NO BAIL! Australia - Allison Baden-Clay, Brisbane QLD, 19 April 2012 -#29

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HeartRuledHead said:
Thank you, I think it will be hard for me to contribute and not be defensive of TM, i have now been told twice that is not what this thread is about.

She isn't just a snap shot of a face on the news of a woman who had an affair with a married man accused of killing his wife, to me.


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I think all of us on here are able to understand that she is more to you than to most of us.

There are many people on here that knew Allison personally, and have shared with us on the forum the heart wrenching grief that they are experiencing, yet still are aware that this must be so much harder for the children and the Dickies.

We love to have your input, at the same time, it will be hard for many to see TM as anything different than what has been expressed in the last few pages.

IMO

All IMO
 
Keentoknow said:
I would prefer to see these people on remand than let all these so call innocent people walk the streets at night while you sleep.

Maybe you should spend a day in a remand centre.

I have spent 22 years in high security prisons and my mind has not changed.
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Yes agreed, imagine if he was guilty of murdering his wife and was free. That would be far worse IMO.
 
HeartRuledHead said:
Thank you, I think it will be hard for me to contribute and not be defensive of TM, i have now been told twice that is not what this thread is about.

She isn't just a snap shot of a face on the news of a woman who had an affair with a married man accused of killing his wife, to me.


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*calm now*
If you want to defend TM - all well and good.
If you have info that you feel is pertinent to this case - AWESOME !!
But understand that many of the bloggers on this site are sympathetic to Allisons plight and feel a strong urge to defend her and some like I will stand and fight for her.
IMO very few people will have sympathy for people involved in an affair nor for the reasons for the affair itself.


IMO
JMO
MOO
 
Opinionsgalore said:
My dander is up now, and rather than run the risk of being placed in 'time out', I will close off by re-iterating that these threads are for the victim - Allison Baden-Clay.


IMO
JMO
MOO
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Actually these threads are to discuss the crime.
I tend to ignore posts I disagree with but I have become disenchanted with the amount of venom fellow Aussies will throw at each other if someone has a different view. You can't get to the bottom of anything unless you look at every angle.

This was an interesting thread to follow at the start but getting to exclusive now, so I will say goodbye to all, thanks for the insights and giggles.

Not aimed at the poster quoted just a general observation.
 
it would be very difficult to fake the level of mental illness or incapacity needed to trigger the insanity or diminished responsibility provisions of the criminal code. But then again, the diagnosis of mental illness is notoriously inconsistent. A numgber of meta anlalyses show that the chances of a correct forensic psychiatric diagnosis are about the same as corectly guesing the flip of a coin. If a person kills another and then wants to provide for the possibility of having a murder indictment reduced to manslaughter, by reason of dininsihed responsibility, they would need to establish that the mental incapacity was operating at the time of the impugned act (the killing). The strongest evidence of that is usually a diagnosis which occurs very soon after the act in question. Although you need a referral to a private psychiatrist, rather than one which is court appointed, such a referral can be obtained (and an appointment) very quickly in some circumstances. Although there will eventually be a referral of the question of diminshed responsibility to the Mental Health Court, evidence from a psychiatrist who examined the accused very soon after event will usually carry significant weight. If the finding from that psychiatrist is that the accused was in an obvious state of stress, but that there is insufficient evidence of a deprivation of the requisite capacities, then the accused has lost nothing as a result. All MOO.
 
HeartRuledHead said:
Thank you, I think it will be hard for me to contribute and not be defensive of TM, i have now been told twice that is not what this thread is about.

She isn't just a snap shot of a face on the news of a woman who had an affair with a married man accused of killing his wife, to me.


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I have no doubt that she is HRH....when people we care about are caught up in bad stuff....it is a very hard road for us, I've had experience of caring/loving someone who did the wrong thing, I've sat on a bus and overheard people gossiping about this person, they knew only what they had read in the papers (no internet forums back then) having forums and everything discussed on this scale must be so much harder to have to look at.

But on the other hand......there are posters on here that were close to ABC, how bloody hard must it be for them to see every detail hashed out here?????

there are just no winners here is there :mad:
 
mouse detective said:
Hopefully I am not repeating something another poster has written but thought I should clarify something about phone tracking

Firstly I think it is important to distinguish between GPS tracking and GSM tracking

GPS transmitting signals come from the phone itself and are very accurate at pinpointing a phone's location. This tracking feature can be turned on or off at the handset for a range of applications such as Facebook for their check-in feature, GPS/Tom Tom and find my iPhone.

