trial thread: 3/27/2012

matou · Mar 27, 2012

BA is in this video clip: http://www.niagaraadvance.ca/2012/03/27/rafferty-trial-shifts-focus

maxfactor · Mar 27, 2012

Wondergirl said:
Some people seem to think there will not be evidence of sexual assault on Victoria's remains, due to the decomposition.

I am not so sure.

I have been doing a little research on that subject, and also the one on "mixed blood".

I found a presentation on the subject, and since it appeared to be presented in layman's terms, I thought I would post these here.

I figured the easiest way was screenshots, so, please forgive the quantity.

There are 61 screens, at the link, and it is an interesting overview.

I have to do this in 3 posts.

http://projects.nfstc.org/bsw/presentations/BEO_serology_and_DNA_110609_NAC_CBS_JMS.pdf

That's very interesting!!! Gives me other ideas where they could have checked for DNA, like under Tori's fingernails. Possibly even on her shirt.

Wondergirl · Mar 27, 2012

Part Three:

http://projects.nfstc.org/bsw/presentations/BEO_serology_and_DNA_110609_NAC_CBS_JMS.pdf

dilbert · Mar 27, 2012

snoofer said:
Over the years, Mennonites have become known as one of the historic peace churches because of their commitment to nonviolence. -Wikipedia

Apparently the land with the rock pile where Tori was found was mennonite land.

They've also been known for drug running and being some of the worst owners of puppy mills.

http://caj.ca/wp-content/uploads/20...Andrew Mitrovica) Saturday Night Magazine.htm

http://www.saugeentimes.com/464 Sandy/Pet Rescues october 5 2011/Template.htm

Wondergirl · Mar 27, 2012

matou said:
BA is in this video clip: http://www.niagaraadvance.ca/2012/03/27/rafferty-trial-shifts-focus

Ummm, she appeared a little hostile!

Wondergirl · Mar 27, 2012

Is he checking his phone or texting while at the ATM? I wonder if he was texting to BA about the drug buy? Kind of a conicidence that the sum is $400.

Thanks London Free Press for all the extra effort in covering Victoria's case.

Michael Rafferty is seen on a surveillance tape from a Woodstock bank taking out cash just after 11 a.m. April 8, 2009. A jury in his first-degree murder trial heard testimony he arranged to buy drugs later that day in Guelph.

According to bank receipts presented Tuesday, Rafferty took out $400 from a BMO branch in Woodstock about 11:10 a.m. April 8, 2009.

During that same morning, he texted her to arrange a drug buy, Armstrong testified.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/27/19557676.html

antiquegirl · Mar 27, 2012

Juris_Prudence said:
Ok, but what about when she admitted to LE that she sold Percs to him? Wouldn't that make her a self confessed dealer? Surely the Crown knew what her testimony would be about her encounter with them that evening before they tossed her up on the stand???

Sure they knew. I'm no lawyer, but I say "no". There's no point in charging someone with a crime if there's no hope of a conviction in court. No evidence, no conviction. I could confess to murdering 10 people, but if there was zero evidence to convict me, they wouldn't even charge me. Now, if I were her, I'd watch myself in the future. LE in Guelph (or wherever she lives now) might decide to keep a close eye on her. But as for past offenses - no way.

JMO

Wondergirl · Mar 27, 2012

This is interesting.

The last time Armstrong tried to reach him was May 15 or 17, but he didn't reply to her text, Armstrong said. A few days later, she heard Rafferty had been arrested for Tori's murder

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/27/19557676.html
.

Wondergirl · Mar 27, 2012

BA did testify that she did NOT see anyone else in the car.

About 4:30 p.m. in Guelph that same day, Rafferty was waiting in front of her house in a blue Honda Civic when she arrived home from work, Armstrong testified. She told jurors she could see a woman in the passenger front seat, but no one else in the car.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/27/19557676.html

myzzy · Mar 27, 2012

antiquegirl said:
(BBM)

I'm pretty sure you can't get charged for drug trafficking strictly on the say-so of a convicted murderer. (Or anyone, for that matter. Yikes!). LE would either have to find drugs on her person, or obtain a warrant (with probable cause) to search her home and find some that are not prescriptions written in her name. Even then, possession would be all they could charge her with.

JMO

Juris_Prudence said:
Ok, but what about when she admitted to LE that she sold Percs to him? Wouldn't that make her a self confessed dealer? Surely the Crown knew what her testimony would be about her encounter with them that evening before they tossed her up on the stand???

