Amherst, presumably via Interstate 91 north. She checked her cellphone messages at 4:37 pm."

Just trying to focus on the details, but they can be so frustrating. One can look at her actions and say "suicidal", or "just taking a break". They can be construed both ways, so it's so hard to really pin down what she was doing.
Ok, so she told people there was a death in the family. That could mean she was suicidal, or it could just be what she thought was a solid or acceptable excuse for missing a few days of school. But, she did say she would return, she didn't say anything about taking a leave of absence indefinitely.

Then, she packs her stuff and takes art off the wallls. To me, that says, "not coming back". Were ALL of her things packed? Just some things? Is there a link that tells if ALL of her stuff was packed? If so, to me that means "I'm suicidal and I want to make it easy for my family to collect my stuff when I'm gone".

"Between noon and 3:00 pm, Maura made several calls. In one, she sought information on how to rent a condominium in Bartlett, New Hampshire. Her family had vacationed there, annually, for many years. In another, she telephoned a UMass student and left a voicemail. She then telephoned a number which provides pre-recorded information about Stowe, Vermont. As indicated by telephone records, she listened to this information for approximately five minutes. At 2:18 pm, she telephoned her boyfriend. This call ended after one minute. According to police, a subsequent search of her computer demonstrated that, sometime that day, Maura had searched MapQuest for directions to Burlington, Vermont.[8][10]"

Who is the UMass student she called? Does anyone know? What did they talk about?

I do think she was trying to get away to clear her head, and perhaps avoid some kind of trouble she was getting into (CC fraud, car accidents, etc). I think the 2nd accident set events into play that she didn't anticipate.

This trip was really not out of character for her, because friends said she would often take day trips or drive to a different place on a whim without telling anyone. And we all know she was under a lot of mental stress and most ppl. on here agree she was trying to step away from everything for a bit.
I just can't believe no one has found one clue in any of the searches, and there have been no verified sightings of her, that we are aware of.
Sometimes I think there should be another large scale search of the accident area, but after almost 10 years that's not going to happen. Sometimes I think she is still in that area and hasn't been found, then I read up on the case details and start wondering all over again.

The UMASS student Maura called (actually got the person's answering machine) was someone she had borrowed a lab coat from and Maura said on the message to this person that she was bringing it by her room to drop it off. So Maura was just returning a lab coat to someone in her dorm.

You would think Maura would still need that lab coat if she was planning on staying enrolled and continuing with clinicals. This doesn't support the notion that Maura was just taking a couple of days off to get her head straight.

All of her things were packed up in boxes in her dorm according to police.

I have one theory on to why Maura has never been found.

Police/investigators have used conventional wisdom on trying to locate Maura and that wisdom comes from the fact that most car accident victims are found within a mile or few miles of their wrecked car. All searches have been focused on the crash area. Maura may have made it many miles away from where she left her car locked up.

McSpy · Nov 2, 2013

OldSteve said:
Good points about the condo, and earlier about her traveling with a credit card.

I wonder if she thought the condo owner might let her stay because IIRC she and Fred had once stayed there. Maybe she was hoping to get a break on cost if it were empty...

Also shows she might have been naive about staying at places - since as you said who rents a condo for a night, even a few day... maybe a week?

I wonder if all the turmoil happening in her life had her so busy fending off problems, she didn't have time really think and be depressed, just busy/struggling to react to it all.[/QUOTE]

BBM

I think you hit the nail on the head. She wanted it all to stop, so she could sort things out. Who knows? Maybe she was suicidal, but maybe she knew she needed chill out time away from everything and everybody. Perhaps going up north to a quiet place was her idea of a cure or to feel better.

JMO

McSpy · Nov 4, 2013

scoops said:
Police believe she packed up her dorm room and so do a fellow nursing student who (had the same schedule and lived in the same dorm as Maura). So it's their word against the family's word. Family are the only people to claim Maura may not have had enough time to unpack (14 days Maura had been back) from winter break. Her dorm room was completely packed up. All the drawers were empty, art on the wall was taken down and everything placed on top of her bed. I don't know how anyone can believe she just didn't have a spare minute to do some unpacking for two weeks. that is a serious case of spin.

Who would provide spin in this situation. Some random nursing student who shared a similar schedule but had no real connection to Maura or Maura's family?

Keep in mind, everything I have ever read about this case, hearing from people like Sharon rausch, it is made pretty clear that fred is the first one to inform police investigators that his daughter may have come to the white mountains to harm herself. The suicide theory literally began with the person who spent the most time around Maura in the day before she went missing. I would say, you can't laugh that theory off. Fred just might have a little insight into his daughter that others don't.

