"Reckless, irresponsible": Kansas teacher's "gay is same as murder" Facebook rant

Soulmagent · May 21, 2012

wfgodot said:
A fool and his job are soon parted.

His equation of homosexuality and murder actively indicates that he would not be able to teach gay or lesbian students in a non-discriminatory manner. He has no place in public education.

Yes, we're free to state our opinion; but we're also liable for the beliefs we hold - especially those we express in public forums like Facebook.

Misled again !!

Cappuccino · May 21, 2012

Soulmagent said:
He listed cheating and lying as well.

I think you might have made the point for yourself . According to someones elses dogma . If you find their belief system appalling ,that is your right. You however cannot prejudice agaisnt them for their belief.It is protected under the same rights that your sexual orientation is protected under. You can speak freely on how you feel about this teachers statement but you cannot in all fairness be expecting someone to be untolerant of his beliefs while demanding respect for you lifestyle.

His speach was not saying being homosexual is the same as being a murder,nor was it advocating any actions agaisnt any group of people.

He has been fired for his lifestyle chioce to speak openly about veiws and his faith. I find it ironic you support that .

I don't think I'll ever get an answer from Charlie09, so maybe you can try instead. How would you feel about a muslim teacher who posted on his fb page that apostasy from Islam was morally equivalent to murder?

Would you be okay with him teaching in a public school? How would you feel about his authority over a muslim pupil in his class who was having doubts about their faith?

Charlie09 · May 22, 2012

Cappuccino said:
I don't think I'll ever get an answer from Charlie09, so maybe you can try instead. How would you feel about a muslim teacher who posted on his fb page that apostasy from Islam was morally equivalent to murder?

Would you be okay with him teaching in a public school? How would you feel about his authority over a muslim pupil in his class who was having doubts about their faith?

Sure you did....Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - "Reckless, irresponsible": Kansas teacher's "gay is same as murder" Facebook rant

Seek&Find · May 22, 2012

Gardenlady said:
But what happens when everyone goes back to the bible and interprets it differently?

It also seems to me that a god who would condemn for gossip just as easily as for murder is a monster.

Or, if we don't want to blame god, we can blame he men who developed this warped interpretation. It shows a distinct lack of mercy, and complete failure to understand what it means to be human.

Ah, but that rarely happens. More often, different denominations have instead built up their own dogma/organization that begins to eclipse God and His word. When we believe in the Bible in its totality as God's inspired word and don't cherry pick, when we study His word and know it, not bits, but the whole beautiful story, it's far more clear, IMO.

God doesn't condemn us. Our sin does. He saves, out of mercy, compassion, and love.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

John 3:17

Seek&Find · May 22, 2012

Nova said:
I believe the denominations that Gardenlady mentions make very clear distinctions between "mortal" and "venial" sins. I belong to neither group and don't pretend to understand all the differences.

Yes, that's all Greek to me as well. Lol.

.

Soulmagent · May 22, 2012

Cappuccino said:
I don't think I'll ever get an answer from Charlie09, so maybe you can try instead. How would you feel about a muslim teacher who posted on his fb page that apostasy from Islam was morally equivalent to murder?

Would you be okay with him teaching in a public school? How would you feel about his authority over a muslim pupil in his class who was having doubts about their faith?

I guess it would depend on the verbage .As in the case of this thread the verbage isnt there for this agrument.

I have stated in this case as long as this teacher isnt expressing his beliefs in his class it is a non issue. I would feel the same way over a muslim posting his beliefs on his private facebook.

I would hold the muslim teacher to the same opinion I currently hold the christian teacher.

Cappuccino · May 22, 2012

Charlie09 said:
Sure you did....Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - "Reckless, irresponsible": Kansas teacher's "gay is same as murder" Facebook rant

That wasn't an answer, it was a PC dodge. I'd still like an answer if you want to try?

How would you feel about a muslim teacher who posts on fb that apostasy from Islam is morally equivalent to murder? How would you feel if you knew that there was a muslim student in his class who was contemplating apostasy?

I'm not asking you what you think his constitutional rights should be, or what the state should do, or what his employers should do. I'm asking how you PERSONALLY would feel about his position as an authority figure in an environment where one or more of his muslim students might be wrestling with their faith.

