The girls were abducted then what?

I believe the TRM timed this thing just right when the girls left the mall. He probably approached them in his vehicle as they walked down Drumm Ave. & continued whatever was said to them earlier on his recorder (after all these perps' know what to say, & and ask to obtain info). I do not beleive he was just talking to them at the mall, he was trolling. Somehow he coaxed them into his vehicle quickly, & after that it was 'Katy bar the door'. Credit due, these jerks are good at what they do!

IF the perp is TRM and he took them along Drumm Ave. then he would had to have had more personal info about them, like where they lived. He would also had to have known how they got home (which route they travelled). He would also have to know where their address is in relation to the mall. And how to get there quickly to intercept.
He could not have just followed them in his car as they walked home because their route contained areas only accessible on foot.
This is a lot of info for a perp to have when the only thing supposedly overheard was do you play sports. And after which the girls left in the opposite direction.(as reported by jimmy). This is all IF you believe Jimmy's story.
Lots of IFs here.
I refuse to give credit to anyone who intentionally harms a child.
I think it's more likely the girls were snatched on their way home by someone who either planned it, or happened upon them.
 
You're correct in saying a child snatcher, & potential killer does'nt deserve any CREDIT. He caused much grief, pain, suffering etc. I'd, like to have 2 mins. alone with him.
 
IF the perp is TRM and he took them along Drumm Ave. then he would had to have had more personal info about them, like where they lived. He would also had to have known how they got home (which route they travelled). He would also have to know where their address is in relation to the mall. And how to get there quickly to intercept.
He could not have just followed them in his car as they walked home because their route contained areas only accessible on foot.
This is a lot of info for a perp to have when the only thing supposedly overheard was do you play sports. And after which the girls left in the opposite direction.(as reported by jimmy). This is all IF you believe Jimmy's story.
Lots of IFs here.
I refuse to give credit to anyone who intentionally harms a child.
I think it's more likely the girls were snatched on their way home by someone who either planned it, or happened upon them.

I agree,not very likely at all.A man that didn't even know they'd be there that day,where they lived and what their path home would be, couldn't have had all the info needed to pull that off.
 
I've grown fonder of my Feast of St. Dismas/Easter week "find" from another of StL's excellent threads on this fascinating case. (The kidnapping occurred on the former, on the Tuesday of the latter.) If indeed there is a religious aspect to this case, I think they would have been taken to some place with--at leat in the mind of the perpetrator--a ritualistic significance.

Okay, trying to get back on track. Someone took them from somewhere, we've gone round and round with those two. But what happened next.
If we go with wfgodot's theory or really any theory that ties into religion then what wfgodot suggests makes sense. Taking them somewhere with a ritualistic significance. So where would that be that is no further than 15 miles from Wheaton? I need to do a little research and come back with my ideas.
As I typed this I realized that wherever the perp took these girls had to have a ritualistic significance to him. What type of ritual, if something other than religious, I'm not sure. This perp had done this before, and had planned this abduction so what type of ritual significance did this abduction hold for him?
 
Okay, trying to get back on track. Someone took them from somewhere, we've gone round and round with those two. But what happened next.
If we go with wfgodot's theory or really any theory that ties into religion then what wfgodot suggests makes sense. Taking them somewhere with a ritualistic significance. So where would that be that is no further than 15 miles from Wheaton? I need to do a little research and come back with my ideas.
As I typed this I realized that wherever the perp took these girls had to have a ritualistic significance to him. What type of ritual, if something other than religious, I'm not sure. This perp had done this before, and had planned this abduction so what type of ritual significance did this abduction hold for him?

I'm wondering....if it was some type of ritualistic abdution,do we think the perp knew them? I feel like if this was the case,they knew the guy,due to the fact that nobody saw or heard a struggle.However,if it was an unknown person and he was somehow able to take them with out anyone seeing it,were they picked at random or stalked? As far as where he could have taken them,maybe an abandoned church?
 
I'm wondering....if it was some type of ritualistic abdution,do we think the perp knew them? I feel like if this was the case,they knew the guy,due to the fact that nobody saw or heard a struggle.However,if it was an unknown person and he was somehow able to take them with out anyone seeing it,were they picked at random or stalked? As far as where he could have taken them,maybe an abandoned church?

Well I tend to think if a stranger took them, then is was random. Like the stranger planned to take someone and these poor girls just happened to be who came along. Which is strange on a residential street. On a residential street there are many kids walking around unsupervised (at least in 1975). So seeing two girls alone wouldn't be as strange as seeing two girls at the mall alone. Easier to take the girls from the mall.

