PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #7

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THANK YOU, Lord C.
I don't know why the article didn't show up in my version of the site, but it didn't.

So LE has known about this woman and has sat on this info too.

I just have to wonder now what all they know and won't say and WHY?

He WAS a DA, but he isn't now, he is legally dead, and they really look STUPID with their scent dogs perched on the front of boats.. LE needs to tell the public more of what they know.

Maybe Dateline will break the case wide open!!! That will show LE!! :)
 
All I can do is copy and paste...it is long !!! (Me italicized).

aaArticle rank 30 Nov 2011 The Daily Item (Sunbury, PA)By Rick Dandes The Daily Item Witness: Missing DA with blonde ZoomBookmarkSharePrintListenTranslate“I never told police about it ... I looked and saw a man, and a woman with blond hair. I remember thinking about her, ‘Wow, big hair.’” — Ivy Butterworth, Milton resident


Email comments to rdandes@dailyitem. com

Printed and distributed by NewpaperDirect | www.newspaperdirect.com, US/Can: 1.877.980.4040, Intern: 800.6364.6364 | Copyright and protected by applicable law.

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My beret is tipped to you, your Lordship! :)

I can't find it, however.

Mystery Woman, in the Mini. WOW!

I can't confirm it yet, however.
 
My beret is tipped to you, your Lordship! :)

I can't find it, however.

Mystery Woman, in the Mini. WOW!

I can't confirm it yet, however.

Coming from you, JJ, that tip of the Beret is huge !!! For confirmation, do a Google on the Daily Item of Sunbury, reference date 11-30-2011, the front page will appear on PressDisplay.com, then bang, right on front page. The whole enchilada !!! Let me know, ok ? Titled: Witness: Missing DA with blonde
 
THANK YOU, Lord C.
I don't know why the article didn't show up in my version of the site, but it didn't.

So LE has known about this woman and has sat on this info too.

I just have to wonder now what all they know and won't say and WHY?

He WAS a DA, but he isn't now, he is legally dead, and they really look STUPID with their scent dogs perched on the front of boats.. LE needs to tell the public more of what they know.

Maybe Dateline will break the case wide open!!! That will show LE!! :)

Sorry, didn't mean to ignore you over there...was busy getting that article Up Here...lol...and U n JJ now, both being DA's !!! LMAO !!!
 


Coming from you, JJ, that tip of the Beret is huge !!! For confirmation, do a Google on the Daily Item of Sunbury, reference date 11-30-2011, the front page will appear on PressDisplay.com, then bang, right on front page. The whole enchilada !!! Let me know, ok ? Titled: Witness: Missing DA with blonde

I'd have to subcribe. :( That might be out on Dateline.

The time of the sighting would be important.

BB might be confused. The report of the woman in SoS said she had dark hair. There were three other red Mini's in the area as well. My understanding is LE had to factor those out as well. [/Devil's Advocate]

It has the potential to be gigantic, however.
 
I'd have to subcribe. :( That might be out on Dateline.

The time of the sighting would be important.

BB might be confused. The report of the woman in SoS said she had dark hair. There were three other red Mini's in the area as well. My understanding is LE had to factor those out as well. [/Devil's Advocate]

It has the potential to be gigantic, however.

I was able to get right to the article, no subscription. Did you get to it through PressDisplay ? Yes, this all went down just days ago, and I am surprised more of this has not come out yet. Your comment of cigarette smoke in the mini to cover up perfume may prove to be just right !!! In any regard, this will be something to watch for. I had heard of the 'other Mini's' before, however, the young blonde contact is Way Up There, moreso than the alleged dark haired LMW at the SOS. Let's see what plays out...hehe
 
1) Was the case considered to be a criminal case from the beginning?

It is a missing persons case.

2) Is this why, as far as we know, there have been NO volunteer searches?

They did have organized volunteer searches, and the were private individuals looking around.

3) Ditto a PI coming in, or a fantastic ground search team like TES.

The family will not hire one. They can be expensive.

4) What effect did having RG declared legally dead have on the already cold investigation?

None. Even the lawyers said, if found, the heirs would have to return the money. On the AG's chart of the Sandusky case, RFG is listed as "Missing since 2005."

