The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992 - #5

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Missouri Mule said:
Well we know that Cox and Garrison are in the slammer for sure. Carnahan has been mentioned but I don't know that he is a genuine suspect although frequently mentioned. Garrison is in for life and only eligible for parole when he is 109 years sold. Cox could be paroled in 2025 and many people believe he knows where the bodies/remains are buried, but not necessarily involved. I doubt that Garrison really knows anything. I wouldn't put anything past Carnahan if he is involved.

We don't know who the GJ3 were although there are suspicions. Among those individuals (two who are are potentially on the street), may be the person who was one of the perps.

What I have labored to find out is what the motive was. Therein lies the key. Some believe that only a confession will solve this case. I am coming around to that view myself.
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Was Carnahan ever mentioned as a possible suspect or even mentioned at all in regards to this case by SPD and/or any of the newspapers? The reason I ask is because I think I've only seen him mentioned in regards to this case on message boards. TIA.
 
Indianagirl said:
Was Carnahan ever mentioned as a possible suspect or even mentioned at all in regards to this case by SPD and/or any of the newspapers? The reason I ask is because I think I've only seen him mentioned in regards to this case on message boards. TIA.
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Somewhere he was mentioned in a summary of the case as I had read it recently. On other sites he has been prominently mentioned. I would agree with the essence of your post in that I used to see him frequently in our office where he was visiting relatives. I have often said that had there been any connection I surely would have heard about it. Just about everyone in the Ozarks knew he had murdered Jackie Johns but they never could pin the rap on him. And when the women went missing just about everyone wanted to pin this crime on him as well. In summary, it is not impossible that he is involved.

Supposedly one of the perps, and the number exceeds 1, is in the slammer. I wish I knew all the names of the GJ3 because I would like to look at their history. There is also another name in the Rogersville area that comes up frequently who allegedly fit the description of the mystery van driver in the neighborhood prior to the abductions. And the story that has filtered down to me is that a particular group in this area was essentially a murder for hire group and prolific fencing operation all rolled into one.

The great mystery to me is the motive. Someone had to be trusted enough for either Sherrill or Suzie to have opened that front door. On that account there are some obvious names that come to mind.
 
Mo Mule do u think any of the girls friends have knowledge of what happened and maybe were afraid to talk and may still be afraid?
 
Hippy Chick said:
Mo Mule do u think any of the girls friends have knowledge of what happened and maybe were afraid to talk and may still be afraid?
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This has been widely speculated and while I doubt if any of them were involved they could certainly have knowledge of suspects. I tend to doubt they are afraid to give up such this information at this late date. I would be more interested in who else might have been hanging around that night that they might have noticed.

My sense is that the police do know who did this crime but do not have the evidence to bring charges. A compelling case has been made that the only thing that might bring closure to this case is an actual confession.

Someone known to Sherrill or Suzie had to have had their confidence to have allowed entry into the house or to have opened the door. It is possible that the friends might have an insight who that might be. I would be surprised if one or more of them didn't have a good idea who that might be. I have some thoughts but no actual evidence to back up those suspicions. I am given to understand the case is quite voluminous. In my opinion this case is by no means inactive.

I am coming more around to the view that this is indirectly connected to the grave robbing incidents. We don't really know how high up the food chain that led.

Sometime ago a poster suggested a scenario regarding a "deviant" involved. I also think
that is an area worth exploring. The grave robbing incidents and the "deviant" aren't necessarily mutually exclusive since we have been told the consensus is that this was a "sexual assault" case. Stated differently, what may have began as a clumsy attempt to prevent Suzie from testifying spiraled out of control and led to their demise.
 
Thank you to everyone for posting so many interesting theories about this mystery.
It's been fascinating to read about your individual personal experiences regarding h/s graduation and parties. Those personal experiences have helped to create many possible scenarios and I know it's helped me to think outside the box and develop even more theories.

I want to throw a few things out here and see what you all think...

News articles have mentioned that Suzy and Sherrill had a very close mother-daughter relationship and were very good friends.

