Fatal Friends, Deadly Neighbors: Ann Rule's Crime Files

I am denying that the MAJORITY of the public has not easily accepted the SDSO ruling of suicide, and that the MAJORITY of people believe Rebecca was murdered. In over a year, there were only about 1500 signatures on the petition asking that her case be reopened. Hardly a majority of the public, IMO>

In reality, most people accepted the suicide ruling and went on with their lives.

CuriousGeorgia said:

I am denying that the MAJORITY of the public has not easily accepted the SDSO ruling of suicide, and that the MAJORITY of people believe Rebecca was murdered. In over a year, there were only about 1500 signatures on the petition asking that her case be reopened. Hardly a majority of the public, IMO>

In reality, most people accepted the suicide ruling and went on with their lives.

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And Dina's "homicide" petition has 1587 supporters as of now. I'm not understanding your point.

http://www.change.org/petitions/tel...n-the-investigation-into-max-shacknai-s-death

CuriousGeorgia said:

I am denying that the MAJORITY of the public has not easily accepted the SDSO ruling of suicide, and that the MAJORITY of people believe Rebecca was murdered. In over a year, there were only about 1500 signatures on the petition asking that her case be reopened. Hardly a majority of the public, IMO>

In reality, most people accepted the suicide ruling and went on with their lives.

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Hardly statistical proof.

Of course I don't have any stats either, to back up what I believe to be true and that is that NO one with any sense could POSSIBLY believe that woman committed suicide.

I also believe the majority of folks are of a like mind. At least no one I have spoken to about the case, and that's a lot of folks, thinks RZ could have killed herself.

But again, it all boils down to our own opinions since there is no real hard data out there to PROVE what most people believe happened.

FrayedKnot said:

Hardly statistical proof.

Of course I don't have any stats either, to back up what I believe to be true and that is that NO one with any sense could POSSIBLY believe that woman committed suicide.

I also believe the majority of folks are of a like mind. At least no one I have spoken to about the case, and that's a lot of folks, thinks RZ could have killed herself.

But again, it all boils down to our own opinions since there is no real hard data out there to PROVE what most people believe happened.

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You are oh so correct. The fact is one can believe whatever one chooses and it matters not if 100 or 1 million believe that Rebecca was murdered. What matters is that the murderer seems to care so that his/her conscience is cleared by others' leanings toward suicide to artificially mesh with the dirty deed that was done. And that is patently clear from the overwhelming social media/PR response of this case IMO of course.

CuriousGeorgia said:

I am denying that the MAJORITY of the public has not easily accepted the SDSO ruling of suicide, and that the MAJORITY of people believe Rebecca was murdered. In over a year, there were only about 1500 signatures on the petition asking that her case be reopened. Hardly a majority of the public, IMO>

In reality, most people accepted the suicide ruling and went on with their lives.

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It's no stretch to assume that many people haven't signed a petition in support of reinvestigating RZ's death because they fear threats and intimidation from attorney's for JS and Dina. Both have been eager to use threats of legal action against anyone who has spoken out publicly about the crime. Given the opportunity, its likely they would do the same against people who sign the Zahau's petition.

I'll admit I haven't signed it for that reason.

IMO, that's a HUMONGOUS stretch!

Betty P said:

It's no stretch to assume that many people haven't signed a petition in support of reinvestigating RZ's death because they fear threats and intimidation from attorney's for JS and Dina. Both have been eager to use threats of legal action against anyone who has spoken out publicly about the crime. Given the opportunity, its likely they would do the same against people who sign the Zahau's petition.

I'll admit I haven't signed it for that reason.

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You have it nailed. With the threats, intimidations and social media responses, you couldn't be more right.

Well we all must be reading different things, because from what I've seen, many people believed that Rebecca committed suicide but had questions about Max's death from the beginning.

I agree with the SDSO investigation. I really do not appreciate being told I must be "someone with no sense" for believing Rebecca killed herself when that is the result of the SDSO investigation.

