Discussion of the New Lead in the Search for Stacy Peterson

Most chemical reactions generate heat, but many need applied heat to set them off. I'm not sure I'd call something at the level of body heat "warm," but I can't remember whether the day in question was warm or not. Since many chemicals (including the infamous sodium hydroxide) are shipped in plastic, and you wouldn't want the plastic to melt in an accident and make things way, way worse, I would say the plastic would not dissolve. (unless a solvent like gasoline was involved, and that's a big maybe) The one acid I think we could rule out is sulfuric (or hydrofluoric, either) because the reaction might be too intense for plastic. Also, I don't think DP would be smart enough (IMO) to safely use hydrofluoric acid, plus, it's way hard to obtain at high strength.
A lot of labs use plasticware when appropriate nowadays, since it's hard to break and much, much cheaper.

I just reread your post, Leila. Maybe if she had been unconscious, or there were fluids involved (blood, urine voided at death), the barrel might seem warm, as the fluid would transfer the body heat onto the barrel faster.
Blech! I can't believe I just said that.

Peculiar Petunia said:

Most chemical reactions generate heat, but many need applied heat to set them off. I'm not sure I'd call something at the level of body heat "warm," but I can't remember whether the day in question was warm or not. Since many chemicals (including the infamous sodium hydroxide) are shipped in plastic, and you wouldn't want the plastic to melt in an accident and make things way, way worse, I would say the plastic would not dissolve. (unless a solvent like gasoline was involved, and that's a big maybe) The one acid I think we could rule out is sulfuric (or hydrofluoric, either) because the reaction might be too intense for plastic. Also, I don't think DP would be smart enough (IMO) to safely use hydrofluoric acid, plus, it's way hard to obtain at high strength.
A lot of labs use plasticware when appropriate nowadays, since it's hard to break and much, much cheaper.

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BBM......a body is nearly 100 degrees and cools very slowly. If recently deceased, the body wold be retaining the heat, especially if concealed in a closed container. Imagine how hot you would quickly get inside a closed barrel and you can imagine how the barrel may feel warm. You would actually create condensation inside the barrel because your body is warmer than the air temperature in the room. He didn't say the barrel was hot, just warm. I take that to mean a little warmer than you would expect if to touched a barrel in ambient temperature without a heat source (body at 98 degrees) inside.

It just isn't practical to add the weight of enough chemical to submerge the body inside the house. Not only would it make it more difficult to carry ( two people probably couldn't carry a barrel with a body and perhaps 20 or 30 gallons of liquid. Plus TM would have identified the barrel as having a liquid inside). Additionally, the fumes would be intense and if dropped or spilled, it would create a huge mess. Even a small spill would be easily detected by police investigators.

Chemical reactions causing dissolving typically cause expansion of the air inside a container so, again, the fumes couldn't have been contained.

Please, stop with the assumptions that the barrel was warm when TM moved it because the chemicals were inside the barrel.

any one do a drive by lately?
anything in local news?
is area still guarded?
Tents still up?
TIA

I did a drive by yesterday at the Bolingbrook airport and nothing unusual there at all.. But the weather has been terrible....a day or two of sunshine and then more rain. Today in our area is supposed to be cloudy with possible rain and high of 82 but Central IL (where Peoria is) is supposed to have t-showers today. We will get them tonight. Then our area is supposed to have rain for Monday and Tuesday, nice for Wed and part of Thursday and then more rain....

So if Peoria is getting it too then the area is just saturated and the creek is probably overflowing.....

Just to let you know

closeobserver said:

BBM......a body is nearly 100 degrees and cools very slowly. If recently deceased, the body wold be retaining the heat, especially if concealed in a closed container. Imagine how hot you would quickly get inside a closed barrel and you can imagine how the barrel may feel warm. You would actually create condensation inside the barrel because your body is warmer than the air temperature in the room. He didn't say the barrel was hot, just warm. I take that to mean a little warmer than you would expect if to touched a barrel in ambient temperature without a heat source (body at 98 degrees) inside.