If this feature is turned off, the way the police can roughly detect where a phone is located is by working out which GSM cells (i.e.transmitter/receivers within the Telco network) it is connected to. This is done via a triangulating technique. Because mobiles are in motion they are connected to an "active" GSM cell but also have "roaming" cell connections in readiness for cell changeover. Generally phones will connect to the GSM cell with the strongest signal - this is not necessarily the closest GSM cell to the phone. The hot zone would indicate most likely place for that phone to be located but may be in a slightly larger radius if the transmission from it's nearest GSM cell was weaker than from a GSM cell further away.

The tests may have indicated that in the area where the BC home is located the strongest signal comes from the cell that mainly caters for users in the hot zone - hence why they believe the phone may still be located within 150m of the home. Hope this helps
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Thanks Mouse. Does that feature still work if the phone is in Airplane mode or turned off? I was under the impression that it wouldn't.
 
Woof said:
Thanks Mouse. Does that feature still work if the phone is in Airplane mode or turned off? I was under the impression that it wouldn't.
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I doubt it. I wonder however if the carriers can detect which cell the phone was last linked to even if a call has not been made from it.
 
Hawkins said:
it would be very difficult to fake the level of mental illness or incapacity needed to trigger the insanity or diminished responsibility provisions of the criminal code. But then again, the diagnosis of mental illness is notoriously inconsistent. A numgber of meta anlalyses show that the chances of a correct forensic psychiatric diagnosis are about the same as corectly guesing the flip of a coin. If a person kills another and then wants to provide for the possibility of having a murder indictment reduced to manslaughter, by reason of dininsihed responsibility, they would need to establish that the mental incapacity was operating at the time of the impugned act (the killing). The strongest evidence of that is usually a diagnosis which occurs very soon after the act in question. Although you need a referral to a private psychiatrist, rather than one which is court appointed, such a referral can be obtained (and an appointment) very quickly in some circumstances. Although there will eventually be a referral of the question of diminshed responsibility to the Mental Health Court, evidence from a psychiatrist who examined the accused very soon after event will usually carry significant weight. If the finding from that psychiatrist is that the accused was in an obvious state of stress, but that there is insufficient evidence of a deprivation of the requisite capacities, then the accused has lost nothing as a result. All MOO.
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So Hawkins - do you think in addition to getting a lawyer on day 1, GBC found himself a psychiatrist?

Does anyone know if Arthur Gorrie have a psychiatric unit?
 
Aunty said:
If GBC threw her iphone into bushes or a creek, around what he will describe later as her usual walking route, he probably accessed it remotely , later , to disable it and all of its contents. He would want to ensure that no one ever finds out the incriminating information it contains.
It's easy to wipe its contents and disable it from being located.
He knows he can do this just by logging into her iPhone app " find iPhone "
He is now very confident that no one will ever get information off it remotely,

But, just in case it is suspected and proven that he accessed this app and could do this, he sends a text to ABC saying specifically " app not working" because to know this, he has to access the app in the first place.

This text is so obvious. It's his excuse for accessing her iPhone remotely. To find her. Good cover.
I suspect they later told him it was traced to around the house to watch his reaction to this information and hopefully catch him if he checks it or tries to move it, if he did still have it hidden somewhere.
Click to expand...

If the phone was cleared remotely, would that show on iTunes or iCloud ?


IMO
JMO
MOO
 
Keentoknow said:
I would prefer to see these people on remand than let all these so call innocent people walk the streets at night while you sleep.

Maybe you should spend a day in a remand centre.

I have spent 22 years in high security prisons and my mind has not changed.
Click to expand...

Having done a few visits to the local reception prison, I agree with KtK. Judges and Magistrates don't remand accused people into custody without due cause. Every accused person, in my state at least, is brought before a Magistrate at the earliest possible opportunity to have the bail issue decided.

Quite often MSM are up in arms that bail has been granted to easily. Judges seem to be damned if they do and damned if they don't.

The oft quoted "presumption of innocence" needs to be balanced against the risk posed by an accused perverting the course of justice by interfering with witnesses, failing to appear, tampering with evidence etc. The more serious the crime, the greater the risk that an accused will be tempted to do some or all of these things.