So... Suzy and Stacy show up at Suzy's house around 2:30ish. Sherrill isn't expecting them and she's in bed. Suzy and Stacy go to Suzy's room. Suzy sets her purse down and Stacy sets her purse next to Suzy's. This could be possible because as a guest, Stacy might 'copy' Suzy... Stacy hadn't spent time there and would do what Suzy did.

So... now the girls are home (and both purses are on Suzy's stairs). Sherrill hears them come in (possibly peaking out the shades when she hears their cars pull up to the house). Sherrill gets out of bed, grabs her purse (many women smokers keep their cigs in their purse), lights a cig, and heads to Suzy's room to chat with her daughter and friend. (Bart and others have said that Sherrill was a heavy smoker and it was the first thing she would do when she woke up- Having been a heavy
smoker myself, I can attest to the fact that you do grab a cig almost without even thinking about it)

Going into Suzy's room- to say hi and see what's going on- she sets her purse next to the other two (probably not thinking much about it), smokes her cig and chats with the girls. Maybe asking how their night was, hearing funny party stories, etc. From my personal experiences, two girls coming in from graduation night and parties ARE NOT going to come in, get ready for bed, and jump in bed to go to sleep. They're going to talk about the night, boys, or whatever. They might grab some munchies and a soda. Maybe they're not going to be ready to call it a day, yet. At least that's how my friends and I were- we'd go a hundred miles an hour... even if we had plans in the morning, we'd still keep going and going and going... just having fun and laughing and stuff.

I've had several thoughts about the purses- and again this is from a personal perspective, but if I were one of the many people who entered the empty house, I wouldn't grab the purses and stack them all together on the stairs to Suzy's room. IF (and that's a big IF) I were to move the purses, then more than likely it would be to a table or someplace like that where I could search them all together... but again, I don't see this being something someone would do (I wouldn't be comfortable doing it)- at least not early on.

I can see the McCalls grabbing their daughters purse (and whatever else of hers was there) and moving her belongings around. A lot of concerned parents would do that. But I still can't see where the McCalls would be comfortable rifling around through Suzy and Sherrill's purses... I think they would notice the other purses- becoming more alarmed as more time went by- but I still can't find at what point someone would start moving the purses around.

I'm leaning towards the theory that the missing women themselves left the purses on the stairs...

A few other things that make me wonder....

Only Sherrill and Suzy live in the house and they've only lived there a few months. Nobody would know what-if anything- was missing from the house. An example would be shorts/sweats/sleep pants for Stacy. Mrs. McCall, being very upset, would think that Stacy was only in her shirt/panties because Stacy's shorts were there, but no one would have any idea if Stacy was wearing something else.

Other items could be gone, but no one would know because no one else lived there.

One more thing- and then I'll stop :)

We can't even be sure that Sherrill was in bed- the time of night and the fact the the bed looked slept in leads us to believe that she got out of bed for some reason that night. But, not everyone makes their bed every day. I'm embarrassed to admit, but as an adult, I have very rarely made my bed, in fact the only reason it gets made now is because my husband does it every morning :)

So Sherrill could have been in the living room watching tv or whatever when the girls came home... and Sherrill's parted bedroom shades could have just been shades that were 'stuck' that way...

Thank you for reading my ramble! I read A LOT more than I post and I have learned so much from so many of you great sleuthers!
 
Auramyst said:
I apologize, I meant to say: *Suzy's* parted bedroom shades.
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I don't believe an apology is necessary. That is a common misconception. I have thought the same thing myself.

I've not been to the house but I believe that the window and blinds from Susie's room faced toward the carport where Sherrill's car was parked. I hope to get some photos from Springfield before long that will provide a better idea of the floor plan of the home. Her bedroom was a converted one car garage.
 
Missouri Mule said:
I don't believe an apology is necessary. That is a common misconception. I have thought the same thing myself.

I've not been to the house but I believe that the window and blinds from Susie's room faced toward the carport where Sherrill's car was parked. I hope to get some photos from Springfield before long that will provide a better idea of the floor plan of the home. Her bedroom was a converted one car garage.
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What a coincidence! I was trying to find a floor plan of the home when I got sidetracked catching up on all the new posts in this thread. :)

The only floor plan I've found so far is what is posted in the 'media sticky' of this forum...

