The Springfield Three--missing since June 1992 - #5

Status
Not open for further replies.
This is a bit of a change of topic, but I was just reading on the AirAlex board (I've stopped posting over there because I got tired of all the BS), and was wondering if any of you who follow that conversation think that there is anything to the connection about several women going missing in the area at the time being hair dressers?

To be perfectly honest, it is remotely plausible but only for this reason. Sherrill had worked at the old Heer's Department Store on the mezzanine section which was like a 1/2 story to the 2nd story. One took it up via escalator. I went up there many times on break as I worked next door. I do know that Carnahan came into our office on many occasions; too many to count. He was always well groomed and seemingly non threatening. We had loose security in those days. I suppose it might be possible for him to have attached some interest in hair dressers beginning there. It's been a long time and I don't recall when Heer's closed. It was probably at or before the abductions.

I wouldn't rule it out, but I think it is a remote possibility only because these crimes haven't been solved. As I recall several other victims in the area were not hair dressers so we don't really know if these crimes were connected. By the same token, I recollect that Debbie Lewis and I also seem to remember that Stacy worked in fitness clubs. So perhaps there is some connection there although most do not believe that Stacy was the intended target. My personal opinion for what it is worth is that Debbie Lewis was probably a Carnahan victim but that is purely a guess. Something about that crime scene always struck me as his handiwork.

I think the possibility that there was a concerted effort to target hair dressers is not very great. I would not want to build a theory based on that kind of connection. Just my random thoughts.
 
....snip

Finally, given that the idea that some kind of van was involved in the abductions has been accepted pretty much universally, wouldn't someone at one of the parties mention that a group of guys in a van of similar description had been there and talking with Suzie?...(snip)

Just a quick thought regarding the van. While most believe a van was used not everyone believes that although I believe the preponderance of evidence is that one was used. I'll go on that assumption. My point here is that this is why I have stated on numerous occasions that a grand jury should be convened to get to the truth, if it is not already known, precisely what was known by the people last known to have seen the victims. After all, how many dozens of people saw the women at the Hanover address? Surely such a van would have been seen there, if anywhere. The other possibility is that it was nowhere to be seen but then according to what I have been told and I believe reliable, neighbors in the immediate area were not properly queried about the reported sighting of a similar van seen just prior to the abductions.

If it were up to me, and I certainly have no influence on the decision of the police, I would want to build this case from ground zero and round up every possible witness and get this story down tight as is possible. Even after two decades, there are still people who may have over the years remembered things which were not stated in the initial investigation. I think it is worth doing again, if for no other reason than to satisfy the public curiosity that ought not be ignored. We need to have confidence in the police departments to solve cases. There is too much bad blood between various factions to just let it fester. My additional $0.02 for today.
 
<modsnip> Do you really think the Nicole Brown/Ron Goldman double murder case is not solved? I know OJ was going to spend the rest of his life looking for the real killer, but he got side tracked by a few golf courses and 15 yrs in prison!

How about the muder of actor Robert Blake's wife?

How many hours a month do you suppose LE devotes to these "unsolved" cases? And I only pick these two cases because they are national celebrity cases. There are hundreds of missing person and homicide cases all across this country that are solved but not closed due to a lack of evidence to obtain a conviction.

Actually, both of those case did result in someone being held accountable and closure for the victim's families. Those cases were taken to a civil trial and wrongful death judgements were awarded in each case.

I understand what you are saying, but I have not read anywhere that LE has ever stated that they have a person or persons of interest and they have not named a suspect. They have also made statements that the three women's disappearance seemed as though they had been "raptured" (Vanished documentary trailer) and in an article they mention how baffled they are that maybe aliens abducted them (I am sure they weren't being serious and they mentioned these things to indicate their level of frustration). It just seems as though that it is more than a couple of missing pieces of evidence and those statements don't sound like they know who did it.

All I have to go on are the news articles, facts obtained here on WS and statements by LE and nothing indicates that they have solved this case. It is just my opinion. If they have solved it then they need to provide some kind of closure to the victim's families because it certainly doesn't seem like they feel as though this case is solved either.
 
