Are the Ramseys involved or not?

Are the Ramseys involved or not?

  • The Ramseys are somehow involved in the crime and/or cover-up

    Votes: 883 75.3%
  • The Ramseys are not involved at all in the crime or cover-up

    Votes: 291 24.8%

  • Total voters
    1,173
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I wish Mary Lacey could be charged with misleading the public or something.

Pity arse-covering is not illegal.

I am sure some things that both AH and ML did were illegal- obstruction of justice?
But ML's crime was "clearing" a family she had no legal right to clear.
And of course, her biggest "crime" of bringing JMK from Thailand back to the US. Trying to pin this crime on him when they couldn't even place him in Boulder that night- just to deflect away from the Rs. A demon like Karr doesn't stop. He fantasized about having sex with JB and killing her. Men like that act out their fantasies when they get the chance. And ML has given him the chance. He is free to move about, and when he gets the opportunity he will act on his fantasies. And every child he molests, their blood is on ML's hands.
It was sickening to watch her at that press conference, with a smirking Lou Smit and MT sitting behind her. Yeah, they "solved" this case alright.
 
With all this to-and-fro I personally don't have a clue if you support the Ramseys or not?

If anyone does indeed still support the intruder theory, please answer me one question -

Why were there no footprints in the snow?


Just so there is no confusion I have been RDI since December of '96
 
I disagree. Any prosecutor worth his salt would explain, in no uncertain terms, exactly why the touch DNA means nothing. It must be connected to a known contributor and there must be corroborative evidence proving that the contributor was the offender.

Then, after doing that, the other evidence such as the fiber evidence from John and Patsy must be accounted for and dismissed in an intelligent manner. Just saying the fibers were "transferred" won't get it. It is highly unlikely an Intruder picked up fibers from both John and Patsy from clothing consistent with those fibers and worn the night JonBenet was killed, not to mention that John's shirt fibers were found in JonBenet's underwear and Patsy's fibers were found entwined in the ligature.

All I'm saying is that they couldn't get an indictment w/o the touch DNA. Touch DNA does not make an indictment more likely. It does not make a conviction more likely.

The only way it would help is if it were identified as belonging to a particular individual. But that isn't going to happen.
 
However I truly believe if the family was involved in any way someone somehow would have slipped up and said something to someone in these past 15 years. Since there has been no evidence this has happened I chose to believe they are NOT responsible in any part with Jonbenet's death.

That's an...INTERESTING basis for your belief, R.U. There are people who have been in prison for 20 years who say they didn't do it.

Surely by now they would of been imprisoned.

How much time have you got, R.U.? I could spend days addressing that statement.
 
One thing that has been consistently underestimated is that the Rs had excellent legal advice. Say what you like about conspiracy, but really a big part of the reason they aren't in prison is that they simply exercised all of their rights.

Absolutely right, Chrishope. You probably remember: I posted an article from "National Review" that outlined how the courts have expanded criminal rights so greatly that the only reason anybody gets convicted at all anymore is because they don't know just how many rights they have!

One does not have to talk to the police -even if they arrest you. (And of course, no arrests were made) There really isn't a good case against them, because reasonable doubt is a pretty high standard. There exists reasonable doubt about why fibers where in certain places, and why objects in the house were used rather than objects brought in by the "intruder", and so on with most of the evidence. There exists reasonable doubt in the form of touch DNA. I know my fellow RDIs are going to pipe up and explain all the reasons that the DNA is not that of the killer (and I think it probably doesn't belong to the killer) but if we (RDIs) are honest, the touch DNA does provide reasonable doubt.

Like I've said before, Chrishope, the great majority of cases like this are not solved because of forensic evidence. They're solved by arresting both parties and grilling them separately until one of them turns on the other. Which leads back to the legal advice aspect I spoke of a moment ago.
 
The touch DNA would not have got her acquitted.

Touch DNA occurs everywhere, and the presence at a scene is not considered proof of anything - except to Mary Lacey that is.

That woman has done the biggest knowlegable disservice to justice that I have ever seen. Touch DNA is "junk science" and should NEVER have been used to acquit.