Now whether or not fred regretted sounding the alarm bells is one thing and reading his quotes and other family members over the years, it sounds like he does regret sounding the alarm and claiming his daughter was a danger to herself.

I think a natural progression from wanting police to not treat Maura as a possible suicide victim would be to feel the need to explain away things such as Maura's dorm room and how it was packed completely up and also the rag in the tailpipe.

Okay, she committed suicide. Case closed.

belimom · Nov 4, 2013

scoops said:
I here what you are saying, but do you really believe Maura just took off for a brief amount of time, yet went through the trouble of packing up her dorm room? And on top of that, she didn't bring enough money with her to last her more than one night or two. and a real key point, she only packed a night's worth of clothing (yet many believe she was taking a week off from school).

The argument that Maura just didn't have enough time to unpack her dorm room from winter break is pretty lame in my book and falls under the category of family spin and not truth.

The supposed packed up room explanation along with the rag explanation by Fred IMO were all attempts to explain away and down-play the police investigators theory that Maura took her own life.

Fred introduces to police that his daughter might have come up to the white mountains to harm herself.

And Fred is also the person (who I believe regretted getting police to believe his daughter was depressed and a possible danger to herself) along with family who have had to then explain away anything that would remotely appear to police as support to a suicide theory.

That is why IMO, fred was quick to chime in about the rag in the tailpipe and also the goofy explanation for Maura's room being fully packed up.

bbm

I think it's possible that she was upset and on a whim decided she was going to pack up and leave. But sometime during the packing up, she decided she just needed to get away and think, maybe come up with a plan. Maybe she left without leaving a note because she *wanted* to worry people - almost in a passive-aggressive way of forcing someone to care who may not be caring at the moment. I have no idea, really, but I don't believe it's suicide.

deca · Nov 4, 2013

Idle speculation:

I wonder if she got along with her roommate or her dormmates.

I wonder if dorm life was distracting her from studies.

I wonder if she was considering moving out- maybe with a friend? Or to another floor.

It wasn't uncommon for people I knew to move around their room situation due to either to conflict or a desire to "straighten out" and study more rather than party.
She could have been frustrated with herself and her studies and packed up, thinking that when she got back from her trip she would stop by to get her things and move...

goldiegirl · Nov 4, 2013

Scoops, those are excellent points. Once question, though - you mentioned Fred explaining away the rag in the tailpipe. What do you think the rag in the tailpipe would have to do with a suicide? What is your best guess about it? I know this darn rag has been hashed over quite a few times, so I apologize if I missed your theory.

Also something I thought of (not directed at you, Scoops): Why would she bother to pack up her boxes if she were going to commit suicide?

scoops · Nov 5, 2013

goldiegirl said:
Scoops, those are excellent points. Once question, though - you mentioned Fred explaining away the rag in the tailpipe. What do you think the rag in the tailpipe would have to do with a suicide? What is your best guess about it? I know this darn rag has been hashed over quite a few times, so I apologize if I missed your theory.

Also something I thought of (not directed at you, Scoops): Why would she bother to pack up her boxes if she were going to commit suicide?

While I believe Maura took her own life, the rag in the tailpipe and its relation to a suicide attempt is actually not coming from me.

Lt. Scarinza (former lead investigator into Maura's disappearance) from his fairly recent interview with James Renner.

"The rag in the tailpipe is its own mystery. "Fred said he had suggested putting the rag in the tailpipe. Was it an attempt to kill yourself? If so, that's not going to work. But why the hell else would you stick a rag in a tailpipe? It's an anomaly."

I will say that a clogged up tailpipe will lead to exhaust fumes entering the car. Read about the deaths of the Buckwild castmember and his uncle from MTV. They were out mudding and their trucks tailpipe got stuffed with mud and their truck was stuck and they ended up dying of carbon monoxide poisoning. It is believed they had been drinking, got their truck stuck and because it was cold outside, they left the truck running and were going to try and sleep until morning time before trying to get the truck unstuck. I believe they had a window cracked (opened) slightly and Maura had a window (I'm thinking a back seat window) cracked (opened) as well.

On Maura's packed boxes.

