Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

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Thanks to Jezebel for taking the time to reply to my post about being in court and watching TLM testify.

I sure wish we had live television cameras in our trials.

We are still behind the times, given the age of the internet and twitter universe. Information is out there now.........so not having television coverage doesn't make much sense anymore........IMO

As previously said, the reporters are just giving a very broad outlline of what is said, and it is directed at the general public, not the detail oriented Websleuthers.

JMO........

http://www.canada.com/Cameras+court+give+more+justice/6328743/story.html
 
Thanks to Jezebel for taking the time to reply to my post about being in court and watching TLM testify.

I sure wish we had live television cameras in our trials.

We are still behind the times, given the age of the internet and twitter universe. Information is out there now.........so not having television coverage doesn't make much sense anymore........IMO

As previously said, the reporters are just giving a very broad outlline of what is said, and it is directed at the general public, not the detail oriented Websleuthers.

JMO........

You're very welcome Ardy.

I was lucky to get in and be there for the entire day that day, and also I do not work far from the courthouse so I have been quite a few times so far for an hour or two each time.
It is definitely different being there then reading the tweets, as like you said you only get a very broad outline. I do wish I could have made it for more of her testimony though, I was planning to go the last day of cross, but by the time I got free, Derstine had just finished his entire cross of TLM.
 
I for one do not know if MR is guilty or not guilty, he certainly is not innocent.

My only argument is that our first thought as a society is to believe in cases like this, the women must have been brutalized into unwillingly participant in these horrific crimes, by her abusive overbearing partners. However in this case I believe TLM was the aggressor, the dominate and MR role has yet to be established. If we don’t change our opinions about what evil young women are capable of we will find ourselves losing more children. For example, KH … she was an equal participate, and it wasn’t until after her involvement that girls started being killed.

Had the two not met in the pizza shop that fateful day, TLM would have been arrested for breaching her probation, and she would have had to prove cause for her release. Likely she would have been denied bail, and sent back to incarceration to serve the balance of her sentence.

MR would quite likely have continued on with his life, such as it was.

TLM had the extremely violent past. TLM had the fantasies about bloody rampages. TLM was the one in control, in my opinion.

JMO................
 
How do we explain the talks of abducting kids that MR had with the other girlfriend after Tori?

I am on the fence, as of now, I am not even sure I can 100% agree with the sexual assault, I am not convinced MR is guilty of that... Now the kidnapping, it seems much more believable to me to have TLM say "hey MR can you pick me up by the school, I am babysitting TS today for a few hours" MR "but I have running around to do?" TLM "it's ok, we can go get drugs, her parents do drugs, it's fine, she is fine with us"

Maybe it went something like that? No mention of anything else... Until .....

Maybe TS was hurt in the car, maybe, maybe, maybe... Maybe the HD trip was after she was hurt and it was a last minute idea to attempt to cover up what went wrong...Maybe TLM hurt her when MR was driving and said he didn't want to have sex with TS... Who knows... Maybe they gave TS drugs, did they ever test TS to see if they had drugged her?

I don't believe TLM, I just can't she is covering up and I believe, in my opinion, that she is trying to "get" MR back for not loving her and not accepting the sick gift she tried to present him with on April 8, 2009...

MR is not innocent, in any way - IMO he is guilty of 1st degree murder, he did nothing to help TS on that day...
 
Had the two not met in the pizza shop that fateful day, TLM would have been arrested for breaching her probation, and she would have had to prove cause for her release. Likely she would have been denied bail, and sent back to incarceration to serve the balance of her sentence.

MR would quite likely have continued on with his life, such as it was.

TLM had the extremely violent past. TLM had the fantasies about bloody rampages. TLM was the one in control, in my opinion.

JMO................

I think the big question here, IMO, is "what WAS MR's life?". Another question would be "what did he have on his mind? What kind of fantasies did he have?".

While TLM probably would have murdered somebody eventually, anyway... it most likely, IMO, would have been somebody closer to her age. Yes, probably somebody who was not as strong as her/weaker, but an adult no less. Not saying that is any better, not at all. But if what she said to her godmother is true, that her only regret is that she killed a child, but "would do it again" (I take 'it' to mean murder, meaning, she wishes it was an adult she killed)....

What would MR have gone on to do? Would he have ended up being one of those child molesters that go after the children of their girlfriends, but not actually killing the children? We really don't know.