But it is the use of DNA profiling that raises the greatest public concern in regard to its accuracy, ethical use and impact on privacy...There are hints that the use of DNA evidence might be reined in, albeit temporarily. Some experts believe that it is now time to take stock and ensure that DNA profiling meets the fundamental rule for evidence used to convict criminals—that it is correct beyond all reasonable doubt—before further extending its use. In fact, the field faces a test case later this year when the Australian High Court hears the appeal of Benjamin Forbes against his conviction for sexual assault, which was based on DNA evidence as the victim was unable to identify her attacker. The appeal was inspired partly by an earlier Australian case, when a 22-year-old man was eventually freed in December 2009. It turned out that he had been wrongly convicted of rape in 2006 based on DNA evidence that turned out to be seriously flawed. This led Forbes' council to argue that conviction based on DNA evidence alone was unsafe for various reasons, such as incorrect procedures being followed or the prospect that future improvements in technology would shed a different light on it.


The Forbes appeal coincided with a paper published by the Australian Institute of Criminology, which stated that DNA evidence made convictions 33 times more likely in sexual assault cases (Australian Institute of Criminology, 2010). The paper also found that jurors were generally more likely to convict based on DNA evidence even though they often did not understand the science involved. The authors even suggested that the safety of these verdicts might be compromised by widespread misconceptions about the infallibility of DNA evidence by jurors who are “overawed by the scientific garb in which the evidence is presented and attach greater weight to it than it is capable of bearing.” If successful, Forbes' appeal could have a profound impact on the use of DNA evidence in court if jurors lose confidence in its infallibility..


If successful, Forbes' appeal could have a profound impact on the use of DNA evidence in court if jurors lose confidence in its infallibility
The controversy has arisen partly out of confusion between the use of DNA profiling as an investigative tool and as evidence in court. Its power as an investigative tool continues to increase, but its reliability as evidence will always vary depending on the exact nature of the DNA profile obtained and the state of the sample from which it was derived. The very fact that it is possible to obtain DNA profiles from degraded samples means that there are borderline cases in which the accuracy of DNA profiles is doubtful.

Having more loci increases the statistical power of DNA matching as a tool and decreases the chance of suspects being falsely identified. But other factors play a role too, notably the state of the sample. The older and more degraded the biological material is, the less loci can be amplified and the higher the risk of laboratory error. In such cases, the actual probability of a match between the partial DNA profile and an entry in a DNA database is a matter of intelligent guesswork; in fact this is the reason why the Forbes case was appealed.
There is also considerable risk arising from basic laboratory errors, as the hunt for the elusive ‘phantom of Heilbronn' demonstrated. For years, German, French and Austrian police investigators pursued a female suspect who, according to DNA evidence, had committed dozens of crimes and several murders over the course of 14 years including shooting two police officers in Heilbronn in 2007. Eventually, however, they discovered that the DNA profile retrieved from 40 crime scenes in three countries actually came from an employee of the Austrian company that produced the swabs police used to take samples at the crime scenes.


source - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2892330/

Clearly, the chain of evidence for JBR is pretty much shot, as she laid undiscovered for hours then was moved, carried, touched by several people once found. The scene was not secured, and PR's sister was allowed in to remove items from the home and do God knows what else unmonitored. The Colorado "justice" system of the time was inept, out of their depth, and completely blindsided by this crime. Mary Lacey compounds the embarrasment and confusion by claiming an exoneration that is far from certain in the eyes of any DNA expert.

She needs to hang her head in shame. She has ensured this case will likely never be solved, which was part of the plan all along. No one wants it solved, as too many heads will roll.:banghead: MOO.

Hi, SapphireSteel. Mind if I share with with some "friends" of mine?
 
That's an...INTERESTING basis for your belief, R.U. There are people who have been in prison for 20 years who say they didn't do it.



How much time have you got, R.U.? I could spend days addressing that statement.

You know your right SuperDave the Ramsey's may indeed be neck deep in guilt. Apparently most posters here believe that.....but many also believe they may just get away with murder due to a totally irresponsible investigation and powerful connections of this family.I just find it hard to believe that after all this time "something" has not surfaced to undeniable implicate them.