It just isn't practical to add the weight of enough chemical to submerge the body inside the house. Not only would it make it more difficult to carry ( two people probably couldn't carry a barrel with a body and perhaps 20 or 30 gallons of liquid. Plus TM would have identified the barrel as having a liquid inside). Additionally, the fumes would be intense and if dropped or spilled, it would create a huge mess. Even a small spill would be easily detected by police investigators.

Chemical reactions causing dissolving typically cause expansion of the air inside a container so, again, the fumes couldn't have been contained.

Please, stop with the assumptions that the barrel was warm when TM moved it because the chemicals were inside the barrel.

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Tom Morphey's description of the barrel or container being "warm to the touch" might also be attributed to Tom being frightened and his imagination. Tom has admitted to being scared of DP and in the days leading up to Stacy's disappearance, DP had been trying to coerce Tom into renting a storage unit, putting it in Tom's name, and letting DP use it. He had complained to Tom that Stacy had become a liability and had dropped a lot of hints about killing her.

After helping DP load the container into DP's Denali, DP drove Tom home. When he got home, Tom immediately called his neighbor and friend, Walter Martineck, and asked if he could come right over as he needed to talk. Walter said that when Tom arrived at his house, Tom was very upset and told him what happened that evening, and how Tom thought DP had killed Stacy and how Tom thought he had probably just helped DP move Stacy's body.

The next day, Tom tried to commit suicide. After DP returned from his 3-day head-clearing trip, he visited Tom in the hospital (according to neighbor, Sharon Bychowski), and I have no doubt that DP may have threatened Tom at that time. After spending a few days in the hospital, Tom disappeared and subsequently we've learned that Tom was in some sort of protective custody. He was in some sort of rehab facility.

I think Tom Morphey was so frightened of DP that when he was helping DP move that container, and remembering the conversations with DP in the days previous in which DP had hinted about killing Stacy, that he he was certain that Stacy's body was in that container. I think it's very possible that in Tom's imagination that the container was perhaps warmer to the touch than it may have been.

wasalurker said:

I did a drive by yesterday at the Bolingbrook airport and nothing unusual there at all.. But the weather has been terrible....a day or two of sunshine and then more rain. Today in our area is supposed to be cloudy with possible rain and high of 82 but Central IL (where Peoria is) is supposed to have t-showers today. We will get them tonight. Then our area is supposed to have rain for Monday and Tuesday, nice for Wed and part of Thursday and then more rain....

So if Peoria is getting it too then the area is just saturated and the creek is probably overflowing.....

Just to let you know

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It doesn't sound like weather is cooperating. LE is going to need a week to 10 days of dry weather for the search site to dry out enough to do further searching.

I think the delay in the search has probably been a combination of weather and getting the specialized equipment and a team to operate it lined up.

Does anyone know what the usual weather pattern is? I'm originally from upstate NY, and I remember spring rains, but by July we had long stretches of dry weather between summer thunderstorms.

I agree Leila, plus how would that barrel get in the bedroom to begin with if it was already heavy? Can't imagine what reason DP would even give for it being there in the first place.

BTW I am from next door in Iowa--it has rained for a solid week basically and Illinois usually gets our weather a couple days after so---things not very conducive to the search right now.

No theories but a comment. I'm thinking whomever is operating the imaging equipment wont allow the machine near moisture because of the sensitivities of the electronics involved. So they are probably awaiting clear forecast.

AND along with.

I'm still curious about the dog hits, possum bones don't cut it for an explanation. If a cadaver dog hit on possum remains, it's time for a different cadaver dog to search. No telling how this particular dog was trained so I think different cadaver dogs should be used also. Most of us know there's different types of trained cadaver dogs and none of them should hit on possum. IMO

doobiedoo52 said:

I agree Leila, plus how would that barrel get in the bedroom to begin with if it was already heavy? Can't imagine what reason DP would even give for it being there in the first place.

BTW I am from next door in Iowa--it has rained for a solid week basically and Illinois usually gets our weather a couple days after so---things not very conducive to the search right now.