If it was someone they knew, then it would seem again that they just happened upon them. Because this was not a routine trip for the girls it was spontaneous.

Okay if it was someone they knew did they get taken because the were Sheila and Katherine Lyons? (in other words stalked)
Or were they taken because they happened to be acquainted with a child abductor (unbeknownst to them) and he came across them that day and couldn't help himself. (unplanned)
Or they were acquainted with a child abductor who planned to abduct that day and came across the two girls which seemed an easy catch?? (planned with no specific victim in mind)

Do you see the difference here, am I making any sense (it's been a long day already)

Like in the Sandra Cantu case, she lived amongst many RSOs and shady people who were very friendly with children. I'd bet that she was familiar with whoever took her, and probably had been to their home. I don't think they took her because they had to have Sandra, I think they took her because she was an easy catch that day.

Ugh it just makes my heart sick!!! I hope they find this person or persons very soon!!!

Sorry that is OT.
 
I'm wondering....if it was some type of ritualistic abdution,do we think the perp knew them? I feel like if this was the case,they knew the guy,due to the fact that nobody saw or heard a struggle.However,if it was an unknown person and he was somehow able to take them with out anyone seeing it,were they picked at random or stalked? As far as where he could have taken them,maybe an abandoned church?

Bolded by me

This is a good thought. I'll research to see if there were any abandon churches around in 1975.

There is also the big temple, the headquarters for Seventh Day Adventists, in Kensington. There is a lot of land around the temple.

I also think of outdoor type places. Water may be important. Water is very significant in Christianity. The unfortunate thing is there are so many parks and bodies of water just a short drive from wheaton.
The Potomac River and The Chesapeake Bay are a 20 minute drive or less. Not to mention all the wooded areas, mountains, and creeks around the area.
There is the:
C&O canal
Great Falls
Rock Creek Park/Beach Drive area
Sligo Creek Park
Appalachian trails
Catoctin Mtn.
Sugarloaf Mtn.
And quite a few state parks
all within' a 30 minute drive . . .
 
But if it didn't happen in the parking lot, then the person would have to know his way around. It's not like the car could just follow closely behind the girls. He would have to know which roads linked to which roads, and he would have to know where the girls were headed. If one simply observed them coming through a cross walk there would be no clear indication which direction they came from. For a car to leave the parking lot and end up on the streets they were walking, I think the car would have to drive out onto University Blvd. and then in a circle to the residential streets. And those streets, at least University Blvd., is heavily travelled at all times of the day.

Admittedly the actual plaza has changed drastically. The parking lots for the most part remain as they were. I would think there would be a big change in trees, shrubbery, and paths since 1975. When did you see this area? In 1975, or sometime later? I understand your thoughts about the parking area being the same, but maybe trees have been cleared, or landscapes redone so the view in 1975 may not have been so clear.
Just some thoughts.

I have a 1975 Map and also a much more detailed 1981 Map of the area, which clearly depicts all of the neighborhood streets, including all those I mentioned in my earlier post about the route. Those street locations have not changed at all. Only the wooded section through which the path went (between McComas and Jennings) is different. There are now some houses built in there, some fences have been put up, etc.

I walked the route only a few weeks ago; from the old Wards parking lot, down the short foot path (now black topped) west on Faulkner, west on Drumm, across McComas (still on Drumm) to Plyers Mill Road, Left on Plyers Mill for one block, and across Jennings. While this route left out the foot path through the woods, it was aproximately the same distance overall. Total time at a brisk walk was 15 minutes each way.

Your points about an abductor needing to know the residential roads is somewhat true. It would certainly be easier for him if he had a detailed map, or if he had previously traveled the roads to know which ones connected with University Blvd and/or Georgia Ave. - Those being the best/ fastest escape routes from the area. But he would not necessarily need that information.

The big problem would be that IF he were to sit and wait in the residential area, someone might notice him. And if he tried to intercept the girls on one of those streets AFTER seeing them leave the Plaza parking lot, then he would be running the risk of getting lost in the maze of streets, or having to make it all a very complicated "controlled time of arrival" problem. Again, it COULD be done, but with much more risk of his being seen or of the girls running away to one of the many houses on the route.

