The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992 - #4

Trooogrit · Aug 6, 2009

Missouri Mule said:
This is the great mystery. Why was there no forensic evidence inside the home? The ONLY thing, to my knowledge, we have ever been advised is that it is an established fact that Stacy is known to have exited out the front OR her DNA was found on the front porch. (the exact circumstances are not known). That suggests to me that PERHAPS the women were abducted outside the home. And then, this goes back to the disputed George's sighting. It does not, however, explain the stacked purses. I don't have a good explanation for that dichotomy. They obviously didn't stack themselves, although I suppose it is possible that the girls stayed outside and they gave their purses to Sherrill who took all three purses inside and stacked them. That might explain that problem.

If the George's meeting took place, AND upon returning and the girls stayed outside to chit-chat with the men claimed to be there, and Sherrill came outside to find out what was going on later on, then that might explain why no DNA was there. As you say, Rader left DNA but they didn't have a sample of his DNA to match until shortly before he was apprehended. We don't have any known DNA or fingerprints or other forensics EXCEPT from the known people who were inside the house. This is why I have insisted that they be eliminated FIRST before we go off on some other wild goose chase. Applying your KISS principle, this seems to me the first order of business.

And not to sound like a broken record, I do not and will not, until shown otherwise, that this case was properly and thoroughly investigated. That is my opinion only, but I believe it is well based.

And until proven otherwise, I will likewise continue to believe that Robert Craig Cox, is the lone perpetrator who abducted the women. He has no alibi and he has no incentive to confess to the crime so he sits mute in his prison cell in Lovelady, Texas playing games if "catch me if you can."

Well from all of the articles and research I have done it appears that the crime was properly investigated. Several officers remarked about lack of a crime scene and that in itself hamstrung there ability to do the job the way that had hoped. The house was combed for hair and fibers, and 60 prints were taken from the location. The party goers were checked as well as a large number of clients, most of this information has been quoted throughout the threads. In my investigation of the investigation, I feel ok with the effort that was given early on. Now as far as Cox goes, I am openminded about him being responsible, but there is a lack of information about him. Bundy went from careful in his crimes to a psychopath. Is it common for a psychopath to refine his abilities to a careful calculated killer as Cox would have had to do? It would be interesting to see what cities he was in and when with his work. He is a heavy suspect in the I-70 killings based on his proximity to the killings, he was caught in Texas because of his stalking of a local tanning salon if I recall correctly. I will find the articles and post them later. His locations of work in the Springfield area is what I would look at first, then vehicle, and associates and there vehicles. Unfortunately this is not easy information to obtain.

SkewedView · Aug 6, 2009

Trooogrit said:
Is it common for a psychopath to refine his abilities to a careful calculated killer as Cox would have had to do?

Generally speaking (and I hate doing that when it comes to psychological stuff but sometimes you have to), the answer is a resounding NO. Psychopaths have major issues with impulse control and a lack of imagination...however if it is a temporary condition set off by stress, as in the case of Bundy, then it's a whole new ball game, and you really can't make any predictions.

hannah_b · Aug 6, 2009

Missouri Mule said:
They obviously didn't stack themselves, although I suppose it is possible that the girls stayed outside and they gave their purses to Sherrill who took all three purses inside and stacked them. That might explain that problem."

Forgive me for barging in like this, I have been lurking on this thread for a long time, but haven´t felt I had anything to contribute. Regarding the above quote, I can´t help but think No way, no dog owner would ever place their purse at floor level, not even if in a hurry.

MaryLiz · Aug 6, 2009

hannah_b said:
Forgive me for barging in like this, I have been lurking on this thread for a long time, but haven´t felt I had anything to contribute. Regarding the above quote, I can´t help but think No way, no dog owner would ever place their purse at floor level, not even if in a hurry.

I agree, I have always felt the purses were stacked there by the perp (s).

Missouri Mule · Aug 6, 2009

Trooogrit said:
Well from all of the articles and research I have done it appears that the crime was properly investigated. Several officers remarked about lack of a crime scene and that in itself hamstrung there ability to do the job the way that had hoped. The house was combed for hair and fibers, and 60 prints were taken from the location. The party goers were checked as well as a large number of clients, most of this information has been quoted throughout the threads. In my investigation of the investigation, I feel ok with the effort that was given early on. Now as far as Cox goes, I am open minded about him being responsible, but there is a lack of information about him. Bundy went from careful in his crimes to a psychopath. Is it common for a psychopath to refine his abilities to a careful calculated killer as Cox would have had to do? It would be interesting to see what cities he was in and when with his work. He is a heavy suspect in the I-70 killings based on his proximity to the killings, he was caught in Texas because of his stalking of a local tanning salon if I recall correctly. I will find the articles and post them later. His locations of work in the Springfield area is what I would look at first, then vehicle, and associates and there vehicles. Unfortunately this is not easy information to obtain.

