NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 8

McSpy · Feb 26, 2012

jaleach123 said:
The bulimia angle is interesting. Maura was a big track and field runner, if I remember correctly, so it's possible she was quite concerned about her weight.

I am absolutely convinced she had a very serious drinking problem, if she wasn't already an outright alcoholic. Didn't she wreck her father's car after being at a party? Then all the alcohol she bought before taking the trip that was found in her car after the second accident. She'd been drinking while driving, too. I think she was moderately drunk when the accident occurred and, remembering the earlier accident, became quite concerned about the arrival of the police. They would've smelled the alcohol and found the booze in the car, and Maura quite likely would've went to jail on a DUI charge. Family and friends would learn about her drinking problem, and that would shatter the image Maura wanted to project about herself. She took off on foot to get away from the accident. Throw in a possible head injury from the accident coupled with drinking and I think it highly likely she got confused and wandered off into the woods. She got lost and died from exposure. It's possible someone might stumble over her bones out there some day.

There's the issue of the phone call to the boyfriend sometime later, but I've never seen absolute confirmation that the call came from Maura.

I think Maura may have had an underlying problem with anxiety, which could have lead to problems such as an eating disorder or an alcohol problem. If she was shy as a child, I can see anxiety overcoming her at times as an adult, especially when she often tried her best at everything she took on. She was quite the accomplshed young lady, but sometimes the pressure and stress can lead to crutches if she suffered from anxiety. I have a problem with anxiety and I finally recognized it a few years ago. It helps to recognize it, so you can find healthy ways to deal with it.

This is all speculation and my opinion.

nova1998 · Feb 26, 2012

In an earlier post, quite far back, Mr. Noatak said he/she believes the tracking dog(s) got it right.

So do I.

Whenever you begin tracking training with a dog, one philosophy (e.g.Tracking Through Drive - TTD) stipulates that it is best to start off in fields with short grass as opposed to long grass and not near trees and bushes. Why? Because scent particles which "stick" to grass, trees, and bushes creates easier air-scenting opportunities for the dog, and that isn't desirable at the start of training as you want the dog to focus on ground scent and the type of decomposition that occurs. Scent clings to brush, bushes, trees, wooded areas, long grass, and the sides of buildings. Not only does it cling well to these types of vegetation and structures, but it can last longer as well. If the SAR dogs went out into woods and couldn't detect any scent...that's probably because there was none. And even if Ms. Murray didn't wear her gloves that much, her scent was still on them as she would have had to have handled them.

Vehicles are not 100% airtight - they are constantly leaking scent from door seals and other areas. If the tracking dog(s) stopped at roughly 100 yards from the the Saturn, Ms. Murray may have actually entered the vehicle prior to this point, as some dogs will still be able to detect scent from a vehicle which is moving at a very slow speed (such as accelerating from a stopped position and shortly afterwards). Once the vehicle has picked up speed, it becomes far more difficult and the dogs have to stop. As well, it could depend on what the wind conditions were like on that day. If wind was to Ms. Murray's back, her scent may have been pushed forward on the road in the same direction which would cause some dogs to overshoot.

It depends on the dog, but if he/she overshot slightly, due to either wind conditions or scent leaking from the car, then bring down the 100 yards a bit, and you may have had a vehicle that pulled up not that much further ahead of Ms. Murray's Saturn. And off they would have gone, in a flash.

scoops · Feb 26, 2012

Skigirl said:
Well, if she hadn't unpacked, you wouldn't expect things on the walls, but if they were indeed stacked on the bed, I agree, that would certainly make the "hadn't unpacked" theory unlikely. But I've seen the "note on the boxes" idea disputed and do we know for sure where the boxes were stacked? All it takes is one reporter misunderstanding or misreporting and the media reflecting hall of mirrors has a way of magnifying misinformation and making it seem like established fact. I don't know either way, but I'm interested in understanding how good the evidence is for the note and the location of the boxes.

You are right, concerning the media and the potential being there to get facts twisted, because of all the different reporting that went on about this case.

However, the info came from a press release issued by the NH state police. Which is basically a long quote. It basically comes down to how credible and detailed the police are in this instance.

A key would be to talk to the actual police officer (From Amherst not NH) that was actually present along with Maura's boyfriend when the dorm room was searched.

Very odd that maura's boyfriend dismisses a note being found by not saying there wasn't a note, just saying it wasn't a new note.

