Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #3

ThoughtElf · Dec 4, 2008

Baznme said:
bolded by me.........decomp is decomp, no matter what.

Uh-huh. Even GA figured that out by the smell alone.

ThoughtElf · Dec 4, 2008

There is no evidence, at all, supported by case documents or anything else released to date that would quantify throwing AH under the bus as a possible accomplice for Caylee's death, much less any plans to murder the elder A's.

Not that KC might not have had such plans, just that it makes no sense whatsoever to me to hear victims/friends of KC's (i.e. AH, JG, TL) get tossed under the bus over and over again.

kpalma715 · Dec 4, 2008

I think with all the gas cans she was buying and stealing, I think she burned Caylee's body.

awakewriter · Dec 4, 2008

potatohead said:
there is no evidence, at all, supported by case documents or anything else released to date that would quantify throwing ah under the bus as a possible accomplice for caylee's death, much less any plans to murder the elder a's.

Not that kc might not have had such plans, just that it makes no sense whatsoever to me to hear victims/friends of kc's (i.e. Ah, jg, tl) get tossed under the bus over and over again.

agreed!

kpalma715 · Dec 5, 2008

I read so much about this case, that I have dreams about it now. One of my recent dreams I wanted to post here. I had a dream of KC holding a towel over Caylee face and a stuffed animal on top of the towel. KC was smothering Caylee face and Caylee little body was jerking around as if she was trying to break free. KC was actually crying and saying I'm sorry until Caylee stopped moving. I woke up freaked out, but I think that could be a possibilty on how she killed her.

JWG · Dec 10, 2008

I believe that several folks on this board have suggested that Caylee died due to an accidental drowning in her parent's pool. When that happened, a fuse blew in Casey's brain and she went down the path of trying to hide her negligence.

I think some evidence in the latest document dump points to a distinct possibility that an accident occurred at the parent's home the afternoon of June 16. I will repost what I wrote on the Computer Forensics thread (with a couple additional comments), and then tie in a statement made to the female bounty hunter, as well as offer a further hypothesis regarding the source of the chloroform.

Begin cross-post >

On pages 2844 and 2845 are two screen shots of a computer forensic application called Encase Law Enforcement. It appears that this program is reporting the number of files that were created / written / accessed / modified / deleted. The data is summarized to show hourly activity on the HP desktop and Compaq laptop by hour for the days of June 16 and June 17. Although we do not know exactly what each "dot" means in the plot, we can use the information to see a relative usage pattern.

I am going to make the following assumptions:
1) The HP desktop always stays in the Anthony home
2) The Compaq laptop traveled around with Casey
3) Cindy's working hours ~ 8-5 PM so not at home during that time
4) George's working hours ~ 2-10 PM so not at home during that time
5) Cindy clearly used computer for email and managing social networking page
6) Not sure what George's usage of computer was, but reasonable to assume he surfed as well.

Looking back at the screen shot, although we do not know exactly what each "dot" means in the plot, we can use the information to see a relative usage pattern. What I have done below is show the relative usage of the two computers, as reported by EnCase. The 100% from 9-10 PM on the 17th for the Compaq computer means that was the most active computer usage for either computer during the two days. A 49% from 12-1 AM on the 16th for the desktop means the computer was roughly half as active as the previous example.

Code:

            HP Desktop        Compaq Laptop
16-Jun                
12AM 1AM    49%   *****    
7AM 8AM     74%   *******    
8AM 9AM     15%   **    
10AM 11AM   80%   ********    
11AM 12PM   49%   *****       0%
1PM 2PM                       1%
2PM 3PM     82%   ********    1%
4PM 5PM                       1%
11PM 12AM   23%   **    
17-Jun                
12AM 1AM    3%        
1AM 2AM     6%    *    
3AM 4AM     36%   ****    
4AM 5AM     5%    *    
8AM 9AM     5%    *        
12PM 1PM    26%   ***        
1PM 2PM     3%            
2PM 3PM                       80%    ********
4PM 5PM                       13%    *
7PM 8PM                       54%    *****
8PM 9PM                       44%    ****
9PM 10PM                      100%   **********
10PM 11PM                     65%    *****
11PM 12AM   6%    *

My interpretation is as follows:

The HP computer had relatively light usage on the 17th. I believe this was likely indicative of the parent's computer usage. The 11PM to 1AM usage into the 17th is probably Cindy, and after that is probably George - based on when each has to get up for work in the AM. Yes, seems odd for George, but maybe he was surfing Websleuths. :waitasec:

KC was a very active user, based on what we see with the Compaq on the 17th. Thus, based on the level of activity and the assumptions I listed above, I humbly conclude the following:

KC spent the night of the 15th / morning of the 16 at her parents. She is very active on the HP in the morning, probably before Caylee gets up. Caylee gets up between 8 and 9, usage drops. Caylee then plays or watches TV from 9-10 while Casey gets back on the computer until noon.

From noon to 2 PM there is no HP activity, supporting George's statements he saw the two and they left around 1 PM. However, from 2 to 3 - after George has left for work - the usage goes way up. This is the second most active period of either computer during this time. This indicates Casey returned to the parent's home.

Usage abruptly ends at 3 PM. Not only that, but the cell phone records indicate usage abruptly ends at the same time. I suspect Casey was preoccupied from 2 to 3 and not paying attention to Caylee. Around 3 PM, I submit, is when Casey discovers something awful happened to Caylee.

The minimal activity seen on the Compaq (and I do mean minimal) can easily be explained by the laptop being powered on and open and connected to the internet. This alone will cause some small number of files to be accessed and modified. Casey did not really need to be doing anything on the computer.

< End cross-post

Now recall that the female bounty hunter, Tracy, allegedly overhead Casey say "They haven't even found the clothes she was wearing" about those searching for Caylee.

I have been trying to figure out a reasonable explanation as to why Casey would remove Caylee's clothes. I believe such a statement might indicate that Casey, having already decided she needed to cover up her neglect but still in both shock and a panic, removed Caylee's wet clothes. She may have put Caylee in dry clothes, or maybe not. But I think it is those wet clothes that Casey discarded somewhere. :waitasec:

Wet clothes and perhaps a wet towel were then tossed in the trunk. Caylee was placed there as well. The wet things were eventually tossed somewhere, but remained in the trunk for some period of time. Therefore, to add further support to th accidental drowning theory, I offer this sentence from the Wisconsin Department of Health Services:

Chloroform can be formed during the break-down of chlorine-containing compounds, and may be found in in small amounts in chlorinated drinking or swimming pool water.

Some will note the "small amounts" portion of the above, but we do not know how heavily the Anthony's chlorinated their water. Also, I would bet that the small amount is way larger than what would normally be found in the trunk of a car.

ShadowGal · Dec 10, 2008

JWG said:
I believe that several folks on this board have suggested that Caylee died due to an accidental drowning in her parent's pool. When that happened, a fuse blew in Casey's brain and she went down the path of trying to hide her negligence.

I think some evidence in the latest document dump points to a distinct possibility that an accident occurred at the parent's home the afternoon of June 16. I will repost what I wrote on the Computer Forensics thread (with a couple additional comments), and then tie in a statement made to the female bounty hunter, as well as offer a further hypothesis regarding the source of the chloroform.

Begin cross-post >

On pages 2844 and 2845 are two screen shots of a computer forensic application called Encase Law Enforcement. It appears that this program is reporting the number of files that were created / written / accessed / modified / deleted. The data is summarized to show hourly activity on the HP desktop and Compaq laptop by hour for the days of June 16 and June 17. Although we do not know exactly what each "dot" means in the plot, we can use the information to see a relative usage pattern.

I am going to make the following assumptions:
1) The HP desktop always stays in the Anthony home
2) The Compaq laptop traveled around with Casey
3) Cindy's working hours ~ 8-5 PM so not at home during that time
4) George's working hours ~ 2-10 PM so not at home during that time
5) Cindy clearly used computer for email and managing social networking page
6) Not sure what George's usage of computer was, but reasonable to assume he surfed as well.

Looking back at the screen shot, although we do not know exactly what each "dot" means in the plot, we can use the information to see a relative usage pattern. What I have done below is show the relative usage of the two computers, as reported by EnCase. The 100% from 9-10 PM on the 17th for the Compaq computer means that was the most active computer usage for either computer during the two days. A 49% from 12-1 AM on the 16th for the desktop means the computer was roughly half as active as the previous example.

