The 90 minutes Terri spent driving around--Do you believe it?

eyes4crime said:

Anna, what was Dede driving baby girl around in? Her truck never left her place of work. Did she borrow a car? TIA

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I don't think Dede was driving anyone anywhere. I am thinking (at the moment) that Dede was at Terri's house babysitting the baby. Terri picked Dede up at work and dropped her off - Dede's work that day was close to Terri's house. LE is canvassing that residential area for folks to put the white truck and Dede and Terri together...

While Dede babysat, Terri could still have been driving the truck to ... where-ever it was she needed to go... where-ever she told Dede she was going, or ... someplace completely different ...

Emma Peel said:

I don't think Dede was driving anyone anywhere. I am thinking (at the moment) that Dede was at Terri's house babysitting the baby. Terri picked Dede up at work and dropped her off - Dede's work that day was close to Terri's house. LE is canvassing that residential area for folks to put the white truck and Dede and Terri together...

While Dede babysat, Terri could still have been driving the truck to ... where-ever it was she needed to go...

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Oh - that's an interesting theory Emma! :yes: Can I ask a couple questions? When did Terri pick up Dede? Terri was at school around 8am with Kyron. She was at FM and checked out by 9:18 or so. Are you thinking Terri picked her up on the soothing baby girl drive? Or before the expo? I'm not quite getting it. TIA

eyes4crime said:

Oh - that's an interesting theory Emma! :yes: Can I ask a couple questions? When did Terri pick up Dede? Terri was at school around 8am with Kyron. She was at FM and checked out by 9:18 or so. Are you thinking Terri picked her up on the soothing baby girl drive? Or before the expo? I'm not quite getting it. TIA

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I think Terri was likely at the FM's when she claims to have been there, based upon her receipt from the first FM that we know about and the meeting with the gym-worker friend in the 2nd FM.

I think Terri was likely at the gym when she claims she was at 11:39.

So between 10 AM and 11:39, I'm thinking Terri could have swung by and picked up Dede just to watch baby for that time period at Terri's house, and brought her back to work before heading to the gym.

Dede had some reason to keep this secret for Terri, and must have believed it to be a good reason - until LE convinced her otherwise...

Emma Peel said:

I don't think Dede was driving anyone anywhere. I am thinking (at the moment) that Dede was at Terri's house babysitting the baby. Terri picked Dede up at work and dropped her off - Dede's work that day was close to Terri's house. LE is canvassing that residential area for folks to put the white truck and Dede and Terri together...

While Dede babysat, Terri could still have been driving the truck to ... where-ever it was she needed to go... where-ever she told Dede she was going, or ... someplace completely different ...

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I know that we can't be guided by rumors, but waaaaaay back in the beginning, there was a poster who commented on a news site, I believe, that said that the baby was being babysat while Terri was at the SF.

I don't know why a poster would say that. But it certainly is interesting with your thoughts.

We still have unknown parties who purchased bat phones, so maybe the unknown party babysat or 2 people babysat .

I think it's interesting that 8:01, Terri was playing a game on the computer. Odd time for that, isn't it? And then to be at school in time to be seen at 8:15? I think she's quite speedy or very efficient to get all of that done.

Baby in car, Kyron in car, drive to school, park, into school, take picture all by 8:15. That's 14 minutes from computer to into the school taking pictures.

Emma, it's a good theory, and I'd like to discuss it more. Could you copy it over to the theory thread?

TIA

ETA: I'm in the wrong darn thread again. Sorry.

BeanE said:

Emma, it's a good theory, and I'd like to discuss it more. Could you copy it over to the theory thread?

TIA

ETA: I'm in the wrong darn thread again. Sorry.

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Hi BeanE & all -

I've been sorta working on this theory in two threads tonight, (here & in the Police Flyer #2 - 2020 Thread) and it's not in the theory thread yet. But what I'll do is pull posts together, try to edit out repeated info & refine things & post it in our theory thread now.

My thoughts grew out of the Police Flyer thread, frankly - and all the input everyone gave there today. The babysitting is part of a larger theory that includes why they are still looking to put someone "associated" with the white truck at the school that day...(someone other than Terri or Dede, I'm thinkin')... anyway that's why lots of the theory has initially ended up there...

So... give me a few...

Gosh I'm tired. Give me a few more than a few.

BeanE said:

Emma, it's a good theory, and I'd like to discuss it more. Could you copy it over to the theory thread?