Images only NO DISCUSSION - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Suspicious Minds did some great work and posted some photos and even drew up a floor plan of the house... This has helped me a lot with trying to get my bearings and trying to understand who might have been where...

Also, does anyone know if this house had a basement? I know they can be fairly common in MO.

And where was Sherrill refinishing the piece of furniture? Inside? Outside? Has anyone seen any info on this?

Thank you Suspicious Minds for the floor plan and the pics... and thank you Missouri Mule for your kind words about my mistake :)
 
I'm reasonably certain this house would only have had a crawl space. They are common in the Springfield area. I owned eight houses in Springfield and they all had crawl spaces.
 
I've followed this case for a long time as the number of posts I have made should make evident. I have made some wrong turns and just been flat wrong at times. Having said this I thought I would pass along some suggestions for newcomers to this thread. I'm not trying to toot my own horn but to save time plowing old ground for those who don't want to spend weeks rereading old posts.

I believe that post #562 in this thread would be a good post to review and I would also refer to post #20 in thread #1. I believe both posters have a very solid grasp of the facts.

Having said this, I don't necessarily agree that the perp(s) entered the home but I don't disagree either.

I do believe this was a "sexual assault" case, but not the underlying motive.

I do believe someone known by Sherrill or Suzie (most likely Sherrill) was the method of gaining entry.

The underlying motive is not clear.
 
Missouri Mule said:
Having said this, I don't necessarily agree that the perp(s) entered the home but I don't disagree either. .
For years I believed that the perp never entered the house. I thought that there was some ruse (ie gas leak) that was used to get them out of the house. I could imagine this quick, furious pounding at the door, and three sleepy women startled out of sleep and answering the door... to have the perp standing there rushing them out of the house to avoid a 'gas explosion' or some other dire situation.

Lately, though, I've been considering other scenarios- a quick in-out type thing where maybe the perp came in through an unlocked door startling them all... or maybe the perp was friends with one of them and was let into the house.

If I had to choose right now, I would go with 'the perp never entering the house', but I could definitely see how someone could have gained entrance and gotten out leaving very little (if any) evidence.
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Missouri Mule said:
I'm reasonably certain this house would only have had a crawl space. They are common in the Springfield area. I owned eight houses in Springfield and they all had crawl spaces.
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Thank you.

I spent 23 years in Iowa and Illinois. My experience was that the majority of houses had basements. I didn't realize that wasn't the case with Missouri. Thank you for clearing that up for me.
 
Auramyst said:
Missouri Mule said:
Having said this, I don't necessarily agree that the perp(s) entered the home but I don't disagree either. .
For years I believed that the perp never entered the house. I thought that there was some ruse (ie gas leak) that was used to get them out of the house. I could imagine this quick, furious pounding at the door, and three sleepy women startled out of sleep and answering the door... to have the perp standing there rushing them out of the house to avoid a 'gas explosion' or some other dire situation.

Lately, though, I've been considering other scenarios- a quick in-out type thing where maybe the perp came in through an unlocked door startling them all... or maybe the perp was friends with one of them and was let into the house.

If I had to choose right now, I would go with 'the perp never entering the house', but I could definitely see how someone could have gained entrance and gotten out leaving very little (if any) evidence.
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I think the highlighted portion of your post is the more likely scenario. If not actually "in" the house, was at least known by Sherrill or Suzie. The "who" is the great mystery. I don't know this for a fact, but I have reason to believe it might be one of the GJ3 subjects. Unfortunately we don't know their names although we can guess which isn't worth much.
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Auramyst said:
Thank you.

I spent 23 years in Iowa and Illinois. My experience was that the majority of houses had basements. I didn't realize that wasn't the case with Missouri. Thank you for clearing that up for me.
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This is the actual statistics and information about the home from the official tax records as shown on the Trulia RE database.