I highly doubt whether the note was new or old, that it mattered (maura was sending some kind of message with it). the note was there for a reason and I personally believe Billy knows this.

telemag · Feb 26, 2012

Skigirl said:
The stolen credit card number with which all she did was order pizzas - that screams "bulimia" to me. She also drank quite a bit by some accounts and bulimia and alcohol abuse are often co-morbid. She's in the right demographic, she's a high achiever. I obviously can't know for sure, but it fits her behavior and it helps explain the trip. I would bet that she was.

I see. With all due respect I'll strongly disagree with this one. Using someone else's CC to order pizza does not scream bulimia. Its says to me that she wanted pizza and couldn't afford it and or was thief enough to say she was not going to waste her own money when she could use someone else's card. As far the drinking how many college kids drink beer and other alcoholic beverages? Also on a side note I knew a girl who was bulimic, her teeth were grey looking. She told me it was from all the stomach acid from throwing up all the time. Maura's looked pretty white to me.

Simply Caustic · Feb 26, 2012

telemag said:
I see. With all due respect I'll strongly disagree with this one. Using someone else's CC to order pizza does not scream bulimia. Its says to me that she wanted pizza and couldn't afford it and or was thief enough to say she was not going to waste her own money when she could use someone else's card. As far the drinking how many college kids drink beer and other alcoholic beverages? Also on a side note I knew a girl who was bulimic, her teeth were grey looking. She told me it was from all the stomach acid from throwing up all the time. Maura's looked pretty white to me.

It should also be noted that it wasn't simply one pizza - it was several/many pizzas. In the neighborhood of $75 or so, IIRC. And that's on the credit card we're aware of.

To me, binging on food, for someone of Maura's size, could very likely have been followed by purging. The very act of repeatedly stealing credit card numbers for food - well, to me, that does scream bullimic (okay, maybe it whispers it). A typical fraudster is going to get electronics, gas, items quickly resold for cash, expensive items. That's what a proficient identity thief would do. But not Maura - for the second time (allegedly), she was caught using a credit card number that was not hers....to obtain food. Given that I believe she could have asked her family for food, if it was sheerly food to survive/nourish...I do think that it's suggestive of her having an eating disorder. That would explain why she would have to steal to get the food - it's expensive to be bullimic. And if her family were aware of the issue, they wouldn't provide an excessive amount of food for her ( to remove the risk of tempting her to binge/purge). Just my two cents and all that.

telemag · Feb 26, 2012

Simply Caustic said:
It should also be noted that it wasn't simply one pizza - it was several/many pizzas. In the neighborhood of $75 or so, IIRC. And that's on the credit card we're aware of.

To me, binging on food, for someone of Maura's size, could very likely have been followed by purging. The very act of repeatedly stealing credit card numbers for food - well, to me, that does scream bullimic (okay, maybe it whispers it). A typical fraudster is going to get electronics, gas, items quickly resold for cash, expensive items. That's what a proficient identity thief would do. But not Maura - for the second time (allegedly), she was caught using a credit card number that was not hers....to obtain food. Given that I believe she could have asked her family for food, if it was sheerly food to survive/nourish...I do think that it's suggestive of her having an eating disorder. That would explain why she would have to steal to get the food - it's expensive to be bullimic. And if her family were aware of the issue, they wouldn't provide an excessive amount of food for her ( to remove the risk of tempting her to binge/purge). Just my two cents and all that.

According to Mr Renner Maura had ordered from 3 different pizza places totaling $79.02. He does not specify how many times she ordered only that 3 pizza parlors were involved. A large pizza from Pizza Hut is $10. I'll assume that these smaller places charge a little more and also we don't know if these places sold by the piece or what she ordered on them. We also don't know how many times she ordered in total. If 3 places were involved then we know at min. she ordered 3 times or more. This does NOT come out to very much pizza. We also don't know if she was sharing this pizza with a fellow student. Again JMO, but I don't see how this even slightly suggests she was bulimic. To me it suggests, no it proves she was a thief I'm sorry to say.

McSpy · Feb 27, 2012

telemag said:
I see. With all due respect I'll strongly disagree with this one. Using someone else's CC to order pizza does not scream bulimia. Its says to me that she wanted pizza and couldn't afford it and or was thief enough to say she was not going to waste her own money when she could use someone else's card. As far the drinking how many college kids drink beer and other alcoholic beverages? Also on a side note I knew a girl who was bulimic, her teeth were grey looking. She told me it was from all the stomach acid from L
throwing up all the time. Maura's looked pretty white to me.