Trooogrit: I must commend you on your theory. I was unaware of the arrangement of the back privacy fence. That would make sense. Do we know where the alleged footprint of Stacy was found? I had thought I was told it was on the front of the house. Offhand, do you know?

Would I be wrong in guessing that the "deviant" was likely one of the GJ3? That is the impression I gained from your post.
 
Trooogrit: I must commend you on your theory. I was unaware of the arrangement of the back privacy fence. That would make sense. Do we know where the alleged footprint of Stacy was found? I had thought I was told it was on the front of the house. Offhand, do you know?

Would I be wrong in guessing that the "deviant" was likely one of the GJ3? That is the impression I gained from your post.
If it is the same rumor I remember it being the back, but I do not know for sure. Of course I lean toward Garrison in this theory. It is just a different way of looking at it based on the little information known. I am not really of the thinking that the people at the parties were hardened enough to do something like this. I also do not think that 2 or 3 individuals would agree on something like this from the onset.
 
Actually, both of those case did result in someone being held accountable and closure for the victim's families. Those cases were taken to a civil trial and wrongful death judgements were awarded in each case.

I understand what you are saying, but I have not read anywhere that LE has ever stated that they have a person or persons of interest and they have not named a suspect. They have also made statements that the three women's disappearance seemed as though they had been "raptured" (Vanished documentary trailer) and in an article they mention how baffled they are that maybe aliens abducted them (I am sure they weren't being serious and they mentioned these things to indicate their level of frustration). It just seems as though that it is more than a couple of missing pieces of evidence and those statements don't sound like they know who did it.

All I have to go on are the news articles, facts obtained here on WS and statements by LE and nothing indicates that they have solved this case. It is just my opinion. If they have solved it then they need to provide some kind of closure to the victim's families because it certainly doesn't seem like they feel as though this case is solved either.

I'm glad that you feel that justice was served then, to the Brown and Goldman family. If they have any peace at all it's in knowing that OJ is locked away for 15 yrs and not in the $33,000,000.00 judgement they got in civil court and have only collected a pittance on if anything, and from knowing that the real killer is not running loose out there somewhere. I'm not familiar with Blake's civil suit but at his age I'm quite confident he is happy that he got away with murder and will probably die without paying out any of the monetary judgement against him.

As you say, you are looking at a limited amount of evidence made public in this case, most of it now 20 yrs old. I always find it humorous that posters on these many forums staunchly defend their right to constantly change their opinions and theories on this case but want to hold members of LE and the District Attorney to statements they might have made 20 yrs ago in frustration on day two of this investigation. To do that is to believe that their case has not developed or evolved at all, and I can tell you with certainty that is simply not true.
 
If it is the same rumor I remember it being the back, but I do not know for sure. Of course I lean toward Garrison in this theory. It is just a different way of looking at it based on the little information known. I am not really of the thinking that the people at the parties were hardened enough to do something like this. I also do not think that 2 or 3 individuals would agree on something like this from the onset.

I am sort of in your camp after sleeping on it. For the longest time I had thought since no forensic evidence was evidently found at the scene (in the house) tying any of these individuals to the crime (so far as we know), I had tended to rule them out. And the one thing that I always assumed was that entry was actually made into the house. It is possible that only a very limited entry was made; in fact, maybe not at all, if one of the girls went to her car, was grabbed and asked the other one to come out, the intruders might not even have gone inside. Sherrill could have followed out as well hearing the request to come outside. It may very well have been that there was no fear of anyone at that early morning hour and they simply let their guard down.

I agree about the possibility of Garrison with his known past history. We have the other possible suspects to deal with and this is where it breaks down for me. Do we have any idea where these other individuals are or even if they are alive today? If they ran with him they might have committed other crimes and simply be in prison and out of the public spotlight. The overriding issue is why no one has broken silence. Which, of course, is the reason I have leaned toward a single intruder. We also have the problem of the the van sighting and "Suzie" driving. If more than one person was involved, why would she be put in the driver's seat? Had she chose to do so she could have steered it into a telephone pole and potentially escaped and everything would have crashed down around the perp's necks.