I also believe with her admitting it and testifying to it that some type of deal was made with her, The police know who she is now, what she does and would monitor her in the future if they could get her to tell them about her dealings with rafferty but thats my MOO

dilbert · Mar 27, 2012

antiquegirl said:
Sure they knew. I'm no lawyer, but I say "no". There's no point in charging someone with a crime if there's no hope of a conviction in court. No evidence, no conviction. I could confess to murdering 10 people, but if there was zero evidence to convict me, they wouldn't even charge me. Now, if I were her, I'd watch myself in the future. LE in Guelph (or wherever she lives now) might decide to keep a close eye on her. But as for past offenses - no way.

JMO

There were quite a few dealers and users rounded up here in the two years after Tori's murder, not much happens to them IMO, I know of a few that I've read about in the papers, having been busted more than once, and they're always right back on the streets again, ripping people off.
I swear they're Teflon-coated.

MOO

myzzy · Mar 27, 2012

Wondergirl said:
BA did testify that she did NOT see anyone else in the car.

I wonder why she did not describe how she saw the person in the car, was she facing forward, moving around, hiding/slid down, looking in the back ect..

Also roughly 10 mins of chit chat BA testified, thats a long time for someone with Tori in the backseat, i would have thought in and out asap. BA was a friend/ex who he knew and could rush in and out vs a drug dealer who might want u to stay a few minutes to not have suspicions.

I see alot of "no rushing" no worrys " no concerns" type of people with the videos they have provided so far, and this is just another one of those tidbits that puts me on the fence.

I really cant wait to hear the reason MR had Tori in his car, HIS VERSION. His reason.

antiquegirl · Mar 27, 2012

myzzy said:
I also believe with her admitting it and testifying to it that some type of deal was made with her, The police know who she is now, what she does and would monitor her in the future if they could get her to tell them about her dealings with rafferty but thats my MOO

No deal would have to be made to get her to testify. The Crown subpoenas her, she is bound by law to testify. Failure to comply results in a legal penalty. That's it.

I doubt they'd make any deal to look the other way in the future.

JMO

dar107 · Mar 27, 2012

myzzy said:
I wonder why she did not describe how she saw the person in the car, was she facing forward, moving around, hiding/slid down, looking in the back ect..

Also roughly 10 mins of chit chat BA testified, thats a long time for someone with Tori in the backseat, i would have thought in and out asap. BA was a friend/ex who he knew and could rush in and out vs a drug dealer who might want u to stay a few minutes to not have suspicions.

I see alot of "no rushing" no worrys " no concerns" type of people with the videos they have provided so far, and this is just another one of those tidbits that puts me on the fence.

I really cant wait to hear the reason MR had Tori in his car, HIS VERSION. His reason.

ITA and it is strange. Even if Tori was hidden under a coat on the floor, it was still daylight during all these stops, and they were not worried she might pop her head up at some point? and take a chance that Tori might not scream if she realized there was another woman near by?

I don't know if we will hear a lot from the defense, I think their biggest attack was on TLM, with her lack of credibility, her violent nature shown over and over, even in recent months after she had just finished saying she was a different person now then she was then. Her luring Tori, her purchasing the murder weapon and bags, she has either admitted to or been caught on video in every act of this crime, except for the sexual assault. then the possibility that they do not have solid DNA evidence of this act. That may be their only hope to find him not guilty on some or all counts. I don't know if that will be enough, that's going to be up to the jury that is sitting there everyday, listening to this horrific story, looking and closely watching the accused and the witnesses on a daily basis.

I am keeping the faith that if MR did commit this horrific act, that they do have the evidence to prove it. And it will tie the whole case together without any question IMO.

swedie · Mar 28, 2012

The pair, with their stolen girl cargo, then hit the 401 Highway and headed east on a bizarre trip — first to Guelph, Ont., where Rafferty allegedly stopped to buy some Percocet pills from a friend and then went to an ATM, and McClintic bought a hammer and green garbage bags at a Home Depot, and then into Wellington County and the countryside.

More damning evidence brought forward for the jurors to weigh in on. This new evidence today, the jurors will be not be struggling to figure this case out thus far. The Crown has laid this case out so crisp and clean, simple to follow. Not bringing in a bunch of useless nonsense, turning it into a soap opera; keeping everything on the rails and real. GREAT JOB CROWN! :woohoo::woohoo:

Once again the defense has nothing from these two witness today to help their client. :tears:
:moo:

The video cameras ubiquitous in the modern world, Gowdey said, caught Rafferty at the ATM, and McClintic at the Home Depot.