I am generally inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the forensics folks. If they say there was nothing of value there, then, in the absence of contrary information we have little choice but to accept their statements at face value. Having said that, it is altogether possible that there is now new technology that would enable them to gather new information not available in 1992; nearly two decades ago. Therefore, I would urge that the forensics evidence be reevaluated.

My criticism of the case centers on the investigation itself. On this I believe I am on solid ground for making that assertion. Since the administrators have said that we should not make veiled references to unknown sources, I will only say that I believe my opinion is, as I said, solidly based and leave it at that.

As to Cox, I do not believe he has an alibi. My recollection is that the Zellers were adamant that he would be involved in criminal activity as they believe he was with their daughter and sister. When they found out about this case in Springfield they contacted the SPD immediately and if my recollection is correct, the SPD did not at that time have an awareness of Cox. And as we later learn, the SPD spent considerable time and tax dollars interviewing him in person in Texas attempting to ascertain the location of the women's remains. However, he refused to budge and continues to the present day; even refusing to deny he committed the crime but declares boldly that he knows they are dead and that they are buried somewhere close to the home (going on memory here.) He may be playing games, as many people believe. There is no way short of water boarding him to make him come clean. He doesn't want to come to Missouri because he views that as a certain death sentence. So he sits in his cell in Texas.

As to the other possible suspects in the case, what we don't know for a certainty is whether or not they were all properly cleared. I haven't seen the file nor do I have the slightest faith in the reliability of the polygraph. The only thing that would rule any of these people out would be through a strict adherence to provable time lines. If the "porch lady" is reliable, we have a window of time of approximately four hours, from 2:30 AM (give or take 5-10 minutes) until 6:30 AM (when the "porch lady" saw the van). Where those many suspects were during that four hour period would be what I would, if I were investigating this case, want to know for an absolute certainty. So far as I know, and believe, Cox has no alibi for that period of time. So I would put him right at the top of the list. In my view, there is a ready list of suspects that need to be cleared. But we have no way, to my knowledge, to have certainty that was done properly. I am unwilling to accept the SPD's statement these people were cleared. For that, and many reasons, I do not believe this case was properly investigated, beyond the forensics evidence, which as I have conceded, may have been expertly and completely done.

Missouri Mule · Aug 6, 2009

hannah_b said:
Forgive me for barging in like this, I have been lurking on this thread for a long time, but haven´t felt I had anything to contribute. Regarding the above quote, I can´t help but think No way, no dog owner would ever place their purse at floor level, not even if in a hurry.

That is a reasonable conclusion. I hadn't considered that and just offered that up as a possible explanation because of the mystery regarding the lack of forensics evidence. I don't know know much about these purses and what the material was so it is impossible to know whether or not fingerprints could be lifted from the exterior of the purses. If there were any surfaces suitable to leave fingerprints and there are none, it seems that the perp(s) must have wiped the purses clean or was wearing gloves.

Trooogrit · Aug 7, 2009

Missouri Mule said:
I am generally inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the forensics folks. If they say there was nothing of value there, then, in the absence of contrary information we have little choice but to accept their statements at face value. Having said that, it is altogether possible that there is now new technology that would enable them to gather new information not available in 1992; nearly two decades ago. Therefore, I would urge that the forensics evidence be reevaluated.

My criticism of the case centers on the investigation itself. On this I believe I am on solid ground for making that assertion. Since the administrators have said that we should not make veiled references to unknown sources, I will only say that I believe my opinion is, as I said, solidly based and leave it at that.

As to Cox, I do not believe he has an alibi. My recollection is that the Zellers were adamant that he would be involved in criminal activity as they believe he was with their daughter and sister. When they found out about this case in Springfield they contacted the SPD immediately and if my recollection is correct, the SPD did not at that time have an awareness of Cox. And as we later learn, the SPD spent considerable time and tax dollars interviewing him in person in Texas attempting to ascertain the location of the women's remains. However, he refused to budge and continues to the present day; even refusing to deny he committed the crime but declares boldly that he knows they are dead and that they are buried somewhere close to the home (going on memory here.) He may be playing games, as many people believe. There is no way short of water boarding him to make him come clean. He doesn't want to come to Missouri because he views that as a certain death sentence. So he sits in his cell in Texas.