Was this a match made in hell, where they ended up coming together to fulfil each other's sick fantasies, resulting in the death of an innocent child?


Are these questions ones that will likely never be answered?



JMO.
 
How do we explain the talks of abducting kids that MR had with the other girlfriend after Tori?

I am on the fence, as of now, I am not even sure I can 100% agree with the sexual assault, I am not convinced MR is guilty of that... Now the kidnapping, it seems much more believable to me to have TLM say "hey MR can you pick me up by the school, I am babysitting TS today for a few hours" MR "but I have running around to do?" TLM "it's ok, we can go get drugs, her parents do drugs, it's fine, she is fine with us"

Maybe it went something like that? No mention of anything else... Until .....

Maybe TS was hurt in the car, maybe, maybe, maybe... Maybe the HD trip was after she was hurt and it was a last minute idea to attempt to cover up what went wrong...Maybe TLM hurt her when MR was driving and said he didn't want to have sex with TS... Who knows... Maybe they gave TS drugs, did they ever test TS to see if they had drugged her?

I don't believe TLM, I just can't she is covering up and I believe, in my opinion, that she is trying to "get" MR back for not loving her and not accepting the sick gift she tried to present him with on April 8, 2009...

MR is not innocent, in any way - IMO he is guilty of 1st degree murder, he did nothing to help TS on that day...


JMO

what I read about MR mentioning abduction of children he wasn't suggesting an abduction..he was saying that he thought some of these abductions took place because people wanted the kids for themselves and also he said that sometimes these kids grow up thinking these people that abducted them are their real parents... I did not read into that, that he was talking about abducting himself..also at the time this was all the talk not only in Woodstock but other small towns/cities so I doubt if he was the only one mentioning abduction...JMO I see nothing wrong with that,,,JMO I don't see the charge of 1st degree murder the right one but I agree he deserves some jail time for helping cover up the crime...not sure what that charge would be but maybe 2nd murder...can't see how anyone can be charged with 1st degree if they didn't swing the weapon and as per TLM he didn't....
 
I think the big question here, IMO, is "what WAS MR's life?". Another question would be "what did he have on his mind? What kind of fantasies did he have?".

While TLM probably would have murdered somebody eventually, anyway... it most likely, IMO, would have been somebody closer to her age. Yes, probably somebody who was not as strong as her/weaker, but an adult no less. Not saying that is any better, not at all. But if what she said to her godmother is true, that her only regret is that she killed a child, but "would do it again" (I take 'it' to mean murder, meaning, she wishes it was an adult she killed)....

What would MR have gone on to do? Would he have ended up being one of those child molesters that go after the children of their girlfriends, but not actually killing the children? We really don't know.

Was this a match made in hell, where they ended up coming together to fulfil each other's sick fantasies, resulting in the death of an innocent child?


Are these questions ones that will likely never be answered?



JMO.

or...what if both had been sober and not addicted to drugs, would their demons have been held at bay? Did drugs loosen up and slant their perceptions. JMO
 
For those wondering about TS escaping while in the car when TLM went around to the passenger seat...

For all we know, perhaps she pushed TS into the car and then followed in behind her?

Many if not all cars are equiped with Child locks so that the rear doors cannot be opened from the inside if the car is in drive, some also have a mechanical switch inside the door jam or on the door that prevents the rear doors from being open at all from the inside.
 
Maybe MR removed the handles on the insides of the rear doors. JMO
 
For those wondering about TS escaping while in the car when TLM went around to the passenger seat...

For all we know, perhaps she pushed TS into the car and then followed in behind her?

Many if not all cars are equiped with Child locks so that the rear doors cannot be opened from the inside if the car is in drive, some also have a mechanical switch inside the door jam or on the door that prevents the rear doors from being open at all from the inside.


once my auto is in the drive position the doors automatically lock...who knows...
 
I think MR wanted a girl who would be walking north on Fyfe. If he had to take a kid who was walking south,TLM and his car would likely be seen by someone, IMO. The abduction would be even more risky. There are many townhouses south of the school and he already knew that since he knew the layout of one of those homes. Instead, he waited north at the corner at the second parking lot of the retirement home. JMO
 
How many people would feel comfortable leaving a female child under the age of nine alone with someone like MR? To believe that he was duped, or that truthfulness from his accomplice is required, does one also believe that a young female child would be safe in his care? Personally, I think there is plenty of evidence, excluding his accomplice, that points to his guilt. His accomplice can tell as many lies as she wants and his lawyer can obfuscate the truth all he wants, but MR still doesn't look duped or innocent to me.
 