If there are any "threats, intimidations, and social media responses" it has been from those on the murder side...<modsnip>
JMO

Inparadise said:

You must not know anyone in Coronado or PV, because everyone that I have spoken to in those locations believe that Rebecca was brutally murdered.

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There are Monday morning quarterbacks in every city. Even if the case were re-opened and the conclusion stayed unchanged, some will still insist it was murder. Not all opinions are going to agree about any case. There are those who still believe Lee Harvey Oswald didn't act alone even though the case was reviewed and the conclusion was unchanged.

I'm assuming that all members of the various LE agencies and ME's office that handled RZ's investigation all live in the area. They have publicly expressed their professional opinion it was suicide. Unless there is new evidence presented, I don't believe their professional opinions will be changed.

JMO

Inparadise said:

You must not know anyone in Coronado or PV, because everyone that I have spoken to in those locations believe that Rebecca was brutally murdered.

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Yes you are correct and in PV it is the local joke. Sad but true.

I am in Coronado quite often, and those that I am in contact with had no problem accepting the SDSO's ruling in Rebecca's case. It is Max's case they have doubts about.

Frankly, I would be willing to accept the conclusion of any new, independent investigation. The problem I have with the SDSO investigation is the many flaws and inconsistencies. It was rushed and incomplete. Very little evidence was fully examined and a great deal was overlooked. Upon further analysis, many of the facts they claimed pointed to suicide have since been refuted.


Of course, a new investigation would face some difficult barriers, given the ruling of suicide allowed evidence to be returned and has since been destroyed (Spreckle's mansion remodeling). But there still remains a lot of areas where a new investigation team could glean additional information.

I'm not 100% convinced that Rebecca didn't commit suicide. But none of the evidence presented at this point makes me think that happened. I'm open to considering the possibility that she did if a new, high quality, impartial investigation is conducted by parties who have no connections or conflicts of interest with any of the parties involved in the original investigation and crime.

If the California Attorney General's office turns down the case after reviewing the files...will those of you that believe it was murder accept that it was suicide at that point?

K_Z said:

Gosh, maybe it's just me, but it seems that the topic of this thread has very effectively been deflected and derailed.

Hmmm. Wonder why someone would want to do THAT?

Maybe because the topic of this thread, which was Ann Rule's upcoming book release, may not be favorable to those who don't agree with Ann Rule's observations? AR has had interviews that indicate she believes Rebecca's death looks like a homicide. And AR has helped solve at least one case that was a homicide that was initially ruled a suicide. She has also successfully defended libel accusations for her opinions in her books.

Ann Rule's book will bring renewed interest and publicity to both Max's and Rebecca's deaths-- that is undisputed. After all, every single book she has ever written (30+) has made the NY Times bestseller list. So, using history as a predictor, there is a better than average chance that THIS book will also make the NYT list, right? And many of AR's books have sold into the MILLIONS of copies. That seems to be a substantial audience, right?

So, I'm detecting a "counter threat-ops" mission in full swing here. Argue, deflect, distract, deny, derail... change the subject at all costs.

Otherwise, why would anyone try so hard to derail a thread about a book release? Hmm?

1000+ page loads in 24 hours tells the story. IMO.

<...crickets...>

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I agree.

PLEASE LET US ALL BE CAUTIOUS IN HOW WE RESPOND. KEEP THIS FORUM ALIVE. DO NOT FALL INTO TRAPS THAT CLOSE DOWN THREADS, TIME OUT AND BAN POSTERS.

WE NEED TO TRY AND KEEP THE PUBLIC'S INTEREST ON THIS AS THIS CASE GETS A LOT OF HITS. WE SHOULD LISTEN TO THE MODERATORS ADVICE AND USE THE NECESSARY TOOLS TO AVOID ANY PITFALLS. LET'S STAY ON TOPIC, IGNORE BAIT AND BACK UP CLAIMS WITH MSM OR STATE IMO. THE TRUTH IS STRONGER THAN LIES AND WILL WIN OUT WITH DUE DILIGENCE. JMOO.