As to the other possible suspects in the case, what we don't know for a certainty is whether or not they were all properly cleared. I haven't seen the file nor do I have the slightest faith in the reliability of the polygraph. The only thing that would rule any of these people out would be through a strict adherence to provable time lines. If the "porch lady" is reliable, we have a window of time of approximately four hours, from 2:30 AM (give or take 5-10 minutes) until 6:30 AM (when the "porch lady" saw the van). Where those many suspects were during that four hour period would be what I would, if I were investigating this case, want to know for an absolute certainty. So far as I know, and believe, Cox has no alibi for that period of time. So I would put him right at the top of the list. In my view, there is a ready list of suspects that need to be cleared. But we have no way, to my knowledge, to have certainty that was done properly. I am unwilling to accept the SPD's statement these people were cleared. For that, and many reasons, I do not believe this case was properly investigated, beyond the forensics evidence, which as I have conceded, may have been expertly and completely done.

The fact is that Cox does have an alibi, whether or not it is strong is insignificant, to gain a conviction they would have to get the family to recant. He was questioned twice in 1992 by the SPD. It was after the review in 1995 by members of the KC police, Saint Lous police and the Missouri highway patrol that they revisited him. This case and the I-70 killings were looked specifically. THe other fact is none of the suspects were cleared. They were questioned as far as they could be, and when the SPD felt they had gone as far as they could they were "not looked as closely" anymore. So Bartt, the graverobbers, the grand jury 3 and Cox are still suspects. It has come down to the need for a confession to get to the truth.
Whether or not you believe the investigation was done properly makes no difference to me. That has been your stance and that is fine, I just dont think that I can obtain any further information on this. I wont waste my time trying. There is a need for new information to solve this in my opinion.

gaia227 · Aug 7, 2009

Does Cox have an alibi though? Originally he did when he got his girlfriend to say he went to church with her but under oath she stated she lied for him. I think his next alibi after that was he was at his parents where he was living. I don't know if that has ever been verfied or not.

Missouri Mule · Aug 7, 2009

Trooogrit said:
The fact is that Cox does have an alibi, whether or not it is strong is insignificant, to gain a conviction they would have to get the family to recant. He was questioned twice in 1992 by the SPD. It was after the review in 1995 by members of the KC police, Saint Lous police and the Missouri highway patrol that they revisited him. This case and the I-70 killings were looked specifically. THe other fact is none of the suspects were cleared. They were questioned as far as they could be, and when the SPD felt they had gone as far as they could they were "not looked as closely" anymore. So Bartt, the graverobbers, the grand jury 3 and Cox are still suspects. It has come down to the need for a confession to get to the truth.

Whether or not you believe the investigation was done properly makes no difference to me. That has been your stance and that is fine, I just dont think that I can obtain any further information on this. I wont waste my time trying. There is a need for new information to solve this in my opinion.

I don't disagree with your reasoning. I agree that a conviction is highly unlikely. But I do believe since we are limited in what we know that the suggestion by "SkewedView" for the SPD to open up the investigation to the public would be a good start.

There is really nothing wrong with the police in stating publicly the number of suspects they truly consider viable. They could speak publicly about Cox and the "Steve" (as identified in Cox's letter) as to whether they played any part in their expert opinion. They could speak publicly about whether any other suspects are really serious suspects or whether they are generally considered cleared although it cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. It would provide the public some sense of where the case lies.

If the police really and truly believes they are no closer to the answer 17 years after the murders they ought to simply say so. But it seems to me that based on the most recent interview I viewed they are unwilling to do that leaving the impression in my eyes that they still believed this case is solvable and will be solved.

I don't think there is any shame in the department in simply stating in a forthright manner that "we have failed." At least it would show honesty. It will show humility when hubris seems to have been the attitude over many years. That is to say, "let us handle this; we are the experts and don't need your help or input." I hope to never get to the point where I am so proud and stubborn that I can't own up to the fact that I have shortcomings and need help when I can't solve my own problems. I hope the SPD would do the same. The public never expects perfection even in a police department; only that they do their best. Because we know so little, we don't know whether they did their best or their worst. If they would be willing to say they did their best and failed I would also be willing to cut them some slack.