I believe she was leaving them for family to pick up at a later date, just like she left the accident report out in her car for her father to eventually get a hold of. A rumor is out there that she had her boxes in specific piles meant for specific family members, but I will say that is pure RUMOR at this point as far as I can tell. I have never attempted to verify that rumor.

kimmie0313 · Nov 5, 2013

My personal opinion is that we have two different situations concerning Maura. One situation is what was going on that was troubling her so much that caused her to want to get away- and was she getting away for a short time or planning to take her life. The next situation is her actual disappearance. I personally do not believe that A caused B. It put her in the spot where she disappeared, but I don't believe it caused it. We know she took off on foot and after that I feel that only 2 maybe 3 things could have happened obviously. She was picked up, she took off into the woods & possibly fell into a spot that is unable to be searched. Lastly, she had someone following that picked her up, which I don't feel was the case.

kimmie0313 · Nov 5, 2013

scoops said:
While I believe Maura took her own life, the rag in the tailpipe and its relation to a suicide attempt is actually not coming from me.

Lt. Scarinza (former lead investigator into Maura's disappearance) from his fairly recent interview with James Renner.

"The rag in the tailpipe is its own mystery. "Fred said he had suggested putting the rag in the tailpipe. Was it an attempt to kill yourself? If so, that's not going to work. But why the hell else would you stick a rag in a tailpipe? It's an anomaly."

I will say that a clogged up tailpipe will lead to exhaust fumes entering the car. Read about the deaths of the Buckwild castmember and his uncle from MTV. They were out mudding and their trucks tailpipe got stuffed with mud and their truck was stuck and they ended up dying of carbon monoxide poisoning. It is believed they had been drinking, got their truck stuck and because it was cold outside, they left the truck running and were going to try and sleep until morning time before trying to get the truck unstuck. I believe they had a window cracked (opened) slightly and Maura had a window (I'm thinking a back seat window) cracked (opened) as well.

On Maura's packed boxes.

I believe she was leaving them for family to pick up at a later date, just like she left the accident report out in her car for her father to eventually get a hold of. A rumor is out there that she had her boxes in specific piles meant for specific family members, but I will say that is pure RUMOR at this point as far as I can tell. I have never attempted to verify that rumor.

Hello Scoops! Questions for u... U said that u believe Maura took her own life. I used to believe this theory was possible but could never get around the idea of her not being found yet. What are your ideas on this?

scoops · Nov 5, 2013

kimmie0313 said:
Hello Scoops! Questions for u... U said that u believe Maura took her own life. I used to believe this theory was possible but could never get around the idea of her not being found yet. What are your ideas on this?

Hey Kimmie.

The white mountains were her favorite place in the entire world. In fact, Maura was planning to one day have her honeymoon in the White Mountains.

Why people are puzzled as to where Maura was headed is beyond me.

She was literally at the entrance point of the white mountains when she had her second car accident. If you put 2 and 2 together you should come up with Maura was heading for the white mountains.

All searches for Maura (I'm talking legit searches by trained personnel) have been done within a close proximity to where Maura's car was found. that is why Maura's body has never been found IMO. She wasn't near any mountain YET but she was right on course to enter the white mountains.

I believe she accepted a ride away from her car accident. But, I don't believe anything sinister happened to her from the ride itself. that is my opinion. Maura is believed to have taken a backpack and some bottles of alcohol with her and nothing else.

McSpy · Nov 5, 2013

belimom said:
bbm

I think it's possible that she was upset and on a whim decided she was going to pack up and leave. But sometime during the packing up, she decided she just needed to get away and think, maybe come up with a plan. Maybe she left without leaving a note because she *wanted* to worry people - almost in a passive-aggressive way of forcing someone to care who may not be caring at the moment. I have no idea, really, but I don't believe it's suicide.

I agree. IMO, the suicide thing is a possibility, BUT so are several other scenarios. It is a matter of opinion at this point. I think we all agree she was an emotional wreck.

JMO

McSpy · Nov 5, 2013

deca said:
Idle speculation:

I wonder if she got along with her roommate or her dormmates.

I wonder if dorm life was distracting her from studies.

I wonder if she was considering moving out- maybe with a friend? Or to another floor.

It wasn't uncommon for people I knew to move around their room situation due to either to conflict or a desire to "straighten out" and study more rather than party.
She could have been frustrated with herself and her studies and packed up, thinking that when she got back from her trip she would stop by to get her things and move...

IIRC, she didn't have a dorm mate. She lived alone in the room. However, people on her floor knew about the credit card number theft. So, it is possible they shunned her. I don't know if this was their reaction, but if it happened, Maura could have felt uncomfortable living there.

Just a thought . .

NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - #10

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