CuriousGeorgia said:

If the California Attorney General's office turns down the case after reviewing the files...will those of you that believe it was murder accept that it was suicide at that point?

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The AG turns down a lot of worthy cases in case you don't know. They don't want really to get involved in reopening cases and will avoid that if they can. It would not convince me that it's not a homicide.

CuriousGeorgia said:

If the California Attorney General's office turns down the case after reviewing the files...will those of you that believe it was murder accept that it was suicide at that point?

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If you are asking for anyone's opinion then I would like to respond to your question.

If the AG turns down the case it would have no bearing in my mind that that in itself was "proof" that Rebecca killed herself. Decisions are made behind closed doors for politically expedient reasons that are not made available to the public.

However, since sdso failed to prove with evidence that Rebecca killed herself I believe Bremner has the necessary impetus to ask for and win a judicial review. That would be the next logical step if the AG turns down the case, imo.

I believe that Bremner could meet the requirements of asking for a judicial review because imo there is much proof that the sdso was negligent in maintaining, preserving and handling the evidence here. Bremner also seems to have the patience and persistence for the long haul so I think she could handle this. Jmoo.

CuriousGeorgia said:

If the California Attorney General's office turns down the case after reviewing the files...will those of you that believe it was murder accept that it was suicide at that point?

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Of course not.

The SDSO investigation was terribly flawed. The flaws, mistakes and errors of omission are well documented in this forum and elsewhere.

Claiming the results of an obviously flawed investigation as the final word in both of these cases accomplishes nothing. One doesn't have to be an AG or LE expert to know these investigations were poorly done and many questions remain unanswered.

The only alternative, IMO, is a new, independent, expert investigation of the cases and evidence. It should not be a simple a review of the SDSO investigation, as Jonah requested. That's a completely different request, on that doesn't shed any new light on the crimes per se.

No conflicts of interest, all experts with full authority to review any evidence and interview any witnesses necessary to reach a conclusion.

OK, if the AG says the investigation was correct, and then Anne Bremner manages to get a Grand Jury to review the case, and THEY say the conclusion of suicide was correct...would you then believe it?

Bringing this over here, as it seems to fit the discussion.

One of the things about this case, and others (such as Dawna Natzke's case) is that there appears to be no procedure within law enforcement investigations for quality assurance. Within the medical profession, outside reviews of deaths occur regularly,and internal reviews of all sorts of mishaps occur daily. Sometimes insurance policies for hopsitals have a condition that outside reviews have to be accomplished in certain circumstances. Fires, for instance-- any hospital fire has to have a myriad of outside reviews, and inspection agencies reports. Airline mishaps have multiple outside agencies investigate what happened-- and not just crash situations. Outside review by impartial investigators in many industries is standard practice.

I have always been somewhat dumbfounded that law enforcement investigations do not have this process as part of their standard operating procedure, when there are significant questions about how a case investigation has unfolded. Take, for example, the George Zimmerman case-- if there had been a system to review the Sanford police department investigation, the situation may have unfolded quite differently than it did.

It seems to be, imo, institutionalized arrogance that says that if an investigation was done, the conclusions "must" be correct. Or we cherry pick "which" parts, or which investigations are correct, and which aren't, to suit our own opinions and objectives. That is a system construct that lends itself to bureaucracy and influence peddling at every level.

LE investigations are sacred cows that we as mere civilians can never question without significant push pack from entrenched bureaucracies. It is a grave threat and an insult to these institutions to suggest that they submit themselves for review of their work and investigations. That is partly why it is so difficult to petition these agencies for another review and investigation.

But it would take decades to effect changes and oversight, either through the statutory process, or at a national level. So it is what it is! Like our broken CPS systems-- this one is not an easy or quick fix. We have to find a way to work within the broken aspects of the system we have, not the one we wish we had!