Trooogrit · Aug 7, 2009

This article was before the police looked at Cox for this crime in 1996, but it is still the way I feel about him.

We've been looking at him," detective Doug Thomas of the Springfield Police Department said this week.

"The only thing we see so far is this guy's history and the fact that we haven't discovered who took our girls or where they are."

Florida Metro Dec 30, 1995

Indianagirl · Aug 7, 2009

gaia227 said:
Does Cox have an alibi though? Originally he did when he got his girlfriend to say he went to church with her but under oath she stated she lied for him. I think his next alibi after that was he was at his parents where he was living. I don't know if that has ever been verfied or not.

Gaia, you are correct. His current alibi is with his parents. They said they heard Cox come in that night (I'm not sure what time). IMO, I wouldn't consider that an airtight alibi, but nonetheless it is his alibi.

I do not believe Cox was involved. However, I do agree with others that his alibi is questionable.

Missouri Mule · Aug 7, 2009

Trooogrit said:
This article was before the police looked at Cox for this crime in 1996, but it is still the way I feel about him.

We've been looking at him," detective Doug Thomas of the Springfield Police Department said this week.

"The only thing we see so far is this guy's history and the fact that we haven't discovered who took our girls or where they are."

Florida Metro Dec 30, 1995

If memory serves me correctly, Thomas had more hands on experience with this case than did any other detective. Therefore one should not dismiss out of hand his take on Cox. Nevertheless, he didn't rule him out nor did it dissuade the SPD from sending two experienced officers down to Texas to interview him after Thomas made the statement in 1995. One could logically conclude there was sufficient reason to place him high on the list of suspects.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Paper: Springfield News-Leader (MO)
Title: A FIVE-PART SPECIAL REPORT
Date: June 3, 2002

THREE MISSING WOMEN They disappeared after graduation parties. A decade later, the case still haunts the Ozarks...

(Snip)

Texas suspect still holds interest of police, loved ones and Florida family.

By Laura Bauer

NEWS-LEADER

While Ozarkers long have theorized that this crime was the work of more than one person, authorities say it could have been carried out by one man. If other people were involved in what's believed to be a kidnapping and triple murder, police say, surely someone would have broken the silence of 10 years.

Their main suspect is a Texas inmate, 42-year-old Robert Craig Cox. He was convicted of killing a 19-year-old Florida woman who was somehow intercepted while driving home from work at Disney World one night in 1978. Cox - who lived in Springfield the summer of 1992 - walked away from death row in 1989 after the Florida Supreme Court said the jury didn't have enough evidence to convict him.

Through the years, Cox has toyed with Springfield police - saying he knows the women are dead and that they're buried near the city. Having discovered that Cox lied about his alibi on the morning of June 7, 1992, officials are skeptical about his claims.

Cox declined to be interviewed by the News-Leader, but in recent letters to the newspaper, he acknowledges police consider him a suspect and that 10 years ago he worked as a utility locator in south-central Springfield...

(Snip)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This was from 2002 and I believe it is accurate to state that the reporter who compiled this summary of the case had more actual hands on experience of any other reporter assigned to this case over the years.

If anyone knows further information please correct me. It is my specific understanding that Cox refuses to deny he was involved. It is also my understanding that it is his choice to spend his time in solitary "administrative segregation" rather than in the general prison population.

I just checked with two former Texas prison employees who actually dealt with such individuals. Generally speaking, an inmate in solitary is put there because he is a bad actor. In Cox's case I don't know of any such history there. He could also be put there if someone had a "hit" out on him or he was in danger of physical harm. It appears that for whatever reason he is in there it is because he chooses to remain there as I know of no valid reason why he wouldn't eventually be turned back into the general population. I was informed that he would be let out of his cell for one hour a day and escorted in chains to the shower room or exercise room, etc., and then placed back into his cell.

Knowing this, if this is accurate, why would he choose to spend what will probably be the last years of his life (he is unlikely to get paroled being sentenced to a life sentence in Texas), living under these kinds of conditions?

If anyone can construct a scenario that might explain his motivation I would like to hear it. I'm not getting it otherwise.