But I do like your theory. If the crime took place largely outside the house, it would explain no prints or DNA being found. There are always other loose ends but reasonable people can agree to disagree or have differing scenarios that would arrive at the same end product.
 
Mule,
You are right, Porch Lady, if her sighting is credible, pretty well confirms only one perp. This is very critical evidence. Actually there is a lot of information that can be inferred from Porch Lady; type of vehicle, direction of travel, the "fact" that the perp knew Suzie enough to have her drive, and the "fact" that the perp didn't live in the Springfield area (no one recognized the van).

All of this hinges on the accuracy and overall honesty of Porch Lady. If she was wrong on key details, or, heaven forbid, making it all up, her information could be a major red herring that sent the whole investigation careening off in the wrong direction.
Eye witnesses must be handled carefully. All too often, investigators manipulate witnesses to confirm preexisting assumptions or pin them down to details they really are not that sure of.
 
I'm glad that you feel that justice was served then, to the Brown and Goldman family. If they have any peace at all it's in knowing that OJ is locked away for 15 yrs and not in the $33,000,000.00 judgement they got in civil court and have only collected a pittance on if anything, and from knowing that the real killer is not running loose out there somewhere. I'm not familiar with Blake's civil suit but at his age I'm quite confident he is happy that he got away with murder and will probably die without paying out any of the monetary judgement against him.

As you say, you are looking at a limited amount of evidence made public in this case, most of it now 20 yrs old. I always find it humorous that posters on these many forums staunchly defend their right to constantly change their opinions and theories on this case but want to hold members of LE and the District Attorney to statements they might have made 20 yrs ago in frustration on day two of this investigation. To do that is to believe that their case has not developed or evolved at all, and I can tell you with certainty that is simply not true.

Respectfully, I do not like it when someone puts words in my mouth and twists the things that I say in a way to make my words untrue.

I never said that justice was served. I said that someone was held accountable and the families had closure. I also never said that I believe that the case has not developed or evolved. I said that it isn't solved.

The two statements from LE that I quoted were made in 2009. Let's move on.
 
Mule,
You are right, Porch Lady, if her sighting is credible, pretty well confirms only one perp. This is very critical evidence. Actually there is a lot of information that can be inferred from Porch Lady; type of vehicle, direction of travel, the "fact" that the perp knew Suzie enough to have her drive, and the "fact" that the perp didn't live in the Springfield area (no one recognized the van).

All of this hinges on the accuracy and overall honesty of Porch Lady. If she was wrong on key details, or, heaven forbid, making it all up, her information could be a major red herring that sent the whole investigation careening off in the wrong direction.
Eye witnesses must be handled carefully. All too often, investigators manipulate witnesses to confirm preexisting assumptions or pin them down to details they really are not that sure of.

That's the sticking point with the "porch Lady's" account. It must almost certainly require just one perpetrator. It simply wouldn't have made any sense that I can see if Suzie were the driver to have more than one. I'm excerpting my own post from another website today so I don't have to retype it.....If we have multiple perps (say the GJ3), why was Suzie driving the vehicle? Wouldn't it have been more logical for one of them to have been driving? I have speculated that if she were allowed to drive she could have opted to simply have driven into or sideswiped a telephone post which would have ended the whole matter immediately. Why take the chance?

At least one officer was dubious of this account according to published reports. And I'm thinking that the "porch lady" didn't come forth until a week or more after the abductions. The story goes (as I was told by someone who claimed to be in attendance) that she was hypnotized to gain further information but became hysterical and the session cut short. The reason her account was deemed credible was that she (along with her husband, I believe) had (or did have) a used car dealership and readily could identify the make a model of the vehicle.

On the same note, have we discarded the recent information about the "yard sale lady" who claimed to have seen a similar van at approximately 4:30 AM but with a man driving? The time differential seems to be an insurmountable problem in that it is not reasonable to believe it was just cruising the neighborhood for nearly two hours. What I was told, and who can know for sure what is the truth, is that the police were not interested in her story
.