Cappuccino · May 22, 2012

Soulmagent said:
I guess it would depend on the verbage .As in the case of this thread the verbage isnt there for this agrument.

I have stated in this case as long as this teacher isnt expressing his beliefs in his class it is a non issue. I would feel the same way over a muslim posting his beliefs on his private facebook.

I would hold the muslim teacher to the same opinion I currently hold the christian teacher.

And what is that opinion? How would you ensure that a gay/doubting muslim student in the classroom is not being discriminated against by the teacher's views?

Soulmagent · May 22, 2012

Cappuccino said:
And what is that opinion? How would you ensure that a gay/doubting muslim student in the classroom is not being discriminated against by the teacher's views?

My opinion was that the two teachers expressing their religous beliefs
in a non violent non threating mannor is their religous freedom. Even if those beliefs see it to be a sin ,the same as murder.

You can never ensure discrimination will not happen. You cannot predict it either, nor can you assume everyone who post an opinion on a subject that is protected from discrimination will discriminate. So the same things being done now to reduce and protect agaisnt discrimination should continue as his public post changes nothing.

I might add in a few adult classs about tolerance though ,it seems that the kids get it but the grown up are missing some huge points.

Charlie09 · May 22, 2012

Cappuccino said:
That wasn't an answer, it was a PC dodge. I'd still like an answer if you want to try?

How would you feel about a muslim teacher who posts on fb that apostasy from Islam is morally equivalent to murder? How would you feel if you knew that there was a muslim student in his class who was contemplating apostasy?

I'm not asking you what you think his constitutional rights should be, or what the state should do, or what his employers should do. I'm asking how you PERSONALLY would feel about his position as an authority figure in an environment where one or more of his muslim students might be wrestling with their faith.

You not liking the answer is not my problem.

Charlie09 · May 22, 2012

Cappuccino said:
And what is that opinion? How would you ensure that a gay/doubting muslim student in the classroom is not being discriminated against by the teacher's views?

Would you care that a fundamentalist Christian is not discriminated against by an outspoken gay marriage activist who is also the civics teacher?

Do you really think that discrimination only happens on one side of the isle? That bullying only happens on one side of the isle?

Guess what, the real world means not everyone likes you or appreciates every stand you make - no matter where your political, religious, or any other compass points. Disagreement with someone does not have to include bullying - it'd be good if a couple on the pro-marriage side on this thread could understand that.

Gardenlady · May 22, 2012

Seek&Find said:
Ah, but that rarely happens. More often, different denominations have instead built up their own dogma/organization that begins to eclipse God and His word. When we believe in the Bible in its totality as God's inspired word and don't cherry pick, when we study His word and know it, not bits, but the whole beautiful story, it's far more clear, IMO.

God doesn't condemn us. Our sin does. He saves, out of mercy, compassion, and love.

John 3:17

But it's NOT rare! Otherwise there wouldn't be countless Protestant denominations in the first place (and I single out the Protestants only because they uniquely go bible-only for ultimate authority, as opposed to capital-T tradition, which predates the bible; i have a different and separate problem with the catholic and orthodox churches on this issue lol) who have split and split and split due to different interpretations of different parts of the bible.

So what then? Whose interpretation ultimately prevails? Your interpretation that the bible says homosexuality is a sin akin to murder? Or the liberal Christian's interpretation that the bible says it is not homosexuality that is the sin, but sexual relations that are against one' own nature?

It is an argument that belongs nowhere near our kids In the public schools. This teach made a public declaration, "in front" of students, about his belief that homosexuals are on par with murderers. How then can any parent trust that teacher to treat homosexual students fairly, or to trust that he will field any question regarding, say, gay history, civil rights (he is after all a social studies teacher), etc, impartially?

Let the theologians argue about angels on the head of a pin. Not the public school teachers.

Charlie09 · May 22, 2012

Gardenlady said:
But it's NOT rare! Otherwise there wouldn't be countless Protestant denominations in the first place (and I single out the Protestants only because they uniquely go bible-only for ultimate authority, as opposed to capital-T tradition, which predates the bible; i have a different and separate problem with the catholic and orthodox churches on this issue lol) who have split and split and split due to different interpretations of different parts of the bible.

So what then? Whose interpretation ultimately prevails? Your interpretation that the bible says homosexuality is a sin akin to murder? Or the liberal Christian's interpretation that the bible says it is not homosexuality that is the sin, but sexual relations that are against one' own nature?