My own take on this is that he knows of his involvement and simply doesn't want contact with anyone he cannot control. He is unwilling to confess and give up the location of the remains because of two possible motivations. 1) He clings to the hope he will eventually be paroled in Texas. 2) He will not confess to the murders because he knows that he will be extradited back to Missouri to be executed. So he remains silent and in his cell. I'm not seeing any other logical reasons. Thoughts?

Trooogrit · Aug 7, 2009

Here is something about Cox that makes me question his motive for attaching himself to the case.

This quote is from February 25, 1996
"The detective asked Cox whether he would be correct in considering Cox a suspect in the six slayings.

Cox replied that he didn't want to answer the question until after he exhausts appeals in his life sentence for robbery."

Cox used this same statement in regards to the 3 missing women. Does this mean he is responsible for all of the crimes? Maybe, but it can just as easily mean he is using these kind of statements to help him if evidence to convict him is found in the I-70 killings. The I-70 killings have much more evidence on him. He has been confirmed in the areas of the murders and the he had 2 22 caliber pistols in his foot locker as well as rubber gloves. When he was caught in Texas he had an empty holster for a pistol on him a knife as well. There is much more evidence to suggest he is the I-70 killer. So with that being said, he would be executed for those killings in Missouri, unless of course he has information about the three missing women which he would attmept to use as leverage against the death penalty. That in my opinion is the game he is playing.

Missouri Mule · Aug 8, 2009

Trooogrit said:
Here is something about Cox that makes me question his motive for attaching himself to the case.

This quote is from February 25, 1996
"The detective asked Cox whether he would be correct in considering Cox a suspect in the six slayings.

Cox replied that he didn't want to answer the question until after he exhausts appeals in his life sentence for robbery."

Cox used this same statement in regards to the 3 missing women. Does this mean he is responsible for all of the crimes? Maybe, but it can just as easily mean he is using these kind of statements to help him if evidence to convict him is found in the I-70 killings. The I-70 killings have much more evidence on him. He has been confirmed in the areas of the murders and the he had 2 22 caliber pistols in his foot locker as well as rubber gloves. When he was caught in Texas he had an empty holster for a pistol on him a knife as well. There is much more evidence to suggest he is the I-70 killer. So with that being said, he would be executed for those killings in Missouri, unless of course he has information about the three missing women which he would attmept to use as leverage against the death penalty. That in my opinion is the game he is playing.

That's an interesting thought. I'm not that familiar with those killings although I had heard of them in an offhand manner. My thinking is that he wouldn't want to confess to the 3MW case because he knows that if he comes back to Missouri he would be convicted and sentenced to death with Missouri having the death sentence. The I70 killings, without a confession, wouldn't necessarily convict him or even indict him without hard evidence. But a confession on the 3MW case would almost certainly unless the prosecuting attorney agreed to a life sentence and he would likely leave Texas for Missouri but would never have any chance of getting out of prison. While in Texas, however, it is my belief he clings to the slim hope that even if he exhausts every possible appeal he will somehow get paroled at the first time he become eligible. In his mind he is not yet in for life although I doubt seriously he will be paroled although that is purely my own opinion based on harsh Texas justice as I observe it living here.

So it seems to me the only reason short of shame over his crimes, which I doubt, is that he fears death above all. Otherwise he would do the halfway decent thing and give up the knowledge of the remains of the women if he is guilty. If he is not, then I would think it would be in his interest, unless he fears he will be killed in prison by another inmate or group, to deny he was the killer and thereby get released into the general population. Certainly this seems preferable to being locked up 23 hours a day in a cell room, without television, air conditioning or any normal human contact. He spends his days just looking at the four walls, a basic commode sink and bed with limited reading material for the rest of his life. And then when he is let out one hour a day he gets shackled and led about the prison by two prison guards. I should think that is even worse than being put to death. At the very least it would drive a half-way sane person completely nuts.

So if someone has a better explanation for his obstinacy, I would be all ears and eyes. I can't think of any other rational reason except to avoid the death penalty. But that's just me.

Hurricane · Aug 8, 2009

SkewedView – I am in agreement with you on many of your points. However I feel that those same points can be made to substantiate a circumstantial case for a sex crime of rape, burglary, or home invasion gone wrong and do not in themselves necessarily point to a serial killer.