You are also correct about the view (of the residential area) that an abductor would have had from the parking lot. Even today, you have to look through trees to see Faulkner, and then you do not see much of it. If the abductor DID NOT know the girls, then he wouldn't know where they lived or what their destination was after leaving the Plaza. He might drive some how to the intersection of Drumm and McComas, and the girls could have gone into any of 41 houses before that intersection.

So, unless he in some way had learned where they lived, or at least how much of the route they walked, then his best place to abduct would be in the parking lot itself.
 
This case really hit a nerve with me because on December 23, 1974, three girls, ages 9, 14 and 17 disappeared from the parking lot of Seminary South shopping mall parking lot in Ft. Worth, Texas, never to be seen again.

http://www.missingtrio.com/TRIO/index.aspx
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/trlica_mary.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/w/wilson_lisa.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/moseley_julie.html

When I hear of another case, so incredibly similar and even around a holiday it makes me wonder if these could somehow be connected.
 
This case really hit a nerve with me because on December 23, 1974, three girls, ages 9, 14 and 17 disappeared from the parking lot of Seminary South shopping mall parking lot in Ft. Worth, Texas, never to be seen again.

http://www.missingtrio.com/TRIO/index.aspx
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/trlica_mary.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/w/wilson_lisa.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/moseley_julie.html

When I hear of another case, so incredibly similar and even around a holiday it makes me wonder if these could somehow be connected.

Thanks PrincessRose. The similarities in this case are eery. The time of year was a time when the kids were on break from school, 2 days before Christmas, another church holiday. The girls were similar in age. It happened at a shopping center around the same time of day, they left early and planned to be home at 4pm. And all the girls are fair haired.
The difference is there were 3 girls from 3 different families. The pain and anguish spread through three families. I just can't imagine.

But I have to wonder, how someone got 3 girls in a vehicle relatively unnoticed. It sounds like there were some witnesses to some strange behaviors but not enough for anyone to intervene.
This is the work of pure evil.

It certainly seems these cases are connected. I'd love to know the descriptions of the men that were seen possibly forcing girls in vehicles.
 
Also interesting in the trio case, it states authorities believe the girls left with someone they were familiar with and were harmed later.
 
I've been looking at this case on the cold case thread,after reading there,I don't think their case is related to the Lyon girls.It's so very sad though.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11334&highlight=Mary+Trlica

I think it could be. Nothing makes sense. I don't think the family is involved. Maybe someone familiar to one or all of the girls, but not the family. All the PIs that have been hired are odd. The first one reportedly committed suicide and had all his files destroyed. I read this guy was a media hog. I think he wasn't doing a whole lot of working and when he died he didn't want all of his clients to find out just how much work he wasn't doing.

Then there's the second PI who has all this info that one, or two of the girls are still alive, yet he doesn't say where they are, and none of them has ever returned. I think this second PI is playing the brother. What is his motive, I don't know because it is stated he isn't being paid.
It'd be crazy if it turns out that the second PI is really the killer, and he entered the scene to muddy the waters, and cast suspicions elsewhere.

I still think the cases could be related.
 
I think it could be. Nothing makes sense. I don't think the family is involved. Maybe someone familiar to one or all of the girls, but not the family. All the PIs that have been hired are odd. The first one reportedly committed suicide and had all his files destroyed. I read this guy was a media hog. I think he wasn't doing a whole lot of working and when he died he didn't want all of his clients to find out just how much work he wasn't doing.

Then there's the second PI who has all this info that one, or two of the girls are still alive, yet he doesn't say where they are, and none of them has ever returned. I think this second PI is playing the brother. What is his motive, I don't know because it is stated he isn't being paid.
It'd be crazy if it turns out that the second PI is really the killer, and he entered the scene to muddy the waters, and cast suspicions elsewhere.
I still think they could be related.
Bolded by me

That would be:eek:.I do have it listed on the similar cases thread.What is the deal with the sister and the polygraph?
 
Thanks to everyone for sharing information about where this trio abduction case from Ft. Worth is discussed here. It's such a strange, sad story and so frustrating that it has never been solved and no trace of the girls ever found. I have always wondered what on earth could have happened to them.
 
Bolded by me

That would be:eek:.I do have it listed on the similar cases thread.What is the deal with the sister and the polygraph?

I've seen some indication that she did actually take the polygraph, but there's nothing about the outcome.

I lived in Ft. Worth at the time these girls disappeared and had just entered high school, myself.