5) What are the ODDS that LE knows that Ray is alive and well but cannot say so?

Unknown. There might be some legacy protection, but after Sandusky, there isn't much left to protect. :(

6) How is it that a man declared legally dead, who was a respected man in both Ohio and PA gets NO memorial service???

Family decision.

Having buried my father a few years ago, I can understand some of their emotions, so I won't be critical.
 
I was able to get right to the article, no subscription. Did you get to it through PressDisplay ? Yes, this all went down just days ago, and I am surprised more of this has not come out yet. Your comment of cigarette smoke in the mini to cover up perfume may prove to be just right !!! In any regard, this will be something to watch for. I had heard of the 'other Mini's' before, however, the young blonde contact is Way Up There, moreso than the alleged dark haired LMW at the SOS. Let's see what plays out...hehe

It wasn't my remark; it was Jana's. :)

I still can't get it, but that is okay. I'd be interested in the time of the sighting. If it was 11:30 AM, for example, it probably wasn't RFG. If it was after 5:30 PM, we might have something.

If one of the other Mini's was in the parking lot, and the driver was accompanied by a blond, we can rule it out.

BTW: This is how a message board should work, building off each others ideas and critically analyzing them. :)
 
It wasn't my remark; it was Jana's. :)

I still can't get it, but that is okay. I'd be interested in the time of the sighting. If it was 11:30 AM, for example, it probably wasn't RFG. If it was after 5:30 PM, we might have something.

If one of the other Mini's was in the parking lot, and the driver was accompanied by a blond, we can rule it out.

BTW: This is how a message board should work, building off each others ideas and critically analyzing them. :)

Good BTW comment ! A thought I had : this witness woman just comes out of the woodwork...just how many others are there ? She didn't even go to LE over this, just right up to the media. I guess we'll see what goes down here. Thanks.
 
Yes, just read and re-read your blog post because it raised so many questions.. Behavioral psychs. like me believe that ALL behavior has meaning.. Probably the most chilling thing was him turning away from a JUDGE, looking at a bookcase, and stating that he would not be present in October...

I do not buy, not for one second, the idea that he planned to take time off DURING A DEATH CASE because it was his birthday. If I have read once that he prosecuted this most serious of all cases, I've read it 25 times or more.

RFG was sort of like that. He was looking at retirement and was passing out cases. It is not too unusual that he would not schedule something for that time, from what I understand.

And what were the " Specal Circumstances" that allowed Lara to petition and for the court to declare RG dead before 7 years? From everything I've read, it's 7 years OR " special circumstances which definitely point to but do not prove death".

The way the statute is worded, you don't need special circumstances. Blog on it is here, and the links should take you to the PA statutes: http://www.centredaily.com/2011/02/18/2529829/gricar-is-alive-legally.html
 
Good BTW comment ! A thought I had : this witness woman just comes out of the woodwork...just how many others are there ? She didn't even go to LE over this, just right up to the media. I guess we'll see what goes down here. Thanks.

Some were not reported and I've never claimed my witness list was complete. :)
 
It wasn't my remark; it was Jana's. :)

I still can't get it, but that is okay. I'd be interested in the time of the sighting. If it was 11:30 AM, for example, it probably wasn't RFG. If it was after 5:30 PM, we might have something.

If one of the other Mini's was in the parking lot, and the driver was accompanied by a blond, we can rule it out.

BTW: This is how a message board should work, building off each others ideas and critically analyzing them. :)

For YEARS, I posted on this case and people ( who are no longer on WS for very good reasons) shot down my ideas.. I stopped posting for a long time.

Then, I stopped coming to WS for about 2 years.. My dad died, too, and I just couldn't deal with my empathetic feelings for others in pain on my " off time",
Selfish, I know.. but it's not like I am going to solve this case....

I have to say how very very happy I am that today I found out new evidence is probably very positive for Ray!!! A pretty young blonde with Ray Gricar makes me the happiest of all possible scenarios. :)
IF there is any Karmic justice, then the two of them did leave together and are happy somewhere. This man has done so much for so many in his lifetime, and left everything he had to his daughter/ PFo.