If the "porch lady" is not accurate, then I think that Trooogrit's suggested scenario has much to commend it.
 
Respectfully, I do not like it when someone puts words in my mouth and twists the things that I say in a way to make my words untrue.

I never said that justice was served. I said that someone was held accountable and the families had closure. I also never said that I believe that the case has not developed or evolved. I said that it isn't solved.

The two statements from LE that I quoted were made in 2009. Let's move on.

What started this discussion was the correlation between a case being solved but not closed due to the overall burden of proof in a court of law, and therefore the lack of justice being served.

You are right; it is time to move on. This will be my last post. Good luck with your investigation.
 
Trooogrit, Hurricane, Kathee, anyone!

Do you guys know of any males who had access to Sherill's house or had been invited over since she moved in to 1717 E Delmar?

Bartt?
Waterbed delivery guys?
Movers?
Ex boyfriends?
Suzie's boyfriends?
Lawn service? Did they mow their own lawn?
Handymen?
 
The scenario that the perp or perps never even went into the house kept me awake for most of the night because I do think this makes sense.

As I was tossing this around in my head, I decided that there were probably two guys involved and maybe it did happen the way it was suggested in post #562. I think it is possible that Suzie opened the door after hearing the glass break on the front porch and she was subdued either by force or by using a weapon. Could Stacy see from the open doorway of the bedroom to where the front door was (I have seen the pics, but they weren't where they used to be the last time I looked)? Anyway, if she could get a glimpse of what was happening from the bedroom (or could hear what was going on), I think this would have caused her to immediately escape out of the back door as it has been suggested. Of course, all of this commotion most definitely caused the Yorkie to bark like crazy. This in addition to also hearing the glass break may have made Sherrill jump out of bed, grab shoes as fast as she can so she can go outside to check on what is going on. I think there would need to have been two guys to get Suzie and to also catch Stacy after she ran outside. Sherrill, at this point, would not have to be forced into the van at all after knowing that her daughter is in there and in harm's way. A mother will do anything to protect her child.

My thoughts on the reason why Suzie was driving the van (if the porch lady sighting is true) is that the one perp was busy committing a crime in the van and the other one wasn't from the area and didn't know his way around town well enough to get on the interstate from that neighborhood. I think they might have chosen Suzie to be the driver because it was her neighborhood, but not Sherrill because she was older, wiser and clever enough to drive them to safety.

This is all just speculation, not fact.
 
The scenario that the perp or perps never even went into the house kept me awake for most of the night because I do think this makes sense.

As I was tossing this around in my head, I decided that there were probably two guys involved and maybe it did happen the way it was suggested in post #562. I think it is possible that Suzie opened the door after hearing the glass break on the front porch and she was subdued either by force or by using a weapon. Could Stacy see from the open doorway of the bedroom to where the front door was (I have seen the pics, but they weren't where they used to be the last time I looked)? Anyway, if she could get a glimpse of what was happening from the bedroom (or could hear what was going on), I think this would have caused her to immediately escape out of the back door as it has been suggested. Of course, all of this commotion most definitely caused the Yorkie to bark like crazy. This in addition to also hearing the glass break may have made Sherrill jump out of bed, grab shoes as fast as she can so she can go outside to check on what is going on. I think there would need to have been two guys to get Suzie and to also catch Stacy after she ran outside. Sherrill, at this point, would not have to be forced into the van at all after knowing that her daughter is in there and in harm's way. A mother will do anything to protect her child.

My thoughts on the reason why Suzie was driving the van (if the porch lady sighting is true) is that the one perp was busy committing a crime in the van and the other one wasn't from the area and didn't know his way around town well enough to get on the interstate from that neighborhood. I think they might have chosen Suzie to be the driver because it was her neighborhood, but not Sherrill because she was older, wiser and clever enough to drive them to safety.

This is all just speculation, not fact.

I think that is plausible, but let me suggest an alternate scenario.

Here is another possible way to gain access. The van was said to have been parked over on the corner of Kentwood and Delmar, right around the corner from the Levitt home. It has also been stated there was some unusual activity going on in the neighborhood that suggested possible burglary activity. It has been argued that Sherrill was the "target" but for reasons I have never understood.