Unfortunately many here will be waiting for their day of reckoning and it just may never come. I sincerely hope that justice will prevail and the responsible parties are made to pay for ending a young life with so much Possibility.

....and I think I will just leave it at that:eek:fftheair:
 
You know your right SuperDave the Ramsey's may indeed be neck deep in guilt.

I'd call that likely.

Apparently most posters here believe that.....but many also believe they may just get away with murder due to a totally irresponsible investigation and powerful connections of this family.

Sadly, that seems likely, too.

I just find it hard to believe that after all this time "something" has not surfaced to undeniable implicate them.

I guess it depends on what your definition of "undeniable" is.

Unfortunately many here will be waiting for their day of reckoning and it just may never come. I sincerely hope that justice will prevail and the responsible parties are made to pay for ending a young life with so much Possibility.

I'm with you. But I've decided to make my own day of reckoning.
 
Many of us RDI's believe there was a huge coverup/conspiracy that prevented the R's from going to trial. Now, let's look at the other side of the spectrum. Can you imagine all the effort the R's would've put into this case if they were innocent? I could see John assembling a team of the best investigators in the world. Patsy would start a legitimate foundation. Maybe the case still would've gone unsolved, but with John's money and connections, and the media interest, it wouldn't be due to a lack of trying.
 
You know your right SuperDave the Ramsey's may indeed be neck deep in guilt. Apparently most posters here believe that.....but many also believe they may just get away with murder due to a totally irresponsible investigation and powerful connections of this family.I just find it hard to believe that after all this time "something" has not surfaced to undeniable implicate them.

Unfortunately many here will be waiting for their day of reckoning and it just may never come. I sincerely hope that justice will prevail and the responsible parties are made to pay for ending a young life with so much Possibility.

....and I think I will just leave it at that:eek:fftheair:


Your reply was addressed to SD but perhaps you won't mind if I chime in?

Short of a confession, I suspect everything that implicates them has already surfaced. The problem is that the GJ didn't find the evidence sufficient to indict the Rs. I let people with more case knowledge discuss the ins and outs of what was presented to the GJ and whether or not the GJ should have handed down indictments. The fact is, they didn't.

So, it's not a matter of something coming to the surface. It's just that the GJ wasn't persuaded.

To put it another way, someone got away with murder. It's hard to accept (no matter your theory of the case) but people do get away with murder. There are many unsolved murder cases every year. Sometimes the police have a pretty good idea who did it (and sometimes the police only think they know and are way way off base) but can't make a charge stick.

All that I'm doing here is discussing what I think is most likely - most probable. I don't delude myself into thinking that I can "solve" the case. For me it's much like the Jack The Ripper Case, or the Julia Wallace case. There will never be an official solution so we just discuss what seems to be the best answer.

It does seem to me that if JR was a drywall finisher making 32K a year and living in a large ramshackle farm house, but with all other details of the case essentially the same, he'd be sitting in a prison cell right now. Justice is different for the wealthy. It's not simply about power, money, and corruption, though those things might come into play in this case. It gets down to how people perceive others. Like it or not there is a perception that these things don't happen in "good" families. If JR was a dyrwall man and Patsy clerked at the 7-11 the evidence against them would have been far more convincing. The exact same evidence.
 
Many of us RDI's believe there was a huge coverup/conspiracy that prevented the R's from going to trial. Now, let's look at the other side of the spectrum. Can you imagine all the effort the R's would've put into this case if they were innocent? I could see John assembling a team of the best investigators in the world. Patsy would start a legitimate foundation. Maybe the case still would've gone unsolved, but with John's money and connections, and the media interest, it wouldn't be due to a lack of trying.

eileenhawkeye,
Of course there was. That is either a red flag or an indicator of how corrupt the criminal justice system is?

The R's are involved because we have the forensic evidence proving they visited the crime-scene.

The 64K question is, why bother moving JonBenet and risking the forensic transfer, why not leave her in bed and blame it all on a nasty pedophile?

The end result would be the same, except JonBenet would be found immediately, and nobody could link John and Patsy to the wine-cellar.