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If memory serves me right, Tom Morphey described what he moved as a rectangular container, as opposed to a barrel. I think it's often been referred to as a barrel because the barrel of pool chemicals that was in the Peterson garage went missing at the same time. Again, I think Tom Morphey was overcome with fright that night that he helped DP, and in his fright he may not have recalled details exactly. It could be a large rectangular Rubbermaid type of container or a blue barrel.

Let's hope the rain stops for a while and there's a long stretch of dry weather.

Peliman said:

No theories but a comment. I'm thinking whomever is operating the imaging equipment wont allow the machine near moisture because of the sensitivities of the electronics involved. So they are probably awaiting clear forecast.

AND along with.

I'm still curious about the dog hits, possum bones don't cut it for an explanation. If a cadaver dog hit on possum remains, it's time for a different cadaver dog to search. No telling how this particular dog was trained so I think different cadaver dogs should be used also. Most of us know there's different types of trained cadaver dogs and none of them should hit on possum. IMO

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I agree. Dogs trained in cadaver search wouldn't hit on possum bones. Since LE is looking for human remains, I'd think that if they're going to bring dogs in for the search, they'd bring dogs that are specifically trained cadaver dogs.

In the case of Caylee Anthony, LE had a cadaver dog brought into the backyard of the Anthony home and that dog hit on three different locations. To double check their findings, they brought in a second cadaver dog and didn't tell the handler where the first dog made hits. The second dog hit on the same exact spots as the first dog.

I would think that in this case, it would be a good idea to bring in a second cadaver dog and see if it makes hits in the same locations as the first dog.

I drove by the farm on Friday and LE was not guarding the entrance/gate area like they were the previous Saturday.

There hasn't been anything regarding the case on the local news.

It's Not the Nanny said:

I drove by the farm on Friday and LE was not guarding the entrance/gate area like they were the previous Saturday.

There hasn't been anything regarding the case on the local news.

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I wonder if the tent is still set up and if there's any LE guarding it?

Leila said:

It doesn't sound like weather is cooperating. LE is going to need a week to 10 days of dry weather for the search site to dry out enough to do further searching.

I think the delay in the search has probably been a combination of weather and getting the specialized equipment and a team to operate it lined up.

Does anyone know what the usual weather pattern is? I'm originally from upstate NY, and I remember spring rains, but by July we had long stretches of dry weather between summer thunderstorms.

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Hi Leila, as far as the weather patterns here in Illinois, we usually say if you don't like the weather, wait 15 minutes, it will change. Sorry to be glib, but the weather pattern tends to be, there is no weather pattern! I know here further north, after tomorrow it appears it will be dryer for about a week, but of course that's subject to change. Hopefully long enough for them to resume their search and find their answers.

I hate to be a pessimist, but if they haven't returned to begin some of the physical searching for over a week, then they probably feel that this is not a real lead. I can't see LE sitting on a potential crime scene for this long with no activity.

faefrost said:

I hate to be a pessimist, but if they haven't returned to begin some of the physical searching for over a week, then they probably feel that this is not a real lead. I can't see LE sitting on a potential crime scene for this long with no activity.

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I see two possibilities: they already got everything they need, or whatever is there isn't likely to go away (deep burial, for instance).

closeobserver said:

BBM......a body is nearly 100 degrees and cools very slowly. If recently deceased, the body wold be retaining the heat, especially if concealed in a closed container. Imagine how hot you would quickly get inside a closed barrel and you can imagine how the barrel may feel warm. You would actually create condensation inside the barrel because your body is warmer than the air temperature in the room. He didn't say the barrel was hot, just warm. I take that to mean a little warmer than you would expect if to touched a barrel in ambient temperature without a heat source (body at 98 degrees) inside.

It just isn't practical to add the weight of enough chemical to submerge the body inside the house. Not only would it make it more difficult to carry ( two people probably couldn't carry a barrel with a body and perhaps 20 or 30 gallons of liquid. Plus TM would have identified the barrel as having a liquid inside). Additionally, the fumes would be intense and if dropped or spilled, it would create a huge mess. Even a small spill would be easily detected by police investigators.