First get rid of the assumption that the perp was known to the victims or otherwise had to enter through the front door just because there was no sign of forced entry and Sherrill was security conscious.

there was a need for windows to be open to properly ventilate the home

very likely would have opted to open the sliding glass door

you have a viable means of entry that would not show the next day,

Because of the broken porch light globe and because SPD has said publicly that a “ruse” may have been used to gain entry, and because the FBI “profiler” said that “at least one of the women knew one of the men who lured them out” (N-L, July 8, 1992), it tends to keep the focus on the front door as being the entry point. The previous occupant who lived there for over 5 yrs has said that there was no lock on the sliding glass door and that the windows in Suzie’s bedroom (converted garage) had no locks. The landlord/owner who sold the property to Sherrill Levitt also said that the sliding glass door did not have a lock on it. If Sherrill had added locks to those door and windows after purchasing the property she would have been required to notify him in writing because he was carrying a second mortgage for her, and the bank carrying the first mortgage required it. He has said that he can’t recall for sure but believes that she had not installed any locks after acquiring the property. So in my opinion the logical point of entry for any serial killer or home invasion perp(s) who, because of their “trade” would seek out the easiest point of entry, would have been the sliding glass door whether it was open for ventilation or closed and unable to be locked.

the only reason Rader made his kills ‘on site’ is because he did not have a secure location to remove his victims to…

The perp and women/bodies then go to his prechosen safe area (either a local one shot or a non-local long term one),
if I am right, then our perp is a stranger, quite likely not from the immediate area, probably either transient or traveling a lot through their job,

I agree that there is a second crime scene out there somewhere which has yet to be found. That certainly would substantiate why there was little or no known forensic evidence recovered from the house. However if the perp is a stranger or traveler in the area then the second crime scene is most likely not in the immediate area, and I would think that the time for prior sightings during his trolling, such as the white van being seen, would probably be limited to days and certainly not weeks.

Two weeks before the fateful night, our villain spots (most likely) Suzie whilst out trolling (which he may have been doing for any amount of time, and over any size territory

Click to expand...

Again, I think the idea of a stranger (unless he was now living in SPFG) or traveler thru the area trolling for up to two weeks is probably a stretch to make.

This also opens up the possibility that the perp was just doing a test run that night, but then found that the circumstances were just too tempting to resist (easy point of entry because of fumes, an additional hot teen to grab, nearest neighbor is out of town), and decided to make it a go

What if the perp(s) original plan for that night involved a different crime but still in that neighborhood? For a couple of weeks prior to June 7th a white van was seen driving in and out of the neighborhood. What if the perp(s) were day laborers working on a job at one of the affluent estate type homes just to the west? They could have been working as painters, roofers, landscapers, or concrete workers. I doubt that they were working inside somewhere, as carpet layers for example, because they would most likely have been identified. Just about all of those trades could/would require a van. And much was made shortly after the abduction about a couple of missing concrete workers with a similar van.

Suppose for a moment that they had been working in the area for a couple of weeks and the job was coming to an end during the first week of June. It was hard work. Burglary was easier and fit their history better. During the weeks while working in the area they had learned which of the affluent homes had security systems; which homes were occupied during the daytime because their occupants were retired; who still worked and what time did they leave and return each day; which homes had dogs; and what the area was like after dark.

If the white van and the green van are the same vehicle then there had to be a reason why it was painted. In preparation for the planned burglary, between the day that the job was completed and the night of June 6th the van was given a cheap, green paint job to disguise it from their white van which would have been seen in the area as they worked. But something went wrong with the plan on the night of June 6th-7th. Perhaps the targeted house was occupied instead of the owners being away at their lake house for the weekend. Perhaps it was occupied with party guests. Who knows? The perp(s) was/were all worked up with no place to go, until they saw Sherrill’s bedroom table lamp on with the window blinds raised up 1/4th their length. As you said, “the circumstances were just too tempting to resist”. The game plan then changed.

I’ll break here and continue in my following post.

Hurricane · Aug 8, 2009

an assailant can, once the victims are bound, conceivably strangle them into unconsciousness and buy enough time to pretty much do whatever one wants, which in our perps case can be going to retrieve the van, leaving the women alone without having to worry, and then loading them into it without a struggle to draw attention, rendering them unconscious again as needed. It is also conceivable that if the perp just gets off on the killing itself, the women could have been strangled to death in a short period and then their bodies taken off site for disposal,

If the perp knows how to do controlled strangulation, then we get the render them unconscious for a controlled exit strategy.