Let's suppose that the burglars (or whoever) saw the girls drive up, park and go into the house. They carefully and quietly drove around the block across from the Levitt home and observed for about 1/2 hour until the lights were turned out. At this point, one of the (three?) suggested they have some "fun" and decided to get the women out of the house into their van. They had probably been drinking, talking up their exploits in and out of prison (if they were the GJ3), and the ringleader wants some "action." They pull the van up the driveway and park it, possibly backwards) and then run the engine or perhaps honk the horn. Suzie hears this thinking it is someone from the party and alerts her mother as she doesn't recognize the vehicle. Sherrill gets up, goes to the door and asks them what they want. One is standing to the side, grabs Sherrill, tries to muffle her but her cries are heard by Suzie who quickly gets out of bed and rushes to her mother's aid. She too is subdued. It is possible at this point where the globe is knocked loose. Stacy, hearing this going on becomes terrified and leaving the bed, clad only in her underpants, quietly opens the door on Suzie's bedroom and slides out the door and tries to escape from the rear of the house. One of the three sees her attempt, grabs her and drags her around to the front of the house where the women are being held. Stacy, being barefoot, cuts her foot, and struggles, plants her foot on the front of the house and leaves her blood/DNA. At this point all three are bundled off into the van. The door is left unlocked, the light left on, the purses left behind and the the TV on. At no time do any of the abductors enter the home. This makes it purely a sexual assault case. Tear it apart. Why wouldn't this work?
 
I think that is plausible, but let me suggest an alternate scenario.

Here is another possible way to gain access. The van was said to have been parked over on the corner of Kentwood and Delmar, right around the corner from the Levitt home. It has also been stated there was some unusual activity going on in the neighborhood that suggested possible burglary activity. It has been argued that Sherrill was the "target" but for reasons I have never understood.

Let's suppose that the burglars (or whoever) saw the girls drive up, park and go into the house. They carefully and quietly drove around the block across from the Levitt home and observed for about 1/2 hour until the lights were turned out. At this point, one of the (three?) suggested they have some "fun" and decided to get the women out of the house into their van. They had probably been drinking, talking up their exploits in and out of prison (if they were the GJ3), and the ringleader wants some "action." They pull the van up the driveway and park it, possibly backwards) and then run the engine or perhaps honk the horn. Suzie hears this thinking it is someone from the party and alerts her mother as she doesn't recognize the vehicle. Sherrill gets up, goes to the door and asks them what they want. One is standing to the side, grabs Sherrill, tries to muffle her but her cries are heard by Suzie who quickly gets out of bed and rushes to her mother's aid. She too is subdued. It is possible at this point where the globe is knocked loose. Stacy, hearing this going on becomes terrified and leaving the bed, clad only in her underpants, quietly opens the door on Suzie's bedroom and slides out the door and tries to escape from the rear of the house. One of the three sees her attempt, grabs her and drags her around to the front of the house where the women are being held. Stacy, being barefoot, cuts her foot, and struggles, plants her foot on the front of the house and leaves her blood/DNA. At this point all three are bundled off into the van. The door is left unlocked, the light left on, the purses left behind and the the TV on. At no time do any of the abductors enter the home. This makes it purely a sexual assault case. Tear it apart. Why wouldn't this work?

Yes, I think this works also. The only thing is that in this very thread I think I have read that the footprint was in the house going toward the front door. Then I read that the footprint was on the front of the house and then then I read that the footprint was at the back of the house. Maybe I am confusing the placement of this footprint and since it isn't in thread of the basic facts of the case, so I am not sure where this info came from.

If it is a rumor, I have been scolded a couple of times just for giving my opinion based on speculation, so I am not sure that I should even comment on the footprint. I am not sure what the rules are here for commenting on anything at this point.