Tori wasn't seen on any of the video, but she was indisputably in the car: Her DNA was later found in blood detected on the rear passenger door of the Civic.

In one spot, on a gym bag found in the car, Tori's blood was mixed with Rafferty's.

Read more: http://www.canada.com/news/Blatchfo...urned+deadly/6254606/story.html#ixzz1qNbPzMgA

antiquegirl · Mar 28, 2012

Wondergirl said:
We could say the same thing about MTR.

JMO

We could. We could also say the same thing about you and me. Don't know about you, but neither I nor MTR has a record.

TLM, on the other hand, is almost certainly a sociopath. There's no doubt in my mind.

JMO

antiquegirl · Mar 28, 2012

swedie said:
The pair, with their stolen girl cargo, then hit the 401 Highway and headed east on a bizarre trip first to Guelph, Ont., where Rafferty allegedly stopped to buy some Percocet pills from a friend and then went to an ATM, and McClintic bought a hammer and green garbage bags at a Home Depot, and then into Wellington County and the countryside.

More damning evidence brought forward for the jurors to weigh in on. This new evidence today, the jurors will be not be struggling to figure this case out thus far. The Crown has laid this case out so crisp and clean, simple to follow. Not bringing in a bunch of useless nonsense, turning it into a soap opera; keeping everything on the rails and real. GREAT JOB CROWN! :woohoo::woohoo:

Once again the defense has nothing from these two witness today to help their client. :tears:
:moo:

The video cameras ubiquitous in the modern world, Gowdey said, caught Rafferty at the ATM, and McClintic at the Home Depot.

Tori wasn't seen on any of the video, but she was indisputably in the car: Her DNA was later found in blood detected on the rear passenger door of the Civic.

In one spot, on a gym bag found in the car, Tori's blood was mixed with Rafferty's.

Read more: http://www.canada.com/news/Blatchfo...urned+deadly/6254606/story.html#ixzz1qNbPzMgA

Respectfully, it would be really helpful if you could indicate in your post which parts are quotes from the media and which are your own opinions and comments. Otherwise, it gets pretty confusing. There is a "wrap quotes" option above that's for this purpose. Or even quotation marks would make it clearer. HTH and TIA

JMO

Alice Ramnit · Mar 28, 2012

ONE SEC!
Maybe I am just over tired...but if TML got out of the car and went into the Home Depot and MR got out and went to the ATM machine...did they just leave little Tori alone in the back seat under a coat???

That makes no sense to me at all!

Alison · Mar 28, 2012

antiquegirl said:
Percocets, not Oxys. If BA wasn't asked how much she was paid, there's no way to know.

JMO

I understand that you are clarifying the difference, however percs have the same base drug as Oxycontin (which is Oxycodone).However percs have ASA mixed in, to reduce swelling in injuries.While Percs have 5mg of Oxycodone,Oxycontin can contain 10 to 80 mg of the base drug Oxycodone. If enough percs are ingested they will have the same affect as Oxycontins however they may have a stomache ache due to the ASA (which is an undesirable side effect). Oxycontin addicts will settle for percs if supply is low. So it is basically the same difference.

Alison · Mar 28, 2012

captaincanada said:
These actions suggest the defence is plausible.

If MR really had planned the abduction:

(1) He would have already had the garbage bags and hammer with him. To suggest he made TLM get these items to cover for himself is too risky. If he was that smart he would have known he would be caught on tape.
(2) He would not have stopped for drugs.
(3) He would not have gone to Tim Horton's and risk getting caught.

Now, if TLM had taken Tori with her and told MR that she was babysitting Tori perhaps and/or did not give MR any intentions of what SHE planned, then:

(1) She would have stopped to get tea at Tim Horton's.
(2) She would be okay with MR stopping to get drugs.
(3) She could have lied to MR about Home Depot and said she had to pick something up.

Or it just suggests he is a drug addict with sick fantasies who did not think out the whole abduction? I just do not buy that it was all TLM and he was an innocent by-standard. Stopping at Timmies could have been his way of grounding himself, perhaprs even wishing to be caught before he commited his offensive act? After not being caught he went to go get drugs to alter his thought process, to be able to go through with what he knows is a sick disgusting fantasy? Just because he did these things IMO does not mean he did not know they were wrong and perhaps he was trying to stop himself, gain control and then when all else failed numb himself to commit the act.

trial thread: 3/27/2012

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