And why is the staging such a mess, given they had the best part of five hours to refine it all?

Not unless JonBenet was not killed until later in the morning?




.
 
eileenhawkeye,
Of course there was. That is either a red flag or an indicator of how corrupt the criminal justice system is?

The R's are involved because we have the forensic evidence proving they visited the crime-scene.

The 64K question is, why bother moving JonBenet and risking the forensic transfer, why not leave her in bed and blame it all on a nasty pedophile?

She probably had to be wiped down anyway to remove forensic evidence. But why not wipe her down and leave her in bed?

Probably because a plot was hatched to stage a kidnapping. That would put "distance" between the killers and the victim. I suspect that the original plot included removing the body from the house, but that aspect was changed. If the killers had no experience with murder, the kidnapping may actually have struck them as plausible? At least more so than saying a boogey man stole into her room and did this while we slept.

The end result would be the same, except JonBenet would be found immediately, and nobody could link John and Patsy to the wine-cellar.

True.

And why is the staging such a mess, given they had the best part of five hours to refine it all?

One could argue that since the staging prevented an indictment, much less a conviction, that it wasn't a mess. But I won't go that far. It's a mess because the perps had no idea what the hell they were doing. They could have had 15 hours in which case they'd simply have botched it and rebotched it.

Not unless JonBenet was not killed until later in the morning?

Using widely accepted averages for rigor and food digestion, it's most likely she ate pineapple about 2 hours prior to death and it's most likely she died around midnight to perhaps 1am. There is room for error here, and I'd be happy to concede a couple hours. But I still don't think the staging was a mess due to lack of time. It's simply lack of knowledge about how the all but non-existent crime of "kidnapping gone bad turned bludgeon/strangulation acute digital penetration molestation" is supposed to look. To be fair, anyone would be confused as to how such a ridiculous scenario would look.




.[/quote]
 
She probably had to be wiped down anyway to remove forensic evidence. But why not wipe her down and leave her in bed?

Probably because a plot was hatched to stage a kidnapping. That would put "distance" between the killers and the victim. I suspect that the original plot included removing the body from the house, but that aspect was changed. If the killers had no experience with murder, the kidnapping may actually have struck them as plausible? At least more so than saying a boogey man stole into her room and did this while we slept.



True.



One could argue that since the staging prevented an indictment, much less a conviction, that it wasn't a mess. But I won't go that far. It's a mess because the perps had no idea what the hell they were doing. They could have had 15 hours in which case they'd simply have botched it and rebotched it.



Using widely accepted averages for rigor and food digestion, it's most likely she ate pineapple about 2 hours prior to death and it's most likely she died around midnight to perhaps 1am. There is room for error here, and I'd be happy to concede a couple hours. But I still don't think the staging was a mess due to lack of time. It's simply lack of knowledge about how the all but non-existent crime of "kidnapping gone bad turned bludgeon/strangulation acute digital penetration molestation" is supposed to look. To be fair, anyone would be confused as to how such a ridiculous scenario would look.




.
[/QUOTE]

Chrishope,
The R's may not have been criminally aware, but they were definitely not stupid.

I just wonder if we have the timeline all wrong? Were JonBenet and Burke at the breakfast bar precisely because they were awake early for the plane flight?



.
 
Chrishope,
The R's may not have been criminally aware, but they were definitely not stupid.

I just wonder if we have the timeline all wrong? Were JonBenet and Burke at the breakfast bar precisely because they were awake early for the plane flight?



.
Well, it's always good to look at the case from a new angle.

If they were awake early and having pineapple for breakfast, then when would you place the TOD?

If we accept that full rigor takes about 12 hours, even allowing for some error, how much later in the morning do you figure she could have died?

Personally, I like the idea of an early breakfast better than a late snack, just because it seems more likely to me. But a post-party snack certainly is a possibility.

It would be interesting to reconsider the time line, but how does such a theory fit with the onset of rigor?
 
Well, it's always good to look at the case from a new angle.

If they were awake early and having pineapple for breakfast, then when would you place the TOD?

If we accept that full rigor takes about 12 hours, even allowing for some error, how much later in the morning do you figure she could have died?