Aside from that, I have wondered about the placement of the porch light. I have read that it was mounted above the mailbox, but I am unable to view the pics to see how high up it was compared to the height of Sherrill, Suzie and Stacy. If I recall, they were all petite women. Were any of them over 5 ft 4 inches tall? I am just wondering about the placement of the light fixture in comparison to their height and if a struggle on the front porch with any petite woman could cause the globe to be broken (I am only 5 feet tall myself so this is something that has really caught my attention).

I think this is why I keep thinking that the globe fell off when one of the men reached up to unscrew the lightbulb and the glass breaking alarmed the dog, the girls and Sherrill.

But it could have happened the other way too. However, the more I think about the perps never entering the home, the more it makes sense to me.

This is just speculation and not fact.
 
Yes, I think this works also. The only thing is that in this very thread I think I have read that the footprint was in the house going toward the front door. Then I read that the footprint was on the front of the house and then then I read that the footprint was at the back of the house. Maybe I am confusing the placement of this footprint and since it isn't in thread of the basic facts of the case, so I am not sure where this info came from.

If it is a rumor, I have been scolded a couple of times just for giving my opinion based on speculation, so I am not sure that I should even comment on the footprint. I am not sure what the rules are here for commenting on anything at this point.

Aside from that, I have wondered about the placement of the porch light. I have read that it was mounted above the mailbox, but I am unable to view the pics to see how high up it was compared to the height of Sherrill, Suzie and Stacy. If I recall, they were all petite women. Were any of them over 5 ft 4 inches tall? I am just wondering about the placement of the light fixture in comparison to their height and if a struggle on the front porch with any petite woman could cause the globe to be broken (I am only 5 feet tall myself so this is something that has really caught my attention).

I think this is why I keep thinking that the globe fell off when one of the men reached up to unscrew the lightbulb and the glass breaking alarmed the dog, the girls and Sherrill.

But it could have happened the other way too. However, the more I think about the perps never entering the home, the more it makes sense to me.

This is just speculation and not fact.

As you say, this is also speculation and not fact.

On the globe first, I THINK it would have fallen free of the lightbulb as it had a clearance of about 1/8 -1/4". That is to say, if it fell straight down it could have cleared the bulb without breaking it. As you know an incandescent bulb can be broken fairly easily and if the globe were at an angle I think the weight of the globe would likely have also broken the bulb. But that is purely a guess. I obtained what I believe is similar if not identical to what the globe was. I measured both and there was adequate clearance. One would place the closed end globe over the light fixture, and then tighten the thumb screws. Alternatively, if the bottom was open then it wouldn't have been necessary to have remove the globe to replace the bulb. With the closed end it would have been. If the bottom was open then it would have been almost impossible for the globe to have fallen free of the bulb, even if it had been rendered inoperable. That might support the theory that the globe was broken on purpose in order to get someone to come to the door. I tend to doubt that, however.

If I were the police I would have wanted to have tried to simulate how the globe would break even if they didn't see the original pieces in place on the porch. That would explain why they believed it would have been helpful to have seen the pieces before being picked up. I do believe they actually have the pieces but because the crime scene was disturbed it didn't tell them anything. I would guess there was no blood evidence indicating anything other than Stacy stepping on a piece which left the DNA evidence indicating this is where she was captured.

I say all this long winded explanation to further explain. If her footprint was on the rear of the house how would they have identified it? Did they have her footprints on file somewhere? I doubt it. And if there was DNA evidence that was used, how would she have cut her foot? Was there some evidence of a struggle in the back and she cut her foot there? We don't know. But if there was a struggle, then they knew where she was captured if on the back of the house.

If she saw the abductor on the rear of the house she probably ran quickly to the front. Photos show that there was clearance between Sherrill's car and the house which would have left adequate room. We don't know the placement of the van but the driveway indicates about two feet of clearance so she should have been able to run to the front of the property and onto the street except, as has been postulated, the van was backed up to the rear of Sherrill's van and the van door prevented her. She probably pushed it aside and jumped up on the porch and it was somewhere there that the globe fell and broke or it could already have been broken. She was grabbed. She lashed out in all directions and her foot, bleeding, brushed the side the house leaving a small trace of blood on the front which was later recovered. I cannot see how a bare footprint would have left anything of value.