If he left with a pretty young blonde, then I don't think he was cruel or selfish, I think it was possibly the best thing he ever did for himself. Lord knows, that picture of PFo and BG at the press conference has haunted me. RG deserves pretty & blonde & young.. :)

I'm so glad we are sharing ideas and thoughts... and having a respectful good time with what otherwise becomes oppressive very quickly.

J.J., thank you for clarifying that there were volunteer searches early on. Since I live so far away, this part was not widely reported nationally, and over time, has been lost.

Do you think there's any chance that we, as a group, can get a good PI interested in taking this case pro bono? It's high profile, it has all the elements of putting a PI in the national spotlight. The possibility of a pretty blonde in the case just might tip the scales now, you think?? :)
 
For YEARS, I posted on this case and people ( who are no longer on WS for very good reasons) shot down my ideas.. I stopped posting for a long time.

Then, I stopped coming to WS for about 2 years.. My dad died, too, and I just couldn't deal with my empathetic feelings for others in pain on my " off time",
Selfish, I know.. but it's not like I am going to solve this case....

I have to say how very very happy I am that today I found out new evidence is probably very positive for Ray!!! A pretty young blonde with Ray Gricar makes me the happiest of all possible scenarios. :)
IF there is any Karmic justice, then the two of them did leave together and are happy somewhere. This man has done so much for so many in his lifetime, and left everything he had to his daughter/ PFo.

If he left with a pretty young blonde, then I don't think he was cruel or selfish, I think it was possibly the best thing he ever did for himself. Lord knows, that picture of PFo and BG at the press conference has haunted me. RG deserves pretty & blonde & young.. :)

I'm so glad we are sharing ideas and thoughts... and having a respectful good time with what otherwise becomes oppressive very quickly.

J.J., thank you for clarifying that there were volunteer searches early on. Since I live so far away, this part was not widely reported nationally, and over time, has been lost.

Do you think there's any chance that we, as a group, can get a good PI interested in taking this case pro bono? It's high profile, it has all the elements of putting a PI in the national spotlight. The possibility of a pretty blonde in the case just might tip the scales now, you think?? :)

Great idea, Jana...lets just hope some of this brings the story to the point MORE will be revealed by LE. I found the article interesting also, in that the Media seems to have some 'inside' info as this filming was going on...had to get 'approval' from higher ups, etc, etc, etc. There is more behind this story. High five to you !!! :great:
 
Being Devil's Advocate again, let's not get too excited.

A. This might not have been RFG.

B. The blond might end up being involved in an act of foul play against RFG.

:( I'm not happy about it, but please, while this is potentially good news, it might not end up being good news.

Note to self: Don't get too excited.
 
First, I don't think Ray's case would have stayed in the public eye or the facts known except for JJ's participation. ( JJ- hope you have found your " home" here on WS vs. " those other sites"). :rocker::gthanks:

And LC, if we were discussing these things face to face, I would hug you!
I do searches on " Ray Gricar" every day of my life and I missed what you found!!! :woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

Thank you both!!!

JJ, how do you feel about a PI? I think we can get someone to rock this case if you are behind the idea too. :)
 
Being Devil's Advocate again, let's not get too excited.

A. This might not have been RFG.

B. The blond might end up being involved in an act of foul play against RFG.

:( I'm not happy about it, but please, while this is potentially good news, it might not end up being good news.

Note to self: Don't get too excited.

Very well put. Just that nothing, as you would well know, after all this time...has come to the surface in all these years. How do you think I felt when I googled that out...Major Chills, to say the least. Just the fact that it IS something new, and may help break this deadlock of a 'Seance'. I feel there is something really big behind all this, so will do my best to remain calm and watchful.

Would like to see a positive outcome here, but I am with you on the possibility that it may not as well. To say the least, we've had a moving evening here ! :wink:
 
First, I don't think Ray's case would have stayed in the public eye or the facts known except for JJ's participation. ( JJ- hope you have found your " home" here on WS vs. " those other sites"). :rocker::gthanks:

And LC, if we were discussing these things face to face, I would hug you!
I do searches on " Ray Gricar" every day of my life and I missed what you found!!! :woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

Thank you both!!!