If the perp(s) was/were attempting to strangle the women into unconsciousness and one of them resisted and fought back, then things could have gone bad quickly resulting in the first murder. Whether the two remaining women knew the third one was dead or thought that she was just unconscious, at that point their fate was sealed.

just a matter of having her calm the dog/sticking it in the closet

Click to expand...

It has been speculated here before that the dog being forced into the closet might explain the shoes and some of her clothes being scattered out on the floor of Sherrill’s bedroom. Unless the dog was entirely intimidated and went into submission mode I would think that it would have continued to try and dig its way out of the closet, leaving scratch marks on the backs of the sliding doors at a minimum. We don’t know if SPD found any such signs of the dog having been in the closet.

he realizes that he needs to move Sherril’s car

I don’t think that it would be necessary to move Sherrill’s car in order to make room for a van or second vehicle to park behind it, unless it was parked in the drive half-way between the street and the carport. It would not be necessary for her car to be under the carport as it was found in order for a second vehicle to park behind it. But if she just pulled up to the carport there would be sufficient room for a second vehicle. I think where the confusion comes from concerning her car having been moved comes from witnesses who may or may not be in conflict with each other. One witness said that Suzie’s car was facing east when it was normally parked facing west or else parked directly behind Sherrill’s car facing north. A second witness said that he saw the cars parked differently at 3:45 a.m. than they were found later that day. (N-L, Aug. 3, 1992). We know that the 3:45 a.m. witness was not the paper carrier since it was quoted as he and the paper carrier’s sighting of the van on S. Kentwood Ave wasn’t until 4:30 a.m., her normal route time. What we don’t know is what the paper carrier did say about how she saw the cars parked on any given morning vs. that morning at 4:30 a.m., unless she was the one giving the statement about Suzie’s car being parked facing east. Therefore all the discussion about a perp gathering up the purses looking for keys and then returning Sherrill’s keys into her purse, staging the crime may not be necessary.

as far as van sightings go, I’m sticking with the papergirl sighting of the van parked nearby, and the multiple over two weeks sightings, as they came out immediately and didn’t contain any extraneous detail – for some reason I just don’t trust the porch-lady account.

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I believe the paper carrier’s sighting of a van on S. Kentwood at 4:30 a.m. is a valid sighting also. SPD accounted for the difference in the colors between the sightings of the paper carrier and the porch lady at 6:30 a.m. because of the difference in the lighting at that time of morning. The only other major difference between the two sightings as far as what was available for each to see was the fact that the paper carrier reported rust along the bottom of the side of the van. During the paper carrier’s sighting the van was parked and not moving. This could have been rust and the porch lady just didn’t notice it, but more likely it was shadows from the night shade from the trees growing along S. Kentwood. There are/were several large trees in that area along S. Kentwood. If I was attempting to hide a van as best as I could at that time of morning I would park it under the night shade of one of those trees, keeping it out of as much light as possible. As noted before, the problem that I have with the porch lady’s sighting is simply if she would have been able to see and hear everything that she says that she did, or was her sighting embellished somewhat.

I find this scenario to be far more KISS worthy than any conspiracy theories involving drug hits or hidden money, as the flaws in those types of victims’ backgrounds that draw the fire down on them tend to come out to the police and media pretty quickly in the post Eisenhower US.

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I agree 100% with the KISS principle and would only add to your list of conspiracy theories the conspiracy of a cover up by LE at the direction of higher ups or the rich and wealthy. That theory and those implicated doesn’t ever seem to stop until we eventually get to the “high cabal” or the “New World Order” directing the cover up. These victims have been investigated thoroughly and along with LE have been run through the rumor mill since the early days of this investigation without an ounce of anything being uncovered to substantiate these theories or rumors.

Hurricane · Aug 8, 2009

:woohoo:

SkewedView said:
I have never been too impressed with Rader either, really he's proof that some twisted Angel watches over idiots - however, DNA was not useful against him UNTIL he messed up and handed them his identity on a silver platter...it was useless until then, because he had never been in trouble with the law...that's what makes him a great example of why this case may end up being unsolvable...

if the perp here is an 'under the radar' type of killer that keeps out of trouble other than his lethal escapades, or if there is no DNA at the initial crime scene (which is very likely in a case where any rapes or murders took place elsewhere), then it's another BTK situation,[/quote] except this guy doesn't seem to be the 'play with the cops' type, unless it actually is Cox.