How many people would feel comfortable leaving a female child under the age of nine alone with someone like MR? To believe that he was duped, or that truthfulness from his accomplice is required, does one also believe that a young female child would be safe in his care? Personally, I think there is plenty of evidence, excluding his accomplice, that points to his guilt. His accomplice can tell as many lies as she wants and his lawyer can obfuscate the truth all he wants, but MR still doesn't look duped or innocent to me.

I can't wait to hear what MR did while TLM was killing Tori. He didn't use his phone. Where did he go? What did he do? What did she tell him was going to happen?
 
How many people would feel comfortable leaving a female child under the age of nine alone with someone like MR? To believe that he was duped, or that truthfulness from his accomplice is required, does one also believe that a young female child would be safe in his care? Personally, I think there is plenty of evidence, excluding his accomplice, that points to his guilt. His accomplice can tell as many lies as she wants and his lawyer can obfuscate the truth all he wants, but MR still doesn't look duped or innocent to me.


respectfully... looks can be deceiving or info that hasn't been proven to date.. JMO...but on saying that..I would never think of leaving a female with a male no matter who he was unless he was the father of the child... knowing the little I do now about MR well he would be excluded no doubt..JMO personally I think we should wait until the final outcome of this trial before we go too far overboard... JMO
 
or...what if both had been sober and not addicted to drugs, would their demons have been held at bay? Did drugs loosen up and slant their perceptions. JMO

Drugs don't create monsters. A monster is a monster, drugs or not. There are plenty of good people out there who are unfortunately addicted to drugs. Drug addiction doesn't automatically make somebody a criminal, or violent, or a child molester, or a murderer, etc.
Like alcohol, some drugs may lower inhibitions, but in cases like people like TLM, and possibly MR, sobriety wouldn't have made a difference.


JMO
 
I can't wait to hear what MR did while TLM was killing Tori. He didn't use his phone. Where did he go? What did he do? What did she tell him was going to happen?

I am surprised that anyone would try to paint one half of a murderous team as an innocent. They both knew perfectly well that if they left Tori alive they would be arrested for what they did ... that the only hope of getting away with it was to eliminate the witness. There's no way that MR was ignorant about how the plan ended.
 
Drugs don't create monsters. A monster is a monster, drugs or not. There are plenty of good people out there who are unfortunately addicted to drugs. Drug addiction doesn't automatically make somebody a criminal, or violent, or a child molester, or a murderer, etc.
Like alcohol, some drugs may lower inhibitions, but in cases like people like TLM, and possibly MR, sobriety wouldn't have made a difference.


JMO


I agree about TLM...no doubt in my mind....MR....not so sure at this point..JMO
 
respectfully... looks can be deceiving or info that hasn't been proven to date.. JMO...but on saying that..I would never think of leaving a female with a male no matter who he was unless he was the father of the child... knowing the little I do now about MR well he would be excluded no doubt..JMO personally I think we should wait until the final outcome of this trial before we go too far overboard... JMO

MR participated in kidnapping a 9 year old stranger, provided money and transportation to purchase a murder weapon, drove to a secluded area 130 miles from where she was abducted, the child was found without clothes below the waist (sexual assault), the child was murdered with the murder weapon that he paid for and he did everything he could to get away with the crime.

What more do I need to know?
 
I am surprised that anyone would try to paint one half of a murderous team as an innocent. They both knew perfectly well that if they left Tori alive they would be arrested for what they did ... that the only hope of getting away with it was to eliminate the witness. There's no way that MR was ignorant about how the plan ended.


I would be surprised also if I read that some thought MR innocent in this crime but that doesn't mean he is not innocent of some of the charges...thankfully no one on this site has yet to claim that MR is totally innocent of ALL charges.... some, me included will wait until the court of law proves that he is indeed guilty of ALL charges...JMO
 
MR bought 300 percs while Tori was in the car. Great babysitting. Maybe Tori had to go because she knew he bought that many pills? Just another thing to add to the list. He wanted to rape her and she knew about all the drugs he bought too. So she had to die. JMO
 
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