TIA

ETA: I'm in the wrong darn thread again. Sorry.

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Okay, I posted it in the Poll Added/Theory thread.

Hope it makes some sense for discussion there...

human said:

I know that we can't be guided by rumors, but waaaaaay back in the beginning, there was a poster who commented on a news site, I believe, that said that the baby was being babysat while Terri was at the SF.

I don't know why a poster would say that. But it certainly is interesting with your thoughts.

We still have unknown parties who purchased bat phones, so maybe the unknown party babysat or 2 people babysat .

I think it's interesting that 8:01, Terri was playing a game on the computer. Odd time for that, isn't it? And then to be at school in time to be seen at 8:15? I think she's quite speedy or very efficient to get all of that done.

Baby in car, Kyron in car, drive to school, park, into school, take picture all by 8:15. That's 14 minutes from computer to into the school taking pictures.

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I so totally remember that, and thinking it is sooo odd that baby hasn't been mentioned in any of this. Until AL's interview. Did she pick baby up between first and second FM? Was there a sitter at the GJ? Idk, but I haven't heard word one about a sitter since then, or about baby at the SF or at all, other than the AL interview. I honestly don't know what to make of that.

And, as I've observed all along, TH is nothing if not VERY efficient lol

wondering1 said:

I so totally remember that, and thinking it is sooo odd that baby hasn't been mentioned in any of this. Until AL's interview. Did she pick baby up between first and second FM? Was there <removed rumor>? Idk, but I haven't heard word one <removed rumor>, or about baby at the SF or at all, other than the AL interview. I honestly don't know what to make of that.

And, as I've observed all along, TH is nothing if not VERY efficient lol

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Kaine said the baby was at the school with Terri in this interview with the Oregonian. Right at the very start of the video.

http://tribeca.vidavee.com/advance/...F89C4DEA.node1_backup?AF_deliveryChannel=play

Calliope said:

We don't know if she was pacified by the time she got to the gym. I suppose that will come with the testimony of the gym's daycare workers.

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I got the impression that she wasn't pacified from Terri saying no go in her email.

“I have a receipt showing I was checking out at Fred Meyer 7 miles away at 9:12am. I went to another FM looking for meds for K they didn't have at the first FM. Then I was trying to get K to sleep in the truck for a few minutes, but no go, so off to the gym at 11:20. "

BeanE said:

Two questions -

- Has anyone besides Andrea said baby K was sick? I don't recall that from anyone else.

- For those of you with babies, is a teething baby considered 'sick' nowadays? I've never heard of teething being considered sick, but I'm learning that things have changed since my son was a baby.

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Was Andrea able to observe the baby behaving like a sick child or was it just that Terri told her so? I haven't considered my babies sick when they were teething but there have been times when I'm not sure whether they're sick or teething, if that makes sense.

The gym daycare must have pretty lax policies about sick children if TH was able to take the child there a couple of hours after telling a gym worker that the baby was sick. Didn't AL work that day? She's not connected to the gym daycare?

I want to vote I don't know. I find it pretty improbable that she drove around just to calm the baby for 90 minutes, especially since she wrote in her email that it was just for a few minutes, and after it was "no go" she just decided to drop the fussy sick baby to the gym. But at the same time I'm quite able to believe that she may have had some unstated reason to drive around for quite some time and she may easily have been wishing that the baby would fall asleep during that drive if she had K with her.

&#8220;I have a receipt showing I was checking out at Fred Meyer 7 miles away at 9:12am. I went to another FM looking for meds for K they didn't have at the first FM. Then I was trying to get K to sleep in the truck for a few minutes, but no go, so off to the gym at 11:20. "

Technically, Terri doesn't say she was driving around for a few minutes. She says she was trying to get K to sleep for a few minutes. Perhaps some of her unaccounted for time after the second FM was her sitting in the parking lot trying to get baby K to sleep "for a few minutes."

Don't know why she'd do that, but like I said, TECHNICALLY she doesn't say she was driving.

Sitting in the truck in the FM parking lot would not have calmed any of my sick babies but babies and sicknesses are different. Waiting for the meds to work, maybe? But why not go home to do that?

The articles that we used as the basis of Terri's timeline did say she drove in rural roads and didn't the police name a few, trying to get surveillance footage, interviewing the residents?