Code:

HP Desktop Compaq Laptop 16-Jun 12AM 1AM 49% ***** 7AM 8AM 74% ******* 8AM 9AM 15% ** 10AM 11AM 80% ******** 11AM 12PM 49% ***** 0% 1PM 2PM 1% 2PM 3PM 82% ******** 1% 4PM 5PM 1% 11PM 12AM 23% ** 17-Jun 12AM 1AM 3% 1AM 2AM 6% * 3AM 4AM 36% **** 4AM 5AM 5% * 8AM 9AM 5% * 12PM 1PM 26% *** 1PM 2PM 3% 2PM 3PM 80% ******** 4PM 5PM 13% * 7PM 8PM 54% ***** 8PM 9PM 44% **** 9PM 10PM 100% ********** 10PM 11PM 65% ***** 11PM 12AM 6% *

My interpretation is as follows:

The HP computer had relatively light usage on the 17th. I believe this was likely indicative of the parent's computer usage. The 11PM to 1AM usage into the 17th is probably Cindy, and after that is probably George - based on when each has to get up for work in the AM. Yes, seems odd for George, but maybe he was surfing Websleuths. :waitasec:

KC was a very active user, based on what we see with the Compaq on the 17th. Thus, based on the level of activity and the assumptions I listed above, I humbly conclude the following:

KC spent the night of the 15th / morning of the 16 at her parents. She is very active on the HP in the morning, probably before Caylee gets up. Caylee gets up between 8 and 9, usage drops. Caylee then plays or watches TV from 9-10 while Casey gets back on the computer until noon.

From noon to 2 PM there is no HP activity, supporting George's statements he saw the two and they left around 1 PM. However, from 2 to 3 - after George has left for work - the usage goes way up. This is the second most active period of either computer during this time. This indicates Casey returned to the parent's home.

Usage abruptly ends at 3 PM. Not only that, but the cell phone records indicate usage abruptly ends at the same time. I suspect Casey was preoccupied from 2 to 3 and not paying attention to Caylee. Around 3 PM, I submit, is when Casey discovers something awful happened to Caylee.

The minimal activity seen on the Compaq (and I do mean minimal) can easily be explained by the laptop being powered on and open and connected to the internet. This alone will cause some small number of files to be accessed and modified. Casey did not really need to be doing anything on the computer.

< End cross-post

Now recall that the female bounty hunter, Tracy, allegedly overhead Casey say "They haven't even found the clothes she was wearing" about those searching for Caylee.

I have been trying to figure out a reasonable explanation as to why Casey would remove Caylee's clothes. I believe such a statement might indicate that Casey, having already decided she needed to cover up her neglect but still in both shock and a panic, removed Caylee's wet clothes. She may have put Caylee in dry clothes, or maybe not. But I think it is those wet clothes that Casey discarded somewhere. :waitasec:

Wet clothes and perhaps a wet towel were then tossed in the trunk. Caylee was placed there as well. The wet things were eventually tossed somewhere, but remained in the trunk for some period of time. Therefore, to add further support to th accidental drowning theory, I offer this sentence from the Wisconsin Department of Health Services:

Chloroform can be formed during the break-down of chlorine-containing compounds, and may be found in in small amounts in chlorinated drinking or swimming pool water.

Some will note the "small amounts" portion of the above, but we do not know how heavily the Anthony's chlorinated their water. Also, I would bet that the small amount is way larger than what would normally be found in the trunk of a car.

I read your original post on the Computer Forensics thread and it was well thought out. Now adding this info from the female bounty hunter and the wet clothes idea just makes it even more logical imo.

Devon · Dec 10, 2008

JWG, I have already stated on the computer forensics thread that my own theory as to how and when Caylee died is similar to yours, and now you are also making the same theoretical link with the chloroform results as I have been pondering!

I have wondered whether chlorinated water in the stomach and/or lungs, together with that which might be absorbed by the skin and clothing, would result in the level of chloroform found in the air sample test, which was performed on the carpet samples themselves (presumably the stained area) and not the actual air in the trunk.