Chemical reactions causing dissolving typically cause expansion of the air inside a container so, again, the fumes couldn't have been contained.

Please, stop with the assumptions that the barrel was warm when TM moved it because the chemicals were inside the barrel.

Click to expand...

This is very true. But what if the chemicals weren't liquid? Many chemicals begin as a dry solid, then some liquid is added to start the reaction. It makes them safer to transport. So what if there was some small amt of solid chemical in them, the body was put in on top. Movement of the barrel would cause the solid chemical to spread over the remains more. The water in the remains and any spilled blood could have begun a slight reaction.

The other thing is that TM believed that he might be transporting Stacy's remains, he may have just imagined that the barrel was warm.

Another possibility is that Stacy wasn't in the barrel or container. That DrewP used TM only as a distraction. I have always wondered why DrewP would pick TM as an acomplice. TM wasn't hardcore criminal, as a matter of fact he seems to have a concience. DrewP can read people so he would have known that TM couldn't be a trusted accomplice. So why call on him, except maybe as a distraction? By using him as a distraction everyone is looking for a blue barrel. My bet is that no blue barrel was involved. Since leads are now pointing to a new accomplice, I am guessing that that is what was intended. DrewP figured that TM would go to the cops. So he is the distraction and the accomplice is the one that actually helped him and knew what happened.

faefrost said:

I hate to be a pessimist, but if they haven't returned to begin some of the physical searching for over a week, then they probably feel that this is not a real lead. I can't see LE sitting on a potential crime scene for this long with no activity.

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There are two possibilities. Either it isn't a real lead..... in which case LE is usually good about letting media know that it has been ruled out. (It serves no purpose to keep it secret from the media, it just keeps the media hounding them. And it won't scare DrewP to pretend they are going to search if he knows she isn't there.) Or there is more going on, but LE just isn't talking about it. Maybe testing for instance, or waiting on more equipment.

The other thing is that the trial is scheduled to begin soon. I am wondering about the effect on the trial. Ok accomplice testifies that x is what happened, that he and DrewP took the remains to y and disposed of them. LE searched and searched, but did not find remains at the site. What effect would that have on the accomplice testimony? But if LE just hasn't gotten around to searching that site yet, it has a different affect.

carbuff said:

I see two possibilities: they already got everything they need, or whatever is there isn't likely to go away (deep burial, for instance).

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Hi, I'm a newbie, but have been reading for a long time. I agree that they already have found something, and they're just waiting for DNA. IMHO

mysteriew said:

This is very true. But what if the chemicals weren't liquid? Many chemicals begin as a dry solid, then some liquid is added to start the reaction. It makes them safer to transport. So what if there was some small amt of solid chemical in them, the body was put in on top. Movement of the barrel would cause the solid chemical to spread over the remains more. The water in the remains and any spilled blood could have begun a slight reaction.

The other thing is that TM believed that he might be transporting Stacy's remains, he may have just imagined that the barrel was warm.

Another possibility is that Stacy wasn't in the barrel or container. That DrewP used TM only as a distraction. I have always wondered why DrewP would pick TM as an acomplice. TM wasn't hardcore criminal, as a matter of fact he seems to have a concience. DrewP can read people so he would have known that TM couldn't be a trusted accomplice. So why call on him, except maybe as a distraction? By using him as a distraction everyone is looking for a blue barrel. My bet is that no blue barrel was involved. Since leads are now pointing to a new accomplice, I am guessing that that is what was intended. DrewP figured that TM would go to the cops. So he is the distraction and the accomplice is the one that actually helped him and knew what happened.

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Anything is possible

However, to your first point (again, this is only my opinion), why take any chance of starting a chemical reaction in the house. Plus, he was away long enough to dissolve the body in chemicals. The only reason he would want to begin the reaction early is so he wouldn't have to be away from the house for 3 days.

Regarding T.M., I think he believed him to be faithful for what ever reason....blackmail, deeds owed, etc.