IMO none of this excuses the appalling delays in dealing with offences in some jurisdictions. This has nothing to do with the Judiciary and everything to do with the various governments who are happy have people on remand for extended periods of time.
 
Aunty said:
It's easy to wipe its contents and disable it from being located.
He knows he can do this just by logging into her iPhone app " find iPhone "
He is now very confident that no one will ever get information off it remotely,

But, just in case it is suspected and proven that he accessed this app and could do this, he sends a text to ABC saying specifically " app not working" because to know this, he has to access the app in the first place.

This text is so obvious. It's his excuse for accessing her iPhone remotely. To find her. Good cover.
Click to expand...

Aunty, this is very astute of you! I hope QPS have explored that avenue. I personally believe this is exactly what happened to Allison's phone.
 
Opinionsgalore said:
*calm now*
If you want to defend TM - all well and good.
If you have info that you feel is pertinent to this case - AWESOME !!
But understand that many of the bloggers on this site are sympathetic to Allisons plight and feel a strong urge to defend her and some like I will stand and fight for her.
IMO very few people will have sympathy for people involved in an affair nor for the reasons for the affair itself.


IMO
JMO
MOO
Click to expand...

I am calm. :)

I certainly to have sympathy for Allison's poor family. I can only imagine how heart broken they are and how shattered their lives now are.

I mean no disrespect to Allison's memory nor her family by standing on support of TM's innocence in Allison's murder.

I wasn't defending the affair, just saying simply and truly that they happen. It's a regrettable fact of life.

I am saying allowing your heart to rule your head is a question of morals but it does not make you a criminally minded person who could be responsible or even support someone else who commits murder. As some have indicated in this thread.

I do not believe for one moment that TM had any idea that GBC would ever be capable of such a awful act.


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HeartRuledHead said:
I strongly disagree. Having a love affair with a man who married or not does not hold you responsible for his thoughts or actions.

Again, so easy to judge.



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mouse detective said:
:fence:

I am sorry H2H but I cannot agree with you about Toni McHugh being a victim. Judging by what has been written in the MSM, she made a conscious decision to stay employed for more than 3 years in a business that was not only owned by her lover Gerard, but by his wife Allison. I am sure in addition to his attention, she willingly accepted all the financial benefits and accolades that she gleaned from her boss's preferential treatment of her.

How devastating would it have been for Allison to discover how long this inappropriate behaviour had been taking place between her husband and one of their "C21 Family Members"

How much financial devastation did their affair cause the B.C.'s business I wonder? I am sure it would have resulted in a number of unhappy staff leaving the Company. I suppose TM thought she was a victim when she lost her job too.

I am sure that to discover your lover has possibly murdered someone is a shock, especially if you end up being a key witness for the prosecution. It would be the same for anyone who is close to a murderer whether it be their wife, mother, daughter, sister or girlfriend or male counterparts - that is just the cards life deals us sometimes.

In my view TM may mostly feel she is a victim is because her "professional image" has been tarnished, because her clandestine affair with a married man has been so publicly exposed.

She would be wise to turn this spotlight on her around and make some public statements about her regret about having the affair with a married man and the lessons she has learned and not dwell too much on the fact her married man may be a murderer.

If I were her, I would consider calling Harry M Miller!
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I agree... totally. TM should publicly apologise to all involved for her part of this horrible mess. Admit fault in having the affair. Share her lesson learnt so maybe other women might think before jumping in the sack with married men. Become an example of how 'not' to do it.

I just feel so sorry for Allison 'knowing' about TM and wondering "Did 'she' ever say she felt bad because he was married?" (as she put in her journal) it must have broken her poor heart and she must have spent many hours crying alone where her girls couldn't see her.

I'm sorry if this offends anyone but I have no sympathy for TM.
 
HeartRuledHead said:
I have spent days reading through these forums.

First and foremost I am devastated for the three girls who lost their mother at the hands of presumably their own father.

My thoughts are with Allison's family. I hope they find the strength they need to try and work through this unforgivable crime!

---
Do you all think Allison knew what he was capable of? Of course not! So tell me... How could Toni?

Most people in life like to see the best in people, especially people we love. I am bemused at the fingers that have been pointed at Toni who is a victim here!

She foolishly fell in love with a married man, sadly it happens every day. The heart wants what it wants and sometimes it rules the head.