Official property, sales, and tax information from county (public) records as of 07/2011:

Single Family Residential
2 Bedrooms
1 Bathroom
1,498 sqft
Lot Size: 0.21 acres
Built In 1953
Stories: 1 story
Parking
Parking Spaces: 1
4 Rooms
Foundation: Crawl/Raised
Subdivision: GARRETT PLACE
County: Greene
Tax Rate Code Area: SPRINGFIELD/R12

"This is a Single-Family Home located at 1717 East Delmar Street, Springfield MO. 1717 E Delmar St has 2 beds, 1 bath, and approximately 1,498 square feet. The property was built in 1953. The average list price for similar homes for sale is $151,433. 1717 E Delmar St is in the 65804 ZIP code in Springfield, MO. The average list price for ZIP code 65804 is $182,641."

http://www.trulia.com/homes/Missouri/Springfield/sold/484345-1717-E-Delmar-St-Springfield-MO-65804
 
Found a few more links which may fill in some curious details too.

This has a touch more history data to the home. Also, there's a bird's eye view of the property.

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1717-E-Delmar-St-Springfield-MO-65804/50239821_zpid/

Less info here, but closer skyview.

http://www.homes.com/Home-Prices/ID-600023135392/1717-E-DELMAR-ST/

There does appear a fence around the backyard, guessing the same in 1992 ? I'm sure Greene county records would detail this and there has to be survey reports of when Sherrill bought the home, if a fence existed then.
 
Not to steer the conversation too far off the path, but 60 Minutes had a good story Sunday night regarding criminal trials. Aside from DNA evidence which vindicated the accused, after being in prison for over twenty years, he was also the apparent victim of evidence suppression by the State. It does raise the point of what is KNOWN and unknown. Sometimes all the cards aren't laid on the table even at trial.

Not one of my favorite reporters of the 'new 60 Minutes' (too much drama in her news reads), but an interesting story none the less.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_1...f-michael-morton/?tag=contentMain;cbsCarousel
 
Auramyst said:
Thank you to everyone for posting so many interesting theories about this mystery.
It's been fascinating to read about your individual personal experiences regarding h/s graduation and parties. Those personal experiences have helped to create many possible scenarios and I know it's helped me to think outside the box and develop even more theories.

I want to throw a few things out here and see what you all think...

News articles have mentioned that Suzy and Sherrill had a very close mother-daughter relationship and were very good friends.

So... Suzy and Stacy show up at Suzy's house around 2:30ish. Sherrill isn't expecting them and she's in bed. Suzy and Stacy go to Suzy's room. Suzy sets her purse down and Stacy sets her purse next to Suzy's. This could be possible because as a guest, Stacy might 'copy' Suzy... Stacy hadn't spent time there and would do what Suzy did.

So... now the girls are home (and both purses are on Suzy's stairs). Sherrill hears them come in (possibly peaking out the shades when she hears their cars pull up to the house). Sherrill gets out of bed, grabs her purse (many women smokers keep their cigs in their purse), lights a cig, and heads to Suzy's room to chat with her daughter and friend. (Bart and others have said that Sherrill was a heavy smoker and it was the first thing she would do when she woke up- Having been a heavy
smoker myself, I can attest to the fact that you do grab a cig almost without even thinking about it)

Going into Suzy's room- to say hi and see what's going on- she sets her purse next to the other two (probably not thinking much about it), smokes her cig and chats with the girls. Maybe asking how their night was, hearing funny party stories, etc. From my personal experiences, two girls coming in from graduation night and parties ARE NOT going to come in, get ready for bed, and jump in bed to go to sleep. They're going to talk about the night, boys, or whatever. They might grab some munchies and a soda. Maybe they're not going to be ready to call it a day, yet. At least that's how my friends and I were- we'd go a hundred miles an hour... even if we had plans in the morning, we'd still keep going and going and going... just having fun and laughing and stuff.

I've had several thoughts about the purses- and again this is from a personal perspective, but if I were one of the many people who entered the empty house, I wouldn't grab the purses and stack them all together on the stairs to Suzy's room. IF (and that's a big IF) I were to move the purses, then more than likely it would be to a table or someplace like that where I could search them all together... but again, I don't see this being something someone would do (I wouldn't be comfortable doing it)- at least not early on.

I can see the McCalls grabbing their daughters purse (and whatever else of hers was there) and moving her belongings around. A lot of concerned parents would do that. But I still can't see where the McCalls would be comfortable rifling around through Suzy and Sherrill's purses... I think they would notice the other purses- becoming more alarmed as more time went by- but I still can't find at what point someone would start moving the purses around.

