George Zimmerman /Trayvon Martin General Discussion #7

Court testimony...going over GZ's LE application, Ride Along applications, stand your ground courses. Trying to get 4 reports in...

Montjoy said:

That's a terrible question, from a legal perspective. It's asking the witness to predict the future. It could have been asked about the very first punch being thrown, as who knows, it could have had a 1 in a billion chance of being life-threatening.

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But aren't "expert" witnesses allowed to speculate on an outcome given a hypothetical set of facts? I believe they are.

DIBSY said:

Very helpful link!! Thank you very much !!
He was an awfully skinny boy!! I weigh more than that!! :seeya:

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He wasn't skinny/ He was well within normal limits.
He was NOT a boy. He was 17.
mo

Nezumi said:

Not me. I've been a perfect angel all of my life. :floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

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I was a preachers kid and grand kid...

It helped me never go too far but I did stretch that boundary...

IT is only natural.. the teens is a stage where we act out and stretch our wings.. Start feeling more powerful..

OMO

Never before and I hope never again to see a judge allow this huge degree of witness baderging on the part of the defense. Maybe Florida's laws are far more lax than those in other states but this has gotten way out of hand. IMO The idea they badgered Rachel for days was insufferable IMO
So much repetition leading NO where should be outlawed. IMO Help your client, of course , but not by devious bullying methods. IMO

qwerty2013 said:

Well, she did die.

What if she had lived and gone on to lead a normal life, as Z does? Would you then say her injuries were serious?

The test of the pudding is in the tasting, etc....


:twocents: IMHO.

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I think the point of the story is that neither she nor George knew the extent of their injuries at the time they were sustaining them. She didn't know hers were as serious as they were, and George didn't know he wasn't about to die when getting beaten by Trayvon. jmo

gracielee said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horace Finklestein View Post
If he started a fight like TM did (imo) and was killed, I'd look in the mirror to see where I went wrong as a parent, I wouldn't blame the guy defending himself. But my kid wouldn't be out in the dark in the rain buying snacks for an unsupervised 12 year old while on a 10 day suspension from school. I'd be monitoring him like a hawk. Also, I'm not one who believes GZ was out to kill a "kid" that evening. I also wouldn't sue the HOA, but that's just me.





I agree with what Horace said. If I had a teenager that was on his third suspension from school, had been apprehended in the possession of stolen goods/jewelry, and a burglary tool, and had been sent to me by my former spouse because his behavior was in question, I would be monitoring said kid like a hawk. But then, I would have also done a lot of disciplining prior to this point. But by this time, my kid would have been on complete lockdown/restriction/grounded, not out roaming the streets after dark. JMO having raised three former teenagers, now married parents themselves.

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IMO - My point was that if your kid ended up dead (while he was unarmed and walking back from the 7-11) and the only person that states that your kid started the fight was the person that shot him...that scenario would cause you to blame yourself and not have any problems whatsoever with the person that shot your kid?

Lovelymountains said:

Yes, you are correct in that if that head injury had caused bleeding in the brain and subsequent death, it would have been serious, indeed, in my opinion. However, it did not. As for me, I take the word of a qualified medical doctor.

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No, but the next one might have, which is what MOM was trying to show when he got cut off.

DIBSY said:

Very helpful link!! Thank you very much !!
He was an awfully skinny boy!! I weigh more than that!! :seeya:

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I was more struck by how off the height and weights are in pretty much every article I see about TM. According to the autopsy report, he was approximately 5'11" and 158 lbs. But if you look at a lot of articles (I presume from before that info came out), people were saying he was upwards of 6'4". I just find it odd how things can get exaggerated.

Zimmerman Update Exclusive — Mid-Day 7 — Serino more ambivalent, Osterman supports self-defense

Posted by Andrew Branca
Tuesday, July 2, 2013 at 1:52pm
http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07...defense//#more


Motion to Strike Key Serino Testimony Most Damaging to State

The Court opened today with a request from Prosecutor Bernie de la Rionda, before the jury was present, to ask Judge Nelson to strike perhaps the most telling blow from yesterday’s testimony from former Investigator Chris Serino. You can see our analysis of that testimony from yesterday here:

Zimmerman Trial Day 6 – Analysis & Video – State’s witness Chris Serino seriously undermines charge
http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07...defense//#more

I say “former Investigator” because it turns out that although Chris Serino remains with the Sanford Police Department he was demoted from Investigatory to Partrolman a few months after the shooting for the apparent reason that he was willing to support a charge of manslaughter but not second degree murder: see here for details:

Zimmerman Update — Investigator Chris Serino Demoted to Patrolman by Superiors
http://lawofselfdefense.com/zimmerma...-by-superiors/

Christopher Serino, cop who said George Zimmerman should be charged, is transferred from investigative unit
(CBS) SANFORD, Fla.
http://lawofselfdefense.com/wp-conte...-CBS-News1.pdf

BDLR argued that when O’Mara asked Serino if he believed Zimmerman to be telling the truth, Serino responded that he did, that such a testament of a law enforcement officer of a defendant was inappropriate and must be struck. He “ambushed” the defense with a detailed motion the State’s office had presumably spent much of the night preparing, and Judge Nelson required the defense to evaluate and respond to the motion while standing in court. O’Mara did the best he could under the circumstances, but Nelson elected to side with the State. When the jury was brought into the courtroom she played the audio of that part of O’Mara’s cross, and instructed the jury that the evidence was struck and not to be considered by them.

Frankly, it seems to this observer is that all that was accomplished by this maneuver is that after hearing the statement as the last thing before being sequestered for the night and having a chance to sleep on it, the jury heard it again first thing in the morning to set the tone for the day ahead. It struck me as an odd maneuver, and odd timing of the maneuver, by the State (but then so much of the State’s case has).