It frustrates me to read comments like "she shouldn't have 'gone after' a married man" how do know that she was not the one pursued - he was her boss, he had the position of power. Him sleazing on to her seems more plausible given cassinova was juggling a wife and 3 lovers!

It frustrates me that people say she "demanded" that he leave his wife. When? Just because he e-mailed her saying he made her a commitment to leave his wife by a certain date doesn't mean she demanded it - it seems more likely that she was sick of sneaking around and was going to put an end to it and he encouraged her to keep up the affair promising that he will leave his wife. It's a story been told thousands of times before!

It frustrates me that people comment on her appearance as if the affair would be more acceptable if the photos of her released by the media were more flattering it would some how be ok? She is absolutely beautiful in person.

No one but she knows why she fell in love with a married man - most of make mistakes of the heart but that doesn't mean she had any idea it would end this way.

She is a victim. Her life will never be the same again. She could have been the one who was killed if he could work out away to cash in on her demise!

He is a gutless man fuelled by greed! He preys on people to take advantage of. Toni is just one more on a long list of people who is hurting due to the actions of this spineless snake!
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Hi HeartRuledHead

I think a lot of the reason many may come across as so vicious and angry towards TM, is the length of the affair. It's not like it was a short fling (not suggesting at all that that would be acceptable either), but 3 -4 years is a long time and then for the affair to end, only to resume again so soon after. Also, she must have known Allison, and worked with her for at least some of those years. Did she not have any respect for Allison? Unfortunately it appears she put her own selfish wants and needs above all else.

Maybe TM really did love Gerard, and maybe she really thought he would leave Allison for her, but he didn't. Why didn't Toni walk away much much earlier?

I am sure it was probably Gerard who pursued TM, but she did always have a choice to say no. I also can't understand why you'd even want to be with someone who was so deceitful that he would string his wife along for 3 years plus.

I'm sure Toni wasn't his first infidelity, and obviously not his last. Quite possibly there are plenty more than the other 2 supposed mistresses.

While I don't believe she is responsible for Allison's death, she obviously played a big part in Allison's misery prior to her death.

I think it's highly likely that Gerard would have done the evil deed, regardless of whether he was still seeing TM, even if he'd never met her. I also doubt whether Gerard ever had any real intentions of 'officially' being with Toni. If he had have felt so strongly for her, wouldn't he have left Allison sooner? I reckon TM was probably just another big use for him, she was serving some purpose, much of that probably financial.

I agree with you in that I don't think people should poke holes in Toni's appearance (or his other family members for that matter). It's not even vaguely relevant.

All MOO
 
BrissyLass said:
I have no doubt that she is HRH....when people we care about are caught up in bad stuff....it is a very hard road for us, I've had experience of caring/loving someone who did the wrong thing, I've sat on a bus and overheard people gossiping about this person, they knew only what they had read in the papers (no internet forums back then) having forums and everything discussed on this scale must be so much harder to have to look at.

But on the other hand......there are posters on here that were close to ABC, how bloody hard must it be for them to see every detail hashed out here?????

there are just no winners here is there :mad:
Click to expand...

You are right there are no winners. Its a god awful situation. I'm so sad that a woman has lost her life and three children have lost their mother.

As mother myself, my heart is broken that Allison is deprived the joy of watching them grow.




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HeartRuledHead said:
Perhaps it was a work obligation that Toni could not get of.


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She just had to call in sick.

(IMO) She seemed so comfortable with the idea of being in such close proximity with her lover's wife. Even pushing her lover to make sure that his wife would know is brazen and entitled. Really, would it make much difference whether she found out the night before or at the conference?

TM would know that GBC informing Allison the night before would surely have resulted in a bad scene. Also, Allison would probably question how GBC knew that TM was attending the conference - afterall they weren't supposed to be lovers anymore.
 
Hey all - Allisons birthday is only a few days away - any suggestions on what we could do to make it a remember Allison kind of respect thing?

Put a sunflower in our signature for 24 hours or make our signature yellow? Just something to remember her day at this time where things are truly just starting to emerge about how difficult it was for her and to remember her legacy of the 3 girls? Gosh hope this is allowed?
 
Many years ago, this nice man flirted with me at an event. I was flattered and attracted. Then someone told me he was married. I asked him if he was and he said yes. I left immediately and never saw him again. People have a choice. Married men are off the market. IMO there is no questioning that. TM knew GBC was married. She made the wrong choice.
 
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