Having said all of this, I don't even know if this account is remotely true. I have been told by someone who I no longer have contact with that her footprint was found on the front of the house. I think it was because this person who is not from the area had someone they trusted to look into this case and this information came forward. In any event it was stated as a fact. It may like the bogus report of the convenience store be nothing of any consequence. But taken in its totality, it would make sense. Both Sherrill and Suzie taken from the front of the house, subdued and defenseless; Stacy hearing this, fearing for her life, flees from the side and to the rear, is confronted and runs to the front, is blocked by the van door, jumps up on the porch where a struggle ensues and evidence of this left on the front of the house.

That is my best guess of what MIGHT have happened if such a footprint actually existed. Otherwise, this is speculation amounting to nothing.

The reason I find this scenario the most compelling is if there was no evidence found within the home but only the DNA evidence linking only the known friends and relatives to that home, we would have to believe that the perps committed the perfect crime or alternatively one of the 18-20 people in the house. (an unlikely scenario) Yet, we know they left five specific items undone. There is an obvious conflict here. If up to three people (such as the GJ3) did this, it seems more likely to me that time was of the essence and all rationality went out the window. I do not see adequate time to have scrubbed the house down of all prints and DNA material yet leave these other matters unfinished; not the least of which was leaving all the money and purses behind. So, in essence, I would say it would almost of necessity have had to have taken place outside the residence. Then we have no loose ends that I can see.

Pardon my verbosity but I wanted to be crystal clear where I am coming from and why I reached these conclusions. I have no information on the height of the light bulb. I do believe that a struggle could account for this regardless.
 
Re-posting this until I get it answered:


Trooogrit, Hurricane, Kathee, anyone!

Do you guys know of any males who had access to Sherill's house or had been invited over since she moved in to 1717 E Delmar?

Bartt?
Waterbed delivery guys?
Movers?
Ex boyfriends?
Suzie's boyfriends?
Lawn service? Did they mow their own lawn?
Handymen?
 
A few points:
1) We know that there was no sign of forced entry but do we (sleuthers) know if any means of entry to the house (doors, windows etc) were unlocked other than the front door? I would assume that if any means of entry or exit were used during the "event", no effort would have been made to lock it again. I would think that if the front door was the only means of entry that was unlocked the next day that would have been the only one used. The Case File would certainly have this information.

2) My understanding is that the "globe" was broken but the light bulb was still intact and was "on" the next morning. What we do not know (because the glass had been cleaned up) is whether it had been broken by someone trying to get at the light bulb to turn if off by unscrewing it or if it was broken during a struggle or by someone carrying something out of the house.

3) There have been several references to a bare footprint, believed to be Stacy&#8217;s that either was in the living room pointing towards the front door or the porch pointing away from the door. (I believe the former but I may be wrong). Either way, the significance of it was that it seemed to indicate that Stacy left the house through the front door on her own volition while barefoot. I am not aware that there was any evidence that she had cut her foot on glass from the light.

4) I am not aware that any DNA was ever tested. At the time (1992) only bodily fluid type samples would have been used. Apparently there were no suspicious fingerprints but we don&#8217;t know what they found. If there were lots of useable prints but none belong to any "unknowns". It would suggest that the perps spent very little time there while evidence of selective "wiping" would tell us something else again. It is possible that so many people in and out during the day hopelessly corrupted the scene.

5) Any serious struggle between three woman and one or more men would leave some sort of evidence. (Whether it was inside the house or outside) The fact that there was no indication of any struggle suggests that the perp(s) was able to establish control very quickly and easily. This would suggest confidence, planning or criminal sophistication and very likely a firearm. (I suppose any "mess" could have been cleaned up, but why?)

If anyone can correct or elaborate on the above, please do. We all need to get our facts straight.
 
A few points:
1) We know that there was no sign of forced entry but do we (sleuthers) know if any means of entry to the house (doors, windows etc) were unlocked other than the front door? I would assume that if any means of entry or exit were used during the "event", no effort would have been made to lock it again. I would think that if the front door was the only means of entry that was unlocked the next day that would have been the only one used. The Case File would certainly have this information.