How much time is "a few minutes" anyway? For me it wouldn't cover an hour and a half. It seems to me that the email leaves a chunk of time unaccounted for if the trying to get baby to sleep part (driving or not driving) just lasted "a few minutes" instead of 90 minutes.

But I suppose people recount the events of their day in emails and leave some details out all the time.

Emma Peel said:

Maybe Terri & Dede hit up an AA meeting for 90 minutes. Sworn to AA anonymity, they'd have to keep all their alibis from the meeting a secret. Right?:couch:

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...thing involved as well. Not a meeting per se, because even the most paranoid AA members don't go to these lengths to conceal AA membership, but some sort of toxic super-secret perversion of the 12-step bond.

I am reminded that Terri had a very serious DUI with child endangerment incident and judges frequently mandate AA attendance after something like that. A certain kind of person, and Terri seems to have a lot of the earmarks of such a person, can derive a great deal of narcissistic supply, unhealthy attention getting and extremely loyal and furtive behavior from others by playing the 12-step system of sponsorship, confession and mutual support to their advantage. Most AA members are extremely well meaning and supportive, almost to a fault, and well accustomed to exercising a kind of secrecy, even (or rather particularly) against family members, that you don't see in the outside world.

debs said:

“I have a receipt showing I was checking out at Fred Meyer 7 miles away at 9:12am. I went to another FM looking for meds for K they didn't have at the first FM. Then I was trying to get K to sleep in the truck for a few minutes, but no go, so off to the gym at 11:20. "

Technically, Terri doesn't say she was driving around for a few minutes. She says she was trying to get K to sleep for a few minutes. Perhaps some of her unaccounted for time after the second FM was her sitting in the parking lot trying to get baby K to sleep "for a few minutes."

Don't know why she'd do that, but like I said, TECHNICALLY she doesn't say she was driving.

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Terri told LE she was driving around for an hour, according to the second Terri timeline article:

She told investigators that she drove K around a series of rural roads for an hour, saying she was trying to calm her down because she didn't feel well.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5523792&postcount=9"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Please help me get a timeline map together[/ame]

debs said:

&#8220;I have a receipt showing I was checking out at Fred Meyer 7 miles away at 9:12am. I went to another FM looking for meds for K they didn't have at the first FM. Then I was trying to get K to sleep in the truck for a few minutes, but no go, so off to the gym at 11:20. "

Technically, Terri doesn't say she was driving around for a few minutes. She says she was trying to get K to sleep for a few minutes. Perhaps some of her unaccounted for time after the second FM was her sitting in the parking lot trying to get baby K to sleep "for a few minutes."

Don't know why she'd do that, but like I said, TECHNICALLY she doesn't say she was driving.

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What boggles my mind is that in Terri's precise planning of this abduction, her reason for going from one FM to another is to look for medicine for baby K. Baby K wasn't feeling well, and apparently Andrea knew that "from the day before." So if this was premeditated, it was premeditated to the extreme of extremes, because Terri began laying the groundwork the day before with Andrea, by telling her the baby was sick, then Terri thought her best alibi, the one that sounded the least weird, was to store-hop for medicine for her fake sick baby, and not only that, but she stalked, er um, happened to run into Andrea at FM, one of the very persons with whom, unwittingly on Andrea's part, Terri had begun to construct her alibi the day before!

cypress said:

What boggles my mind is that in Terri's precise planning of this abduction, her reason for going from one FM to another is to look for medicine for baby K. Baby K wasn't feeling well, and apparently Andrea knew that "from the day before." So if this was premeditated, it was premeditated to the extreme of extremes, because Terri began laying the groundwork the day before with Andrea, by telling her the baby was sick, then Terri thought her best alibi, the one that sounded the least weird, was to store-hop for medicine for her fake sick baby, and not only that, but she stalked, er um, happened to run into Andrea at FM, one of the very persons with whom, unwittingly on Andrea's part, Terri had begun to construct her alibi the day before!

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Some have said there are too many "coincidences" for Terri to be innocent. I'm beginning to think there are too many for her to be guilty.

Perhaps Andrea was told baby K was a little fussy and transformed that into not feeling well. Perhaps the second FM is close to her gym, and since baby K was just fussy and not sick, and terri was going to the gym, the second FM made sense to continue to her destination, since her daughter wasn't sick. Perhaps she just took some time out of her child's hectic life to sit quietly in a cool spot and try to get her to snooze a little before she's put into more activity again.