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Or if he/they are in prison for other crimes. Or dead. A couple of suspects who were snitched out at one point are now dead.

Hurricane · Aug 8, 2009

SkewedView said:
I wouldn't say that it's at all surprising for there to be a lack of forensic evidence in this case, as there was no sexual activity or violence to leave any DNA, and if it was a home invasion, the perp most likely wore gloves and something to keep his hair from being left behind...that pretty much accounts for all of it other than maybe some bits from his clothes,

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and with all of the activity in the house the next day, even that would be lost...it's actually surprising how clean an initial crime scene can be if nothing really happens there other than securing the victim.

That having been said, on reflection I realized that I can say from personal experience that the 'followed the girls home from the parties and let in by them' scenario is definitely viable, and without requiring that the girls knew the perp before that night either (I can provide detail on my own experience to show why I say that, but I don't want to risk hijacking the thread, so I'll wait until someone tells me it'll be okay), and in that case if LE didn't manage to get the names of all of the party-goers, that's some bad...mind you, getting such a list when the parties have under-age drinkers at them is well-nigh impossible, so I wouldn't call that a botched investigation, merely incomplete.

Exactly. Only an idiot would commit such a crime without gloves or a head covering of some kind. There have been other examples sighted here of crimes of abduction where no forensic evidence was found at the points of abduction; the apartments of Joan Butler, and Theresa Brown & Christine Rousch.

There may possibly still be two crime scenes out there somewhere to yet be discovered which could possibly still contain forensic evidence; the van and the second location where things happened.

Hurricane · Aug 8, 2009

SkewedView said:
I wouldn't say that it's at all surprising for there to be a lack of forensic evidence in this case, as there was no sexual activity or violence to leave any DNA, and if it was a home invasion, the perp most likely wore gloves and something to keep his hair from being left behind...that pretty much accounts for all of it other than maybe some bits from his clothes, and with all of the activity in the house the next day, even that would be lost...it's actually surprising how clean an initial crime scene can be if nothing really happens there other than securing the victim.

That having been said, on reflection I realized that I can say from personal experience that the 'followed the girls home from the parties and let in by them' scenario is definitely viable, and without requiring that the girls knew the perp before that night either (I can provide detail on my own experience to show why I say that, but I don't want to risk hijacking the thread, so I'll wait until someone tells me it'll be okay),

Click to expand...

and in that case if LE didn't manage to get the names of all of the party-goers, that's some bad...mind you, getting such a list when the parties have under-age drinkers at them is well-nigh impossible, so I wouldn't call that a botched investigation, merely incomplete.

Without violating any forum rules, please do.

tangledweb · Aug 8, 2009

Hurricane: "One witness said that Suzies car was facing east when it was normally parked facing west or else parked directly behind Sherrills car facing north. A second witness said that he saw the cars parked differently at 3:45 a.m. than they were found later that day."

So, would the second witnesse's observation line up with the first witness's observation or conflict with it? How were the cars parked differently? Different than the first witness's account that they were facing east?

Could someone have moved the vehicles after the women got home or used at least one of them to transport the women to a different location and then returned the vehicle back to the home?

Maybe when the girl's came home they did park behind Sherrill's car knowing that they'd be leaving early in the morning before Sherrill needed her car. Maybe someone Sherrill knew (and the girls also maybe knew) used the ruse sometime after bartime that he needed a ride home because he was too drunk to drive. Maybe it wasn't a ruse and wasn't planned or maybe it was. Why else would they have opened the door at that time of night?

The girls then moved their vehicles to the new location in front of the house so Sherrill could get her vehicle out, Sherrill then drove (or attempted to drive) the unknown person where he (they) wanted to go, something happened that wasn't supposed to happen (an argument that got out of hand maybe). The unknown person(s) then used her car to drive back to the house sometime after the other two had already gotten ready for bed, used Sherrill's front door key to enter the house, took them while they slept and when he got back after securing them elsewhere, he parked Sherrill's vehicle farther up in the carport, replaced the keys (and maybe her purse) with the other purses and then left the home on foot or got a ride.

This scenario could explain how he/they managed to overcome three women by separating them and then taking the other two who were probably half-asleep by then when taken and easily overpowered.

So, who would Sherrill have known and trusted? The perp doesn't necessarily have to be a stranger nor does the motive have to be sexual. The perp(s) was/were known to the women and once he/they crossed the line this was the reason they had to be disposed of.

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