Not all Bulimics purge. Some fast or do extreme exercise. Also, she was quite young. Perhaps, it hadn't taken its toll yet. JMO

McSpy · Feb 27, 2012

telemag said:
According to Mr Renner Maura had ordered from 3 different pizza places totaling $79.02. He does not specify how many times she ordered only that 3 pizza parlors were involved. A large pizza from Pizza Hut is $10. I'll assume that these smaller places charge a little more and also we don't know if these places sold by the piece or what she ordered on them. We also don't know how many times she ordered in total. If 3 places were involved then we know at min. she ordered 3 times or more. This does NOT come out to very much pizza. We also don't know if she was sharing this pizza with a fellow student. Again JMO, but I don't see how this even slightly suggests she was bulimic. To me it suggests, no it proves she was a thief I'm sorry to say.

You could be right, but I choose to believe she had a problem that drove her to steal. She bought nothing but food. Why didn't she buy anything else? Why not an iPod or a new outfit? She got caught by only buying pizza.

telemag · Feb 27, 2012

McSpy said:
You could be right, but I choose to believe she had a problem that drove her to steal. She bought nothing but food. Why didn't she buy anything else? Why not an iPod or a new outfit? She got caught by only buying pizza.

Probably because they deliver so no cameras and she liked pizza. It's the food of choice for most college kids, I know plenty. I think people are reading too much into this. Maura used a stolen cc number to order pizza so she must be bulimic? Come on that's a huge stretch.

CanManEh · Feb 27, 2012

I Hate Having to do This but I told ya this was gonna happen with this guy and his new book ...

Mr. Noatak · Feb 27, 2012

nova1998 said:
In an earlier post, quite far back, Mr. Noatak said he/she believes the tracking dog(s) got it right.

So do I.

Whenever you begin tracking training with a dog, one philosophy (e.g.Tracking Through Drive - TTD) stipulates that it is best to start off in fields with short grass as opposed to long grass and not near trees and bushes. Why? Because scent particles which "stick" to grass, trees, and bushes creates easier air-scenting opportunities for the dog, and that isn't desirable at the start of training as you want the dog to focus on ground scent and the type of decomposition that occurs. Scent clings to brush, bushes, trees, wooded areas, long grass, and the sides of buildings. Not only does it cling well to these types of vegetation and structures, but it can last longer as well. If the SAR dogs went out into woods and couldn't detect any scent...that's probably because there was none. And even if Ms. Murray didn't wear her gloves that much, her scent was still on them as she would have had to have handled them.

Vehicles are not 100% airtight - they are constantly leaking scent from door seals and other areas. If the tracking dog(s) stopped at roughly 100 yards from the the Saturn, Ms. Murray may have actually entered the vehicle prior to this point, as some dogs will still be able to detect scent from a vehicle which is moving at a very slow speed (such as accelerating from a stopped position and shortly afterwards). Once the vehicle has picked up speed, it becomes far more difficult and the dogs have to stop. As well, it could depend on what the wind conditions were like on that day. If wind was to Ms. Murray's back, her scent may have been pushed forward on the road in the same direction which would cause some dogs to overshoot.

It depends on the dog, but if he/she overshot slightly, due to either wind conditions or scent leaking from the car, then bring down the 100 yards a bit, and you may have had a vehicle that pulled up not that much further ahead of Ms. Murray's Saturn. And off they would have gone, in a flash.

My opinions only, no facts here:

Yes. A dog's nose does not lie, unless the handler has a motive to subliminally affect its actions (which seems quite unlikely in this case, but there are other cases to the contrary-mostly involving publicity seekers). But, I think the vehicle that picked up Maura did not travel very far.

Skigirl · Feb 27, 2012

telemag said:
I see. With all due respect I'll strongly disagree with this one. Using someone else's CC to order pizza does not scream bulimia. Its says to me that she wanted pizza and couldn't afford it and or was thief enough to say she was not going to waste her own money when she could use someone else's card. As far the drinking how many college kids drink beer and other alcoholic beverages? Also on a side note I knew a girl who was bulimic, her teeth were grey looking. She told me it was from all the stomach acid from throwing up all the time. Maura's looked pretty white to me.

