WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #3

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Mr...45,

A few days ago I asked about light patterns and you posted a pic of overflying Seattle in 1935 (I think). It really didn't answer the question for me. What I'm wondering about is if Vancouver and Portland look like they would have then (if you have that date set in, and assuming the weather is clear). The FBI flightpath map shows what the light patterns looked like then. You'd have to turn it upside down and look from a low angle to get an idea what it would have looked like when approaching from the north. Could you post a pic for a clear night from about Merwin?
 
hominid said:
Mr...45,

A few days ago I asked about light patterns and you posted a pic of overflying Seattle in 1935 (I think). It really didn't answer the question for me. What I'm wondering about is if Vancouver and Portland look like they would have then (if you have that date set in, and assuming the weather is clear). The FBI flightpath map shows what the light patterns looked like then. You'd have to turn it upside down and look from a low angle to get an idea what it would have looked like when approaching from the north. Could you post a pic for a clear night from about Merwin?
Click to expand...

sadly the answer is no, I think it would be to much on them to change each year mapping wise, however there was a big change when I upgraded to the Ultimate Terrain, this can be shut off and use the default system but still probably goes by 2003 mapping.

that is another question I will ask them because since you can change the weather, why would you put a function in that only changes the date and not it's surrounding but as mentioned I think it would cause the cost to sky rocket.

I'm sure the sky was not even close to being lit up as today, I remember as a kid a lot of places closed by 8:00 and lights were out, no fear like today. I have a satellite photo from that time period and then today and could post If you want me too?
 
I am going to study the transcripts as much as I can and find out ever possible move we can put into play and present a flight plan for you guys to tear apart once I put it on here :blushing:

once we all agree on how to run this in real time, then we can proceed with actual flights.

I would love to be able to put two monitors on the system and have someone with me taking notes as we fly, fuel consumption, and mapping, it's seems to be a little to much for me to fly and control a uncontrolled plane watching the altitude and speed is a task in itself, let alone click off the screen and check the fuel.

I have learned a lot with this in understanding the plane, the reason for the amount of Pilot's etc etc.

I take the pic right now, be back in a while
 
I'm sure the sky was not even close to being lit up as today, I remember as a kid a lot of places closed by 8:00 and lights were out, no fear like today. I have a satellite photo from that time period and then today and could post If you want me too?[/quote]

Yes please post any satellite photos from the period.
 
By rotating and cropping the FBI flightpath map, squeezing it down vertically, and adding perspective, this is sort of like the cities would have looked when approaching from the north on a clear night. Oh, yeah. The gold color represents the city lights.
 

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MrShutter45 said:
...once we all agree on how to run this in real time, then we can proceed with actual flights.

I would love to be able to put two monitors on the system and have someone with me taking notes as we fly, fuel consumption, and mapping, it's seems to be a little to much for me to fly and control a uncontrolled plane watching the altitude and speed is a task in itself, let alone click off the screen and check the fuel.
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Please don't say you won't fly unless everyone agrees:).

Does your plane have a PAUSE button?
 
hominid said:
Please don't say you won't fly unless everyone agrees:).

Does your plane have a PAUSE button?
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yes it has a pause, I just hope that will work with the time breaks, haven't checked yet.

also has a flight time clock, so I guess it would be ok to do that.

as for the flying, I was referring to us all coming to the same conclusions as to the correct path, time, weather and altitude adjustments etc etc so this can be the best possible scenario we can do :woohoo:
 
MrShutter45 said:
...as for the flying, I was referring to us all coming to the same conclusions as to the correct path, time, weather and altitude adjustments etc etc so this can be the best possible scenario we can do :woohoo:
Click to expand...

Someone else might like to see a different scenario, but I would like to see an attempt to fly the path shown in the FBI flightpath map and matching everything possible to records of what the conditions were at the time (comm transcript, NWA incident report, av weather reports, NWS weather info from Weather Underground). Maybe it will be enough of a kick for you that you could try some other scenario too if someone wants?
 
hominid said:
Someone else might like to see a different scenario, but I would like to see an attempt to fly the path shown in the FBI flightpath map and matching everything possible to records of what the conditions were at the time (comm transcript, NWA incident report, av weather reports, NWS weather info from Weather Underground). Maybe it will be enough of a kick for you that you could try some other scenario too if someone wants?
Click to expand...

Correct, I would like to recreate the version on the map and from there I could try different approaches and see if any new things arise, but the first step would be to recreate to the best of our ability matching the map.
 
out of nowhere I decided to take a flight and check the fuel, now, I didn't set up the sim correctly with the weather but here is what I did.

I flew on V23 at the correct altitudes and speed and got these numbers, I flew for 15 minutes with two sets of numbers. (fuel reads 10,003 29,500 10,003 for a total of 49,506 lbs

at 12 minutes into the flight I had a fuel reading of 8853 28,350 8853 with 3450 lbs burned.
at the 15 minute mark it read 8377 27,808 8377 with 4944 lbs burned.

this would simulate a 7:33 take off and a 7:36 take off.