I realise there are apparently also computer searches for chloroform which require an explanation, but we don't yet know who actually performed those searches. Even if it was KC, there is a possibility that the search was in relation to something totally unconnected, e.g. adult drug use, or self-defence, or just out of curiosity. If anyone were to examine my PC searches, they would find all sorts of strange and potentially sinister and morbid search terms that I have done at one time or another, sometimes for a specific purpose and sometimes out of pure curiosity, but I sure haven't been planning any heinous crimes!

mkay882 · Dec 10, 2008

I saw this question asked on one of the forums I read.
Never saw an answer.
I'll ask here.....

Can anyone recall if GA said he saw Caylee walk out the house on June 16?
Or was Casey carrying her?

TIA

LP seems to think she died in the early hours....

JWG · Dec 10, 2008

Devon said:
J
I have wondered whether chlorinated water in the stomach and/or lungs, together with that which might be absorbed by the skin and clothing, would result in the level of chloroform found in the air sample test, which was performed on the carpet samples themselves (presumably the stained area) and not the actual air in the trunk.

I am not an organic chemist but what I read a while ago was that chloroform can be produced as a byproduct of a number of organic interactions with chlorine. One example is that chlorine reacts with Triclosan (a widely used antibacterial agent found in many personal hygiene products) to form chloroform as a byproduct. I have also read that it will react with urine to do the same. Thus, I would not be surprised to learn that chlorinated water in the lungs would react with decomposition fluids to produce chloriform.

essies · Dec 10, 2008

mkay882 said:
I saw this question asked on one of the forums I read.
Never saw an answer.
I'll ask here.....

Can anyone recall if GA said he saw Caylee walk out the house on June 16?
Or was Casey carrying her?

TIA

LP seems to think she died in the early hours....

Can't remember him stating anything about what she did or said. Just gave a very detailed description of what she was wearing. However, that would be a great question for GA tonight on LKL! Wonder what he would say?:waitasec:

PaperDoll · Dec 10, 2008

I personally don't believe, if indeed Caylee drowned, that it was an accident. Why would Casey not report it if it was? Accidental drownings do happen. Besides, Casey acted way to happy after the fact and went to great lenghts to lie about her missing child being kidnapped. I'm not sure how Caylee died, hard for me to guess. :waitasec:

Balthazar · Dec 10, 2008

Devon said:
JWG, I have already stated on the computer forensics thread that my own theory as to how and when Caylee died is similar to yours, and now you are also making the same theoretical link with the chloroform results as I have been pondering!

I have wondered whether chlorinated water in the stomach and/or lungs, together with that which might be absorbed by the skin and clothing, would result in the level of chloroform found in the air sample test, which was performed on the carpet samples themselves (presumably the stained area) and not the actual air in the trunk.

I realise there are apparently also computer searches for chloroform which require an explanation, but we don't yet know who actually performed those searches. Even if it was KC, there is a possibility that the search was in relation to something totally unconnected, e.g. adult drug use, or self-defence, or just out of curiosity. If anyone were to examine my PC searches, they would find all sorts of strange and potentially sinister and morbid search terms that I have done at one time or another, sometimes for a specific purpose and sometimes out of pure curiosity, but I sure haven't been planning any heinous crimes!

This question was answered by medical experts on Nancy Grace. They said for the level and purity of the chloroform found, it would be impossible for it to have formed naturally from a combination of swimming pool water and a dead body. However, one thing I did think of was this: the Anthony's obviously had various pool chemicals at their home. I wondered if perhaps Caylee accidentally ingested a shock treatment pak or other chemical combination that resulted in her accidental death. Remember how on On The Record the Anthony's talked about how Caylee had just recently gotten so mobile and was into everything that they had to start locking the sheds? Remember that TL busted the lock to get into the shed to help Casey get the gas cans. What if the lock wasn't replaced immediately? Or what if the lock was only put in place after Caylee's disappearance? Or what if the chemicals had been taken out to be used on the pool, but were set aside and forgotten and Caylee got to them? Or someone forgot and left the shed unlocked and Caylee was playing in the back yard and got into the shed?

bookworm474 · Dec 10, 2008

JWG said:
I am not an organic chemist but what I read a while ago was that chloroform can be produced as a byproduct of a number of organic interactions with chlorine. One example is that chlorine reacts with Triclosan (a widely used antibacterial agent found in many personal hygiene products) to form chloroform as a byproduct. I have also read that it will react with urine to do the same. Thus, I would not be surprised to learn that chlorinated water in the lungs would react with decomposition fluids to produce chloriform.