We're going to have to agree to disagree, because stealing is a pretty risky act for someone who's spent a lot of time worrying about her future, and it seems to me that there would need to be more to it than just wanting a snack. Furthermore, $80 is a lot of pizza if the reports are true that it was all ordered over the course of a few weeks and consumed alone.

Finally, speaking as someone who a) knew quite a few bulimics in college, and b) spent much of her professional life around university psych departments, I can say that not all bulimics start having visible teeth problems - many (most) don't have enamel damage right away, and even when present, that alone doesn't necessarily make teeth gray.

Simply Caustic · Feb 27, 2012

telemag said:
Probably because they deliver so no cameras and she liked pizza. It's the food of choice for most college kids, I know plenty. I think people are reading too much into this. Maura used a stolen cc number to order pizza so she must be bulimic? Come on that's a huge stretch.

If the only evidence to support Maura's bullimia was that she had repeatedly (including after getting caught at WP) used stolen credit card numbers for food - I'd agree that it was a huge stretch. However, there was talk on the old Maura Murray forum (the forumer21 link - I posted it earlier in this thread) that Maura was bullimic - OR it may have been a Topix revelation (and unfortunately, if that's the case, that part of the thread is gone, so I will have no backup for my thoughts. In which case, feel free to take it with a grain of salt). In any case, it was mentioned a few times prior to Renner's revelation re: credit card fraud, but I didn't put much thought into it.
However, upon the fraud confirmation (I say confirmation, because it had been alleged years ago - but without any supporting information, I also dismissed it) - I I changed my mind.
The total on the order we know about was $17.00. This was in November of 2003. $17 was (heck, still is) a lot of pizza - and I highly doubt that Maura would have had a friend over while using a stolen card - at a minimum, we know she was alone for the 'sting' incident. So, we know, given the FOIA information, that she was alone, and ordered $17 worth of food. I do agree with you that it's not definitive, but I think it's more suggestive of bullimia, than of simply being 'hungry' that many times in a few weeks - with a stolen card.
Just my two cents, and all that.
***Quick note: I wanted to say how much I enjoy this thread, and the easy banter that goes back and forth, even when we don't all agree. It's just great to read this thread, after a headache or two from the bickering on Topix and other places***

telemag · Feb 27, 2012

Skigirl said:
We're going to have to agree to disagree, because stealing is a pretty risky act for someone who's spent a lot of time worrying about her future, and it seems to me that there would need to be more to it than just wanting a snack. Furthermore, $80 is a lot of pizza if the reports are true that it was all ordered over the course of a few weeks and consumed alone.

Finally, speaking as someone who a) knew quite a few bulimics in college, and b) spent much of her professional life around university psych departments, I can say that not all bulimics start having visible teeth problems - many (most) don't have enamel damage right away, and even when present, that alone doesn't necessarily make teeth gray.

Just wondered how you know she consumed the pizza alone. Also did she eat it all at once or over days? Thanks

Skigirl · Feb 27, 2012

I don't know that she consumed it alone, but as Simply Caustic says, you usually don't invite friends over to witness your petty crimes...and she was alone during the "sting" when the police took her picture. But you are right, she could have had ten people in her room for all I know. I just think it's sort of unlikely.

I also agree with Simply Caustic that it's refreshing to be able to have some real back and forth discussion without it getting nasty or crazy as it does in some forums!

deca · Feb 27, 2012

Simply Caustic said:
If the only evidence to support Maura's bullimia was that she had repeatedly (including after getting caught at WP) used stolen credit card numbers for food - I'd agree that it was a huge stretch. However, there was talk on the old Maura Murray forum (the forumer21 link - I posted it earlier in this thread) that Maura was bullimic - OR it may have been a Topix revelation (and unfortunately, if that's the case, that part of the thread is gone, so I will have no backup for my thoughts. In which case, feel free to take it with a grain of salt). In any case, it was mentioned a few times prior to Renner's revelation re: credit card fraud, but I didn't put much thought into it.
However, upon the fraud confirmation (I say confirmation, because it had been alleged years ago - but without any supporting information, I also dismissed it) - I I changed my mind.
The total on the order we know about was $17.00. This was in November of 2003. $17 was (heck, still is) a lot of pizza - and I highly doubt that Maura would have had a friend over while using a stolen card - at a minimum, we know she was alone for the 'sting' incident. So, we know, given the FOIA information, that she was alone, and ordered $17 worth of food. I do agree with you that it's not definitive, but I think it's more suggestive of bullimia, than of simply being 'hungry' that many times in a few weeks - with a stolen card.
Just my two cents, and all that.
***Quick note: I wanted to say how much I enjoy this thread, and the easy banter that goes back and forth, even when we don't all agree. It's just great to read this thread, after a headache or two from the bickering on Topix and other places***