Radio Transcript / NWA Transcript
7:42 ......305 out SEA 14 miles 7:40....14 DME S SEA VOR at 7000'
gear down flaps extended 30 degress

tried to separate numbers, didn't work on the last part :blushing:
 
MrShutter45 said:
...I flew on V23 at the correct altitudes and speed and got these numbers, I flew for 15 minutes with two sets of numbers. (fuel reads 10,003 29,500 10,003 for a total of 49,506 lbs

at 12 minutes into the flight I had a fuel reading of 8853 28,350 8853 with 3450 lbs burned.
at the 15 minute mark it read 8377 27,808 8377 with 4944 lbs burned.

this would simulate a 7:33 take off and a 7:36 take off.

Radio Transcript / NWA Transcript
7:42 ......305 out SEA 14 miles 7:40....14 DME S SEA VOR at 7000' gear down flaps extended 30°
Click to expand...

The 12 minute burn is barely in the ballpark of what the flight reported. 5750lbs/hr/engine where they reported 4500. But the last three minutes seemed to have burned an inordinate amount. Just that last 3 minutes would be 9960 lb/hr/engine. More than 2x what they reported. Seems odd the last 3 minutes would burn so much more. When you flew this, did you have much load other than fuel?

Your giving the logged comm. re distance and the NWA report info re. distance highlights something significant about the NWA report. It appears at least for the short series of events that were logged at 7:42 on the comm transcript that NWA separated them to a close sequence of times separated by 1 minute each, and in the same sequence. The times on the comm transcript were the times entered automatically when the send key was pressed, not the times when the individual lines were keyed in. It is odd that the report statement for 7:43 was part of the logged comm for 7:42.
 
hominid said:
The 12 minute burn is barely in the ballpark of what the flight reported. 5750lbs/hr/engine where they reported 4500. But the last three minutes seemed to have burned an inordinate amount. Just that last 3 minutes would be 9960 lb/hr/engine. More than 2x what they reported. Seems odd the last 3 minutes would burn so much more. When you flew this, did you have much load other than fuel?

Your giving the logged comm. re distance and the NWA report info re. distance highlights something significant about the NWA report. It appears at least for the short series of events that were logged at 7:42 on the comm transcript that NWA separated them to a close sequence of times separated by 1 minute each, and in the same sequence. The times on the comm transcript were the times entered automatically when the send key was pressed, not the times when the individual lines were keyed in. It is odd that the report statement for 7:43 was part of the logged comm for 7:42.
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I have 3 pilots on board and two passengers (HJ Tina) no luggage and a full tank, past the 12 minute mark I went to 30 degrees and climbed to 10,000, forgot to mention that.

I just got done running several gear test's and the plane pitches upward and I am at a airspeed of 350 and it drops to 300 within 10 seconds, got some pics showing the pitch and the pics you requested, I will put them up in several minutes.
 
here is the link, click on the next photo etc etc, remember you can enlarge the photo by clicking on it, then click again to return to the next pic.

http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee380/dave767/?action=view&current=LEVEL.jpg#!oZZ1QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs1224.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee380%2Fdave767%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3DLEVEL.jpg

Ok, I screwed up bigtime, I was traveling too fast for the intention of putting the gear down, this would of damaged the gear at the speed I was going but I have turned off the damage and stress button, I flew at a much slower speed and the plane slowly tilted downward VS upward at the 350 KIAS I was going at. this time I was at around 180.
 
hominid said:
By rotating and cropping the FBI flightpath map, squeezing it down vertically, and adding perspective, this is sort of like the cities would have looked when approaching from the north on a clear night. Oh, yeah. The gold color represents the city lights.
Click to expand...

I figured out that it would be easier to see the light pattern if I made the rest of it black.
 

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MrShutter45 said:
Ok, I screwed up bigtime, I was traveling too fast for the intention of putting the gear down, this would of damaged the gear at the speed I was going but I have turned off the damage and stress button, I flew at a much slower speed and the plane slowly tilted downward VS upward at the 350 KIAS I was going at. this time I was at around 180.
Click to expand...

If I understand correctly, the pix were from when you were dropping the gear at too high a speed. If so, ALL is right with the simulated world. First, you were going faster than is allowed for dropping the gear. I'm glad you were able to avoid crashing:) Second, you get correct direction of pitch and deceleration when you drop the gear at an appropriate airspeed. Nose-down pitch and decelleration are what should happen in the real world so I think it would be safe to assume that the simulator is at least closely accounting for the increased drag from dropping the gear.
 
hominid said:
If I understand correctly, the pix were from when you were dropping the gear at too high a speed. If so, ALL is right with the simulated world. First, you were going faster than is allowed for dropping the gear. I'm glad you were able to avoid crashing:) Second, you get correct direction of pitch and deceleration when you drop the gear at an appropriate airspeed. Nose-down pitch and decelleration are what should happen in the real world so I think it would be safe to assume that the simulator is at least closely accounting for the increased drag from dropping the gear.
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yes those pics are from high speeds, I was looking it up and reading when it hit me about gear down at high speeds will damage the gear, so I cranked up the sim and sure enough the plane started to go downward and slow down.

all part of being a test pilot :rocker:

your pic shows up too small to see.....
 
hominid said:
.....It is odd that the report statement for 7:43 was part of the logged comm for 7:42.
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Actually, not odd. Because the comm logging doesn't include seconds, the last part of what was logged at 7:42 could have happened up to 7:42:59.
 
MrShutter45 said:
.....your pic shows up too small to see.....
Click to expand...

Just like Portland way out in the distance:) You did click the pic, right?:) You lookin at it on a smartfone? Don't to try to analyze any fine detail on it.
 

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