It is an argument that belongs nowhere near our kids In the public schools. This teach made a public declaration, "in front" of students, about his belief that homosexuals are on par with murderers. How then can any parent trust that teacher to treat homosexual students fairly, or to trust that he will field any question regarding, say, gay history, civil rights (he is after all a social studies teacher), etc, impartially?

Let the theologians argue about angels on the head of a pin. Not the public school teachers.

Teachers make public statements all the time - this is only offensive to some because it's based on the Bible.

Nova · May 22, 2012

Charlie09 said:
But then we get into things that you are morally opposed to but others poly marriage folks, younger age of consent folks, etc, might not have the same moral opposition to. So a line has to be drawn somewhere. Some people find that the one man, one woman line is fine. It doesn't mean they hate same sex relationships, they just don't see it fitting the definition of marriage.

Interesting because the Roman Empire had many classes, not just agricultural classes - and it was during this time that women were actually the merchants, no longer was it delegated to men only in the stalls selling wares.

As I'm sure you know, despite a relatively small merchant class, the Roman Empire existed hundreds of years before the Industrial Revolution to which I referred.

I don't have a problem with drawing moral lines. I have a problem with drawing lines arbitrarily to suit your prejudices and then insisting I toe them.

Nova · May 22, 2012

Charlie09 said:
So what is your conclusion based on reading and studying all the evidence of the old testament, and what Jesus said about the old testament in the New Testament?

My conclusion is I couldn't care less. The ban on homosexuality is of no more concern to me than the ban on eating pork.

Scholars are puzzled by most of the references to the subject. It isn't clear from context whether some of them refer to all homosexual conduct or only to sex with male prostitutes or the male temple acolytes favored by pagan cultures.

As for Paul, he also condoned slavery and the oppression of women. Not much of a moral authority in my book. But I do think women should at least cover their heads in church if they are going to vote against gay marriage.

Nova · May 22, 2012

Soulmagent said:
My opinion was that the two teachers expressing their religous beliefs
in a non violent non threating mannor is their religous freedom. Even if those beliefs see it to be a sin ,the same as murder....

But comparing homosexuality to murder is NEITHER non-threatening NOR non-violent. Continuing to pretend it is is willful blindness.

Nova · May 22, 2012

Charlie09 said:
Teachers make public statements all the time - this is only offensive to some because it's based on the Bible.

No. No. No. Let's talk again when you've been equated with murderers for a few decades, since you seem incapable of following the topic here.

Nova · May 22, 2012

Charlie09 said:
Would you care that a fundamentalist Christian is not discriminated against by an outspoken gay marriage activist who is also the civics teacher?

Do you really think that discrimination only happens on one side of the isle? That bullying only happens on one side of the isle?

Guess what, the real world means not everyone likes you or appreciates every stand you make - no matter where your political, religious, or any other compass points. Disagreement with someone does not have to include bullying - it'd be good if a couple on the pro-marriage side on this thread could understand that.

I've wrestled with this one myself, having taught numerous fundamentalist students over the years and even one semester at a fundamentalist college.

It's a tough one because fundamentalism is by definition basically opposed to learning. It's certainly incompatible with the scientific method.

I dealt with the issue by asking the students to distinguish between their beliefs and the beliefs of the authors we read. And I allowed them to write about both.

Gardenlady · May 22, 2012

Charlie09 said:
Teachers make public statements all the time - this is only offensive to some because it's based on the Bible.

The issue isn't just a public statement, and you know it. There is a far cry between a public statement of "I hate Mondays! Worst day in the world!" and "Homosexuality is a sin on par with murder" (summarizing).

One does not call into question the ability of the teacher to treat students and subject matter fairly. One does.

One does not inflame against a group that is historically marginalized. The other does.

Soulmagent · May 22, 2012

Nova said:
But comparing homosexuality to murder is NEITHER non-threatening NOR non-violent. Continuing to pretend it is is willful blindness.

How is merely comparing the two violent?

Are you are comparing spoken word to actualy being violent here?

Can you explain to me how you personaly veiw his post as violent or threatening?

I am not seeing in his statement the same thing as you and I am interested as to why.

"Reckless, irresponsible": Kansas teacher's "gay is same as murder" Facebook rant

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