Ok.. then would a high heat index in trunk modify or increase amount of Chloroform?????

Balthazar · Dec 10, 2008

Just to be as clear as possible, the expert on Nancy Grace said due to the extremely high level of chloroform, what was in the trunk was pure chloroform, not an accidental byproduct of drowning or decomposition.

Truth Seeker · Dec 10, 2008

I want to know what the "indent" was beside the swimming pool that GA showed to LE!!! He didn't even know what it was.

Why was the gate to the swimming pool left open and the ladder was still in the pool??

Recovering-Lurker · Dec 10, 2008

mkay882 said:
I saw this question asked on one of the forums I read.
Never saw an answer.
I'll ask here.....

Can anyone recall if GA said he saw Caylee walk out the house on June 16?
Or was Casey carrying her?

TIA

LP seems to think she died in the early hours....

He did say she was wearing sunglasses, and I don't think she'd put sunglasses on her if she was carrying her. Who knows if the whole thing really happened anyway.

kageykaren · Dec 10, 2008

I remember CA giving her staement to Le staing they were getting the pool ready for the season. Wouldn't that mean high levels of chlorine from shocking the pool in early june.? Could Caylee have ingested those strong shocking chemicals? I feel JWG is spot on with time of death theory and possibly cause.

JWG · Dec 10, 2008

Princess Rose said:
Just to be as clear as possible, the expert on Nancy Grace said due to the extremely high level of chloroform, what was in the trunk was pure chloroform, not an accidental byproduct of drowning or decomposition.

PR, I hate to argue with you because I like reading your posts, but here goes anyway...

I just did an exhaustive search on Nancy Grace transcripts and this is the best I could find:

NATISHA LANCE, PRODUCER, NANCY GRACE: Well, there were searches for chloroform on the computer. However, the chloroform that was found in the trunk, experts have said that it was in such a pure form that it couldn`t have come from any type of cleaning solvent or anything like that. It had to have come from a pure form of chloroform itself.

I then did a search of Greta Wire, and this is the best I could extract from a comment posted (the original source was a WESH article, and the link is posted there):

Local Chemist Calls Chloroform In Anthonys Car Definitive
Sources with knowledge of the investigation told WESH 2 that air samples from Casey Anthonys car came back positive for vaporized chloroform.

I think its as significant or more significant than finding decomposition products, chemist Jeff Flowers said.

Flowers has testified in state and federal court as an expert and said positive tests for vaporized chloroform mean those results could not have come from cleaning products, human body fluids or a mixture of anything else. Flowers said it had to have been pure chloroform.

It could not have come from a chemical reaction in the trunk. Its impossible. That solvent could knock out the driver of the car. Its a very dangerous thing to have that material in your car, Flowers said.

Now, going back to the forensic report, the comments say there was an unusually large concentration of chloroform - far greater than what is typically seen in human decomposition. However, nowhere in the report is purity discussed, nor is the actual concentration value indicated. None of the released materials contain this value.

Note that Flowers is not on the currently available witness list and probably has not seen the detailed and final report. Without seeing the report, I don't think his particular claims are valid.

I humbly submit, therefore, that no one has truly (publicly) ruled out the possibility decomposing lungs filled with chlorinated water could have created chloroform concentrations far greater than what is typically seen in human decomposition.

AZlawyer · Dec 10, 2008

JWG--I agree that we can't say for sure it was pure chloroform. However, once I learned that there were searches for chloroform on the computer back in March 2008, when KC was just turning 21 and thinking she should be free to drink and party and play and not have to be a slave to her parents and child...I decided it would be too much of a coincidence if a terrible accident just happened to occur with Caylee 3 months later that ended up creating and mixing the necessary ingredients for chloroform in KC's trunk. But I am keeping in mind that it was not necessarily pure chloroform, because that means KC might have mixed it herself rather than having to find some source to buy/steal pure chloroform.

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