JJ, how do you feel about a PI? I think we can get someone to rock this case if you are behind the idea too. :)

Jana my Dear...thanks for the accolades...I had chills when I came across it, and sweating bullets, may I add ... lol ! I feel like we're all here at this very moment...I can 'feel' you ! Ah, the wonder of it all ! Your passion is contagious, and always love your input. For all of us on WS, I hope we can bear witness to a major break in this case, and we shared a special moment tonite with each other. Very compelling. :wink:
 
Being Devil's Advocate again, let's not get too excited.

A. This might not have been RFG.

B. The blond might end up being involved in an act of foul play against RFG.

:( I'm not happy about it, but please, while this is potentially good news, it might not end up being good news.

Note to self: Don't get too excited.

Although I'm not a "profiler", in a way, I am. What clients ( and people in general) say is not nearly as important to me as what is left unsaid most of the time, or the importance of body language. Over time when dealing with a client, I start to see patterns emerge.. to the point that I can often anticipate what they will say and how they will react next.. And what problems they are probably going to bring to me next. That's pretty much profiling..
Same thing here on WS. When people were saying C. Anthony would get the death penalty, I had serious doubts about a guilty verdict.. But with sentiment running so high, I didn't see that posting my doubts would help anyone, especially not me. I have very strong theories which do not fit " the popular theory" about a few other cases.. Since justice is not mine to decide, I keep my opinions to myself because there's no point in arguing. I hate contention.

So, over a period of years, I have come to believe certain things about Ray Gricar based upon my experience, and I have come to question certain other patterns he seems to have had in his personal life.

ONE of the main " WTF" moments for me was the first time, just a couple of months ago, when I saw PFo and BG's joint photo at an early press conference and instinctively knew that BG was not PFo's mother or sister..but the woman RG was married to for a long time.

I'm just going to come out and say it. I'm sure both women are smart, well- educated. I know they have had productive careers, etc.I am not judging this at all.
BUT, physically they almost look androgynous. Like boys.
I have always, always thought that RG surely wanted a beautiful, enticing, exciting girlfriend in a serious relationship instead of a plain Jane.
This is a man who chose a slightly nerdy but somewhat trendy red sports car and loved to drive fast. ( I can so identify with the driving a convertible fast. I do the same in my BMWs and before that, in my Sebring, and before that in my.. you get the idea). So, the car and statements about his driving joys let me know that he IS a bit of a risk taker, a bit of an adrenaline junkie, and that appearances DO matter to him...

I choose to think the young blond woman was someone Ray knew very well, and had fallen in love with.

JJ, I guess now is a good time to refresh my " Finding love with the person of one's dreams on the Internet" theory. :) :)I KNOW it happens. I know it can be a very strong personal relationship before the two people meet in person. Maybe RG met her on the Internet ( and I don't mean some sex site either) or maybe he knew her in his daily life.. We don't know yet.

BTW, not sure if any of you have experienced being committed to and living with one person and loving someone new and exciting, but the emotional roller coaster will definitely cause changes in attitude, and maybe-- changes in latitude.

Edited to add: I don't have the gut feeling that she was a lure to his death. That would imply that Ray Gricar could not spot a sociopath. I believe he would see right through an insincere person. I don't think she was from PA, nor that she lived in his area. Again, just a got feeling.. It's all good vibes for now...
 
JJ, how do you feel about a PI? I think we can get someone to rock this case if you are behind the idea too. :)

The family spokesman said, prior to the declaration of death, that if some PI would volunteer his services, they'd be interested. I doubt if anyone would volunteer.

At this point, there has been no suggestion of one being hired.

I did have one comment on a blog earlier this year.

As far as I'm concerned, it would be great.
 
The family spokesman said, prior to the declaration of death, that if some PI would volunteer his services, they'd be interested. I doubt if anyone would volunteer.

At this point, there has been no suggestion of one being hired.

I did have one comment on a blog earlier this year.

As far as I'm concerned, it would be great.

I believe our blog has a Google 'hit' as to the Post. Our traffic may be Up a tad ... lol ... not to the liking of the "Other" community ... may have to give a lookie see over There...hehe. I'm all for the PI idea !!!
 
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