I know of one drug dealer who operated in the DFW area in the mid 70's. He would lace joints with a horse tranquilizer called "Angel Dust". Reactions were varied from panic attacks to paranoia. If Julie smoked one of these revved up joints, she may have freaked out and who know what could have happened.

In 1976, 2 Ft. Worth Western Hills high school students DIED from smoking joints laced with Angel Dust. I tried to find a link describing this situation, but I was unable to. I remember it well as news reports about it convinced me to never try marijuana.

The shopping mall, Seminary South was located on the Southeast side of Ft. Worth which, even as early as 1975 was becoming a less than safe area. It had been originally built in 1959 when the area was more middle class, but the area became affected by urban decay and much of the middle class population had migrated to the Southwest part of Ft. Worth by the mid 1970's, leaving the Southeast area's deteriorating houses, and crime behind. However, in 1975, the mall would still have been considered a reasonably safe place to go during the day. The mall is bordered on East side, across a highway, by a very rough neighborhood. Although the mall has been completely redone twice, first as an outlet mall and now re-themed in a Mexican motif with discount retailers, even today, this is not an area that you would want stop in at night. However, in 1975, it was the ONLY mall in town, which is presumably why the girls were shopping there.

http://mallsofamerica.blogspot.com/2006/05/seminary-south-shopping-center.html

The three missing girls lived quite a distance from the mall - in the Southwest "Hulen Street" area if you want to check this out on a map to get an idea of the distance, it would have taken them at least 20 - 30 minutes to get there from their homes. In 1975, Seminary South was an open air shopping mall - still very much like it was when built in 1959 - so although the stores were bunched together in an island type of arrangement, the inside "mall" area was an open air outdoor space with covered walkways and the shops stood in blocks that opened to the outdoors or were their own unique buildings - such as the Sears store.
 
http://www.crimeandclues.com/92feb002.htm


from the above link...

Careful planning epitomizes the crimes of the sexual sadist, who devotes considerable time and effort to the offense. Many demonstrate cunning and methodical planning. The capture of the victim, the selection and preparation of equipment, and the methodical elicitation of suffering often reflect meticulous attention to detail.
The overwhelming majority of offenders we studied used a pretext or ruse to first make contact with the victims. The sexual sadist would offer or request assistance, pretend to be a police officer, respond to a classified advertisement, meet a realtor at an isolated property, or otherwise gain the confidence of the victim.
Almost invariably, the victims were taken to a location selected in advance that offered solitude and safety for the sadist and little opportunity of escape or rescue for the victim. Such locations included the offender's residence, isolated forests, and even elaborately constructed facilities designed for captivity.


In my opinion the person whom did this was/is a sexual sadist.
and perhaps LE should recheck there list of suspects including Richards list and concentrate on those whos MO pertain/involved/preference for young girls.
It probably/and I am almost 100percent certain it was not, his first time, and the opportunity to abduct two instead of one, he found EXTREMELY exciting.
What a monster!

 
I have been reading the threads on this case off and on for awhile, I have not read them all but enough to say I believe the girls were abducted in the parking lot by someone they recognized from earlier in the day. I also think they were killed fairly soon afterward, possibly in a couple hours. The perp or perps had a burial site all ready.
No I do not claim to be psychic but have found I have pretty good instincts. Those instincts also tell me that whomever did this is probably dead themselves by now.
 
...I believe the girls were abducted in the parking lot by someone they recognized from earlier in the day. I also think they were killed fairly soon afterward, possibly in a couple hours. The perp or perps had a burial site all ready.
No I do not claim to be psychic but have found I have pretty good instincts. Those instincts also tell me that whomever did this is probably dead themselves by now.

I think that being a psychic involves the kinds of instincts and intuitions that you are familiar with.

One could analyze this case for years and consider many scenarios or possible answers, but your conclusions seem to be the most likely regarding the girls.

As to the perpetrator, I would give it about a 50/50 chance that he is dead. If still alive, it is likely that he is in prison for other similar crimes.

He was probably a serial killer who killed many times before and many times afterward. The fact that no forensic evidence was left behind, and the fact that no bodies have ever been found tends to point to a remote (isolated) burial site.

He may have dug the grave ahead of time, but more likely he did it afterward. In his planning he would have chosen the site and had shovel and pick available. There is a risk in digging a grave in advance, because it could be discovered. Having a grave already dug puts pressure on the perpetrator to fill it before it is seen by someone. Or stated a different way, he has that worry hanging over his head of possible discovery.
 

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