2) My understanding is that the "globe" was broken but the light bulb was still intact and was "on" the next morning. What we do not know (because the glass had been cleaned up) is whether it had been broken by someone trying to get at the light bulb to turn if off by unscrewing it or if it was broken during a struggle or by someone carrying something out of the house.

3) There have been several references to a bare footprint, believed to be Stacy&#8217;s that either was in the living room pointing towards the front door or the porch pointing away from the door. (I believe the former but I may be wrong). Either way, the significance of it was that it seemed to indicate that Stacy left the house through the front door on her own volition while barefoot. I am not aware that there was any evidence that she had cut her foot on glass from the light.

4) I am not aware that any DNA was ever tested. At the time (1992) only bodily fluid type samples would have been used. Apparently there were no suspicious fingerprints but we don&#8217;t know what they found. If there were lots of useable prints but none belong to any "unknowns". It would suggest that the perps spent very little time there while evidence of selective "wiping" would tell us something else again. It is possible that so many people in and out during the day hopelessly corrupted the scene.

5) Any serious struggle between three woman and one or more men would leave some sort of evidence. (Whether it was inside the house or outside) The fact that there was no indication of any struggle suggests that the perp(s) was able to establish control very quickly and easily. This would suggest confidence, planning or criminal sophistication and very likely a firearm. (I suppose any "mess" could have been cleaned up, but why?)

If anyone can correct or elaborate on the above, please do. We all need to get our facts straight.

I will comment on one aspect of your post. If the intruders got inside the house, they had to have had contact with the door jams, the windows, house, something that would have left evidence behind. Now it is possible that they were wearing gloves or were so careful that they scrubbed everything clean of forensic evidence. That's entirely possible but unlikely in my view for one simple fact. They left all the other important things undone. I think we are looking at more luck than planning and believe me I have had to do a 180 on this myself. I have always been concerned that nothing could be found in that house to link to anyone other than the known people who were in there that day. As I have said, no credible argument could possibly be made why any DNA or other forensic evidence would be in that house by such people as the GJ3, Cox, Carnahan or any other possible suspect.

So in essence, we are left with two possibilities in my opinion. We are left to wonder if any of the 18-20 people known to be in the house were involved or someone unknown to the women committed the crime outside the house where it would be nearly impossible to find DNA or other forensic evidence in view of the fact the porch was cleaned. Even if prints were found on any of the cars these unknown people could not possibly explain what they were doing there. I now deduce that everything that took place happened entirely outside the house. And there are no loose ends. All that is required is to get just one of the women to open the door and be grabbed, which brings the second victim (Suzie or Sherrill) outside and then Stacy leaving via the back way. Is it reasonable to believe she came to the front door clad only in her underpants knowing all the while that both Suzie and Sherrill were in great peril and put herself in danger? If I were in her shoes I would have wanted out of that house as quickly and as quietly as possible. BTW, if she went out the side door, perhaps she left the lock in the locked position and it was locked when the house was found. Do we even know if any of the people on the scene opened and closed that door? I don't think we can conclude she had to have gone out the front door. I think that is an unknowable unknown without seeing the actual interviews and polygraphs of the people to the house. I think it would be pure speculation.

Even if the footprint is a figment of someone's imagination, it still works. The globe could have been broken any number of ways. I now see why it was deemed important that the police to have seen it where it fell. I used to believe that was a tempest in a teapot but now see it as potentially critical and could have steered the investigation where it should have gone much earlier on. It also does not get the grave robbers off the hook if someone further up the food chain had a vested interest in keeping Suzie off the witness stand.

P.S. We have never been told if the side entrance was open or locked. I stand to be corrected.
 
Has it ever been established if Carnahan was one of Sherrils's hair clients. If not him maybe a family member of his that he took there or picked up. Did either of the girls have a part time job in the summer or evening or weekends thru the school year?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
216
Guests online
3,490
Total visitors
3,706

Forum statistics

Threads
591,740
Messages
17,958,213
Members
228,597
Latest member
Petoskey
Back
Top