Hi, a lurker on this thread here. Do we know what she ordered and from where? Because if there was a delivery charge, soda, salad, etc. $17 isn't that high. Now in 2012, all the local (non chain) pizza places here charge 17-24$ a pizza. I can see a 10$ pizza, $3 soda (they gouge you) plus a delivery charge= 17. she could eat a third a pizza and have leftovers the next day for lunch and dinner. Not anything weird in my book. She could also have invited others over to eat some. That was pretty typical college behavior in 2002 (I had just graduated from college then). I also knew people that ate like that and had a great metabolism from running.
Also, whose cc # was it? A friend's? relative's? stranger's? Is this an alleged theft or confirmed theft of the cc#? TIA!

Queen_City · Feb 27, 2012

Sorry to derail, I followed this case closely for a while but haven't checked in on it for about 6 months. Does anyone wanna fill me in on the pizza/credit card talk? I can probably just read back but cliffs would be nice too.

White Rain · Feb 27, 2012

deca said:
Hi, a lurker on this thread here. Do we know what she ordered and from where? Because if there was a delivery charge, soda, salad, etc. $17 isn't that high. Now in 2012, all the local (non chain) pizza places here charge 17-24$ a pizza. I can see a 10$ pizza, $3 soda (they gouge you) plus a delivery charge= 17. she could eat a third a pizza and have leftovers the next day for lunch and dinner. Not anything weird in my book. She could also have invited others over to eat some. That was pretty typical college behavior in 2002 (I had just graduated from college then). I also knew people that ate like that and had a great metabolism from running.
Also, whose cc # was it? A friend's? relative's? stranger's? Is this an alleged theft or confirmed theft of the cc#? TIA!

$17 doesn't seem that high to me either.....not when most toppings are usually a buck a piece......and wings, OMG are those freaking things outrageous!
This actually reminds me of a time when I called a local place (won't same name!) and I ordered for myself and a friend...well my friend wanted a calzone with ALL toppings.....and I mean your basic pep, sausage, onion, mushroom, black olive, hamburger.....not all the kinda things you can add extra these days like cheddar cheese, meatball, chicken, alfredo sauce, pineapple, etc.....
I was the one ordering for us and the girl on the other end said something along the lines of did I know ONE SINGLE CALZONE with all toppings would be over $20????? Heck no I didn't, and neither did my friend, and needless to say that calzone with ALL toppings got dropped from our order realllll quick! This was in 2001 or 2002.

McSpy · Feb 27, 2012

Skigirl said:
We're going to have to agree to disagree, because stealing is a pretty risky act for someone who's spent a lot of time worrying about her future, and it seems to me that there would need to be more to it than just wanting a snack. Furthermore, $80 is a lot of pizza if the reports are true that it was all ordered over the course of a few weeks and consumed alone.

Finally, speaking as someone who a) knew quite a few bulimics in college, and b) spent much of her professional life around university psych departments, I can say that not all bulimics start having visible teeth problems - many (most) don't have enamel damage right away, and even when present, that alone doesn't necessarily make teeth gray.

I agree. Sometimes certain medications cause enamel discoloration. It may not have anything to do with an eating disorder.

McSpy · Feb 27, 2012

White Rain said:
$17 doesn't seem that high to me either.....not when most toppings are usually a buck a piece......and wings, OMG are those freaking things outrageous!
This actually reminds me of a time when I called a local place (won't same name!) and I ordered for myself and a friend...well my friend wanted a calzone with ALL toppings.....and I mean your basic pep, sausage, onion, mushroom, black olive, hamburger.....not all the kinda things you can add extra these days like cheddar cheese, meatball, chicken, alfredo sauce, pineapple, etc.....
I was the one ordering for us and the girl on the other end said something along the lines of did I know ONE SINGLE CALZONE with all toppings would be over $20????? Heck no I didn't, and neither did my friend, and needless to say that calzone with ALL toppings got dropped from our order realllll quick! This was in 2001 or 2002.

It all depends where the restaurant is located and how much competition they have. In my area a calzone ranges from about $4.- 6. The $6. calzone is enough for 2 people.

NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 8

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