All's I know is I've been in a position to take my child out when she's fussy, regardless of how much it would have been better to just stay home, due to all the other things I had to get done in the day.

Among the goals of getting baby K something to help soothe whatever it was causing her fussiness, Terri also had to get groceries and wanted to get in her gym time. Any other day, it was probably just her routine, and taking an hour "for herself" at the gym isn't selfish, it's smart parenting. Keeps a person sane to give themselves one hour for them. Add to that the fact that they had to get Kyron to school early enough to wander around the SF and look at the projects, baby K's morning routine was already shot.

Once again, the whole day's routine was out of whack and to me it just seems like Terri took a few minutes (her words) to get K to sleep in the truck and when baby K decided that wasn't going to work, Terri soldiered on through her routine and made it home at 12:45 or so.

Sure, we can all second guess her parenting and decide she should have just gone home, but we're not K's mother. She made the choices that best suited her child and her errands for that day, having to come up with a blend.

I don't know whether she's telling the truth -- that would depend on the evidence. But I find her story believable because I used to be in the same boat.

I had a kid who was often fussy and frequently inconsolable. The only thing that calmed him down was driving. I drove around like that more than once, to strange and random parts of the state that I couldn't even find again, let alone name. I was having serious post-partum depression at the time and my frustration with not being able to calm him down often led me to melt down, too. Driving kept both of us from crying

I went a lot farther than 90 minutes sometimes. Often the only thing I was thinking was, "He's finally asleep, Dear God please don't let there be a pothole to jar him awake." We lived in Nashua NH. One time I wound up in Bellows Falls, Vermont. Ashburnham, MA. Places I didn't even know the name of.

Today I might feel guilty about wasting the gas, but it wouldn't even cross my mind while I was driving.

Calliope said:

Some have said there are too many "coincidences" for Terri to be innocent. I'm beginning to think there are too many for her to be guilty.

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And this whole story requires Terri to be equal parts moron and genius. FWIW, I'm not namecalling. I'm very serious.

And, IMHO, she's lucky too. If she planned this and abducted him, no one saw her take him from school. Depending on which theory you adhere to, he didn't tell any of his friends about the supersecret trip Terri used to lure him outside, or that he was meeting her, and no one asked him where he was going, either. A seven-year-old boy whose parents admit his difficulty following directions, managed to follow Terri's directions perfectly, without being seen, without being asked what he was doing.

No one saw her pick up Dede or drop of Dede. Depending on which theory you adhere to, no one saw Kyron's incapacitated or dead body in her truck. Kyron didn't awaken from being drugged, or however else he was incapacitated, and stumble out of the vehicle. No one saw her dispose of his body. She managed to keep forensic evidence out of her truck or remove it using her mad CSI skills.

She happened to run into Andrea, who knew the baby was sick from the day before, the cherry on her alibi sundae.

And yet the best she could come up with when building her alibi was to go to two FMs because she was searching for medicine for her baby? And why be unaccounted for 60-90 minutes? Does it take that long to kill the boy she supposedly hated and dump his body in water or bury it in a supposedly pre-dug grave?

Eh, who knows. Either way you slice it, it's becoming less and less likely that this was her doing, IMHO.

cypress said:

What boggles my mind is that in Terri's precise planning of this abduction, her reason for going from one FM to another is to look for medicine for baby K. Baby K wasn't feeling well, and apparently Andrea knew that "from the day before." So if this was premeditated, it was premeditated to the extreme of extremes, because Terri began laying the groundwork the day before with Andrea, by telling her the baby was sick, then Terri thought her best alibi, the one that sounded the least weird, was to store-hop for medicine for her fake sick baby, and not only that, but she stalked, er um, happened to run into Andrea at FM, one of the very persons with whom, unwittingly on Andrea's part, Terri had begun to construct her alibi the day before!

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I don't suppose that the baby being sick was a very crucial part of her alibi. She could just as easily have bought something else from the stores and spoken with AL about something else. She likely wouldn't have known that she'd run into AL anyway.

It's not out of the question IMO that the baby was fussy for real. Maybe she was sick or teething or just fussy because mommy had other things on her mind and carted her around all day, with no good time to play or to rest.

But I don't see why she couldn't have thought about an alibi the day before. If the confusion about doctor's appointment was intentional she would have given the paperwork to the teacher on Thursday, IIRC. Didn't JF say so? I'm sure she is capable of planning things one day forward.