Personally, I like the idea of an early breakfast better than a late snack, just because it seems more likely to me. But a post-party snack certainly is a possibility.

It would be interesting to reconsider the time line, but how does such a theory fit with the onset of rigor?

Chrishope,
It would be interesting to reconsider the time line, but how does such a theory fit with the onset of rigor?
It probably does not fit very well at all.

Then again JonBenet was in a warm room, wrapped in a blanket, so onset may have been delayed somewhat?

The digestion of the pineapple limits the time-frame, but if the rigor can be accomodated, then Burke and JonBenet snacking prior to their flight, is a possibility.


.
 
Your reply was addressed to SD but perhaps you won't mind if I chime in?

Short of a confession, I suspect everything that implicates them has already surfaced. The problem is that the GJ didn't find the evidence sufficient to indict the Rs. I let people with more case knowledge discuss the ins and outs of what was presented to the GJ and whether or not the GJ should have handed down indictments. The fact is, they didn't.

So, it's not a matter of something coming to the surface. It's just that the GJ wasn't persuaded.

To put it another way, someone got away with murder. It's hard to accept (no matter your theory of the case) but people do get away with murder. There are many unsolved murder cases every year. Sometimes the police have a pretty good idea who did it (and sometimes the police only think they know and are way way off base) but can't make a charge stick.

All that I'm doing here is discussing what I think is most likely - most probable. I don't delude myself into thinking that I can "solve" the case. For me it's much like the Jack The Ripper Case, or the Julia Wallace case. There will never be an official solution so we just discuss what seems to be the best answer.

It does seem to me that if JR was a drywall finisher making 32K a year and living in a large ramshackle farm house, but with all other details of the case essentially the same, he'd be sitting in a prison cell right now. Justice is different for the wealthy. It's not simply about power, money, and corruption, though those things might come into play in this case. It gets down to how people perceive others. Like it or not there is a perception that these things don't happen in "good" families. If JR was a dyrwall man and Patsy clerked at the 7-11 the evidence against them would have been far more convincing. The exact same evidence.

Middle class and working class people get away with murder all the time; just look at cases on here like Kyron, Haleigh, Hailey, Lisa or Isabel. However, the biggest differences between those cases and JonBenet's case is that JonBenet's body was found in the house, and LE had full access to the crime scene. With the other cases, the perpetrators(s) are free largely due to the child still being missing. Can you imagine if Baby Lisa's parents called 911, and then she was found murdered in the house? They would've been arrested on the spot.
 
Chrishope,

It probably does not fit very well at all.

Then again JonBenet was in a warm room, wrapped in a blanket, so onset may have been delayed somewhat?

The digestion of the pineapple limits the time-frame, but if the rigor can be accomodated, then Burke and JonBenet snacking prior to their flight, is a possibility.


.

I always went with a late night snack from a mother/grandmother point of view of kids not eating much at a party with things going on.

Then you have a young child's terrifying scream that the neighbor heard sometime after midnight. That points to at least the head bash being done around that same time.

Could JonBenet of been wearing a pull up under a size 12 pair of Bloomies and had an accident in them and Pasty went off on her? Could that of been one item taken out of the house and put in a neighbors trashcan and that could of been the sound heard of metal they heard?

Linda Hoffman-Pugh said that on the last day she was there, Monday December 23, (also the day she last changed the sheets) that Pasty and JonBenet had a fight over a blue dress that Pasty wanted her to wear for the party later that day. JonBenet relented and wore the dress Pasty had chosen. Could JonBenet of had an accident (maybe on purpose) and Pasty injured her cleaning her up that day and that could account for at least the previous bruising in her vagina?

I'm not sure when Pasty (sometimes I lean toward John) would of looped a cord around JB's neck and pulled it tight, but I think it was done in a cold blooded manner after they realized JB was still alive and there was no going back at that point.

What is a full pageant or body cleanse? Would that be an douche and a enema?

That could account for prior digital penetration.

Everything that was done to JonBenet was to mask/hide or point away from the family, really brought it right back to them. It does not point to anyone outside of the Ramsey family. No matter how hard they want it to.
 
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