Former Investigator (now Patrolman) Chris Serino, Sanford Police Department


On the stand today Serino seemed notably more ambivalent in his testimony in the sense that he appeared to be making an effort to provide both the State and the defense with information useful to them in answering their questions. He was agreeable with BDLR’s suggestions that the use of phrases like “f@cking punks” and “those @ssholes” suggested ill-will, hatred, spite, the conditions for a “depraved mind.” On the other hand, when questioned by O’Mara he was asked if Zimmerman had barked out the words as BDLR had done on direct, and Serino replied he had not. When asked his perception of when he heard Zimmerman speak the words Serino replied they seemed to convey a sense of frustration.

In the end, Serino’s testimony today was ambivalent between the State and defense, as opposed to strongly in favor of the defense yesterday. Nevertheless, ambivalent testimony from a State witness is a clear win for the defense, given the State’s need to meet its burden of persuasion beyond a reasonable doubt.

Mark Osterman, Federal Air Marshall, State Witness & Zimmerman “Best-Friend”

After Serino the next State witness was Mark Osterman, a Federal Air Marshall, and self-described best friend of George Zimmerman. Osterman had written a book recounting his knowledge of the events, much of it based on his personal conversations with George in the days immediately following the shooting.

Hearing Osterman testify was extremely surreal. It was almost like having Zimmerman himself on the stand, except without the opportunity for the State to cross-examine the actual defendant. Osterman’s testimony was 100% consistent with Zimmerman’s own recounting.

The only portion that might arguably have favored the State’s position is that Osterman recounted in his book that Zimmerman had told him he had moved Martin’s “hands” away from his body. Martin’s hands were photographed under his body in photos taken on the scene, and BDLR may feel he’s (finally) identified an inconsistency in Zimmerman’s recounting. In fact, it is my recollection that Zimmerman’s statement was that he moved Martin’s “arms” away from his body. He could well have put his hands on Martin’s elbows and pushed them away from Martin’s body, thus moving his “arms” away but not his hands.

If that WAS BLDR’s goal, he spent a great deal of time getting there, all the while replaying Zimmerman’s narrative of self-defense. It simply didn’t strike me as any way for the State to advance substantive closer to their goal of proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

OK, court is back in session. More to follow in the end-of-day wrap-up.

–Andrew

Wow so GZ wanted to be a cop. Therefore he was definitely out to murder TM?

Hmm will we get to see TM's academic performance as well? This is beyond absurd.

Wolfpack Fan said:

That doctor just contradicted most of the state's witnesses. Many of them saw swinging, or flailing, of the hands. John Good testified that Trayvon kept swinging his arm forward toward Zimmerman. He DID say that he couldn't see well enough to see if the punches hit George. This woman is acting like Trayvon only swung a few times. If head injuries aren't important, why is Roger Goodell making such a big deal about all the hits to the head in the NFL?

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I view that as a struggle, if GZ was defending himself from TM's blows, then TM didn't have a lot of contact with GZ face because GZ was trying to stop the punches. I also think that TM saw the gun and they were both struggling over it, thus the flailing of hands, not just TM's hands but GZ's hands, too. :twocents:

Just another heads up! Let's make sure we are marking our posts with JMO, IMO, Or MOO..

Lets make it easy on the mods.. We are doing good so far.

Don't get upset.. if you feel upset take a breath and walk away!!

We can do it!!!!! OMO

Looks like all 4 reports are coming in. GZ knowing interview and investigating techniques. Knew about SYG law but denied it during Hannity.

missmazzy said:

My husband was in a car accident in 1980 and put his head through the sunroof. He was in a coma for 10 days and still has cognitive difficulties. However, at the time of the crash, all he had was an injury to his forehead. The damage was internal and couldn't be judged by just looking at him.

If GZ was hit over and over, without defending himself, he could have been irreparably brain damaged. IMO, he was right to stop the attack when he did (and no, I am not advocating murder so don't suggest it).

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I am so sorry that happened to your husband missmazy and I hope he continues to improve. I was a young and new nurse at the time and I was just incredulous at those beautiful young men, both older than me at approx 30 years old, and looking so relatively unscathed. It was then that I realized the frailty of the human body. It was really unnerving and left an indelible impression. BTW, both were in separate incidents and happened about a week apart. Sorry this may seem off topic, but I think it relates in that some injuries are not always obvious and that something that seems so minor can have devastating consequences (referring to the fist-to-head incident). MOO.

CHERIE.T said:

He wasn't skinny/ He was well within normal limits.
He was NOT a boy. He was 17.
mo

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IIRC, TM was 5'11, 158 lbs..

barrysgirl said:

Really? every witness I have heard specifically said GZ was on the bottom (the one in red). Which witnesses said he was on top that saw the fight? thanks

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There were indeed two witnesses that were neighbors who said on live TV they saw George on top of Trayvon.

JeannaT said:

I don't believe so. His doctor referred him to an ENT for further treatment, but GZ didn't follow up. Something about the cost was more than he wanted to pay for further exams.

IMHO.

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JeannaT, thank you.

CHERIE.T said:

He wasn't skinny/ He was well within normal limits.
He was NOT a boy. He was 17.
mo

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To me, 17 is a boy. He's certainly not a man. And he was barely 17 at that - I believe he was killed just about a month after his birthday.

JeannaT said:

It seems impossible he was 6'3" and 140. I've seen his facebook page, and while he is lean, he's not THAT lean. That's just bony.

IMHO.

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No, based on his photos he wasn't skinny. Just lean. So either he wasn't 6'3" or he didn't weigh 140. Or maybe both details in the article are wrong. Or maybe all of them are. all jmo