I'm leaning towards the theory that the missing women themselves left the purses on the stairs...

A few other things that make me wonder....

Only Sherrill and Suzy live in the house and they've only lived there a few months. Nobody would know what-if anything- was missing from the house. An example would be shorts/sweats/sleep pants for Stacy. Mrs. McCall, being very upset, would think that Stacy was only in her shirt/panties because Stacy's shorts were there, but no one would have any idea if Stacy was wearing something else.

Other items could be gone, but no one would know because no one else lived there.

One more thing- and then I'll stop :)

We can't even be sure that Sherrill was in bed- the time of night and the fact the the bed looked slept in leads us to believe that she got out of bed for some reason that night. But, not everyone makes their bed every day. I'm embarrassed to admit, but as an adult, I have very rarely made my bed, in fact the only reason it gets made now is because my husband does it every morning :)

So Sherrill could have been in the living room watching tv or whatever when the girls came home... and Sherrill's parted bedroom shades could have just been shades that were 'stuck' that way...

Thank you for reading my ramble! I read A LOT more than I post and I have learned so much from so many of you great sleuthers!
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I feel the same way about the purses, Aura :) I have never thought that there was anything awry regarding the purses.

I didn't start making my bed everyday until about 2 years ago :) lol

This is a side note (I am not sure if you have read about this part or not), but I have recently thought that the odd and inconsistent behavior of JK and her boyfriend had more to do with MAYBE smoking pot or doing some other kind of illegal drug before arriving at Stacy's home that morning. This is just speculation and I have no evidence to prove or disprove this theory BUT it could explain why they couldn't seem to remember some things the right way.
 
I wanted to add this about the purses. I've often thought about the "Georges Restaurant" sighting story, and wondered if it actually "Was" true, and that may be Suzie & Stacy stopped by 1717 Delmar (Suzies House) and Sherrill had may be woken up, or was already up, and that they all went to Georges to get something to eat, and either left and came home after eating....or.....left after having some trouble with some guys there and ended up not eating. Basically went there, had a problem with some guys, and left before eating.....and may be were followed home from Georges by the perps. The girls came back into the house and all set their purses down in the same place at the same time. Just a thought. I know the Georges Restaurant sighting was never fully proven, beyond the waitresses account, but it seems like a plausable scenerio.
 
CaliMama said:
I feel the same way about the purses, Aura :) I have never thought that there was anything awry regarding the purses.

I didn't start making my bed everyday until about 2 years ago :) lol

This is a side note (I am not sure if you have read about this part or not), but I have recently thought that the odd and inconsistent behavior of JK and her boyfriend had more to do with MAYBE smoking pot or doing some other kind of illegal drug before arriving at Stacy's home that morning. This is just speculation and I have no evidence to prove or disprove this theory BUT it could explain why they couldn't seem to remember some things the right way.
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I agree that they may have done some "illicit activity" that morning before arriving at the house... after all, they THOUGHT they were going to spend a day of fun in the sun .... but instead they got to deal with a very baffling and sad situation :(
 
monkeymann said:
I wanted to add this about the purses. I've often thought about the "Georges Restaurant" sighting story, and wondered if it actually "Was" true, and that may be Suzie & Stacy stopped by 1717 Delmar (Suzies House) and Sherrill had may be woken up, or was already up, and that they all went to Georges to get something to eat, and either left and came home after eating....or.....left after having some trouble with some guys there and ended up not eating. Basically went there, had a problem with some guys, and left before eating.....and may be were followed home from Georges by the perps. The girls came back into the house and all set their purses down in the same place at the same time. Just a thought. I know the Georges Restaurant sighting was never fully proven, beyond the waitresses account, but it seems like a plausable scenerio.
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Georges Restaurant is such and interesting twist to this story... I think about that often and, like you, I wondered the same thing... I know that there have been LOTS of times that I've been out for the evening with friends and then we all ended up having a late night (or early morning :) ) meal at a 24 hr restaurant or someplace like that.

It makes sense to me that Sherrill might have gotten up when the girls got home... chatted with them for a few minutes and then they all decided to leave to grab a bite to eat at Georges.... How sad if a chance encounter at a restaurant was the beginning of the end for the three of them :(
 
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