The Rest of the Story...

Thanks for the compliment Glow, I guess I come across as an advocate for women and children because most of the crimes and abuse we read about here and in the media are of crimes against women and children. I'm not saying that there aren't men and older boys who aren't abused or mistreated but that women, girls and young children are the ones who are most likely to be the victims.

This case in particular though has some serious hot spots for us all, not least the known fact that Jeffs is a RSO but also that the potential for abuse of the most vulnerable members of the sect is a clear concern because of the perceived dominance and lack of accountability of the male members of the sect. In a way that aspect reminds me a little of the struggle to get the Catholic Church to accept that it wasn't ok to sexually abuse children & then just move the offending priest on to the next parish.

I think the FLDS have to be investigated and they have to allow themselves to be open to a certain degree of scrutiny but the institutions who are conducting the investigations have themselves to be transparent and accountable in their methods and conduct.

I'm sure everyone here wants what's best for the children but also that justice is seen to be done.

Keep up the good work Glow.

Glow said:

This is defintely an interesting case isnt it Blaize? I know it has had my heart from the beginning. I have gathered from other posts that you have made in other threads that you are a great advocate for women and children. So am I. I think we all want the same thing for these children and that is the very best.

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I believe in freedom of choice. If the adult women want to be part of a polygamous sect more power to them but when they have children they have to ensure that the children aren't mistreated or abused in any way first. I guess I'm saying that their loyalty to their children should come first and their loyalty to the sect second.

This isn't meant to imply that only FLDS women are faced with these choices. How many times have we seen women stay with men who are accused of physical or sexual abuse but the quote below is still the crux of the problem now facing the courts and the investigators no matter where we stand on the issue.
(Source)

The appeals court justices ruled that Texas Child Protective Services (CPS) had "simply no evidence" of imminent abuse, certainly not enough to remove all the children at once.

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blaize said:

Thanks for the compliment Glow, I guess I come across as an advocate for women and children because most of the crimes and abuse we read about here and in the media are of crimes against women and children. I'm not saying that there aren't men and older boys who aren't abused or mistreated but that women, girls and young children are the ones who are most likely to be the victims.

This case in particular though has some serious hot spots for us all, not least the known fact that Jeffs is a RSO but also that the potential for abuse of the most vulnerable members of the sect is a clear concern because of the perceived dominance and lack of accountability of the male members of the sect. In a way that aspect reminds me a little of the struggle to get the Catholic Church to accept that it wasn't ok to sexually abuse children & then just move the offending priest on to the next parish.

I think the FLDS have to be investigated and they have to allow themselves to be open to a certain degree of scrutiny but the institutions who are conducting the investigations have themselves to be transparent and accountable in their methods and conduct.
I'm sure everyone here wants what's best for the children but also that justice is seen to be done.

Keep up the good work Glow.

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You are such a clear thinker and I totally agree with you. Any chance we could get you to a) move to Texas and b) run for office in Schleicher County?

I agree with you Blaize about supporting adult women in their choices. Even if we dont particularly like their choice. From what I hear, women who run abuse shelters deal with this on a daily basis. It is the norm to see an abused wife come in seeking shelter in the middle of the night, children in tow...only to leave a few days later to go back to her spouse who will abuse her again.

Yet there are many women who recognize the support needed even though the choice is often undesirable.

I have been a little surprised by how many main stream women have turned an indifferent eye to the women of FLDS. Even more surprised by those who are actually derisive to them. I myself cannot do that unless I have a clear reason. I just dont feel I know enough about these women. I have never met one , never talked to one etc... so how can I say with any truth that they are bad? Or brainwashed? Who am I to say that? I would drive to Texas if I thought there was a way that I could actually interview some of these women, just to see for myself. I dont think I will need to do that though. I think that now that the mainstream media is not so afraid of the "ick factor" that marked the early days of this case, there will be fair minded lawyers and health care workers that will be willing to speak out. And there will be journalists that will write their words.

One womans story,

This is Sarah's story.

Sarah is the mother of 5. She was rounded up in the raid at YFZ and held as an underage mother. She is 37. She says she didnt know whether to cry in frustration or laugh at the compliment of being assumed to be 18 at the age of 37!

Fortunately for Sarah, she is a registered nurse and is putting together a life for her children in a small apartment with a strip of a garden in the backyard.

Her husband was thrown out of FLDS leadership by Warren Jeffs and is also happy the children are out of state custody.

Sarah feels lucky in one respect, her children were all housed together, unlike many children. Her oldest daughter (13) speaks of how hard the nights were n the little ones. She says her little sister cried almost every night. Im sure that is a lie though as CPS spokes people told us they were adjusting nicely

here is the rest of Sarah's story

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700231372,00.html?pg=2

A lot of people, myself included have been wondering about the CPS and Texas LE spin on this case. One term that keeps getting bandied around about the women is "brainwashed". I guess at least some of them are not brainwashed enough that they cannot read what is being said about them. This woman can really write! She uses words I had to go look up, like escutcheon.:crazy:

Here are the words of Maggie Jessop, she sounds pretty feisty to me!

BOLDED WORDS ARE HERS

"So, you want to hear from the FLDS women, huh? Okay, you asked for it! However, I ought to warn you that I may not have it within my psychological or emotional capacity to communicate appropriately or effectively due to the widespread supposition that I belong to an uneducated, underprivileged, information-deprived, brainless, spineless, poor, picked on, dependent, misled class of women identified as “brain-washed”. But, I’ll give it my best shot."



Im sure she never heard of us here at WS but she pays homage in passing,to what we do here at websleuths!

"I don’t get a thrill by running up and down the state sleuthing out the location of my children."



Her position on child abuse:

"I would never allow my innocent children to be hurt or abused, not physically, not emotionally, not psychologically, and especially not sexually. If there was actually a “perpetrator” in my household, a person who was abusive in any way, I would be the first one to turn them in to the law. I wouldn’t stand for abuse for two seconds. How can the general public who is so saturated with moral crime point the finger at us? How can you do it with even a speck of clear conscience?"

Her thoughts on being brainwashed:

"Who is brainwashed after all, may I ask? The closest I come to being brainwashed is the fact that I have a clean mind. Excuse me, please, but I feel completely indignant that authorities in the state of Texas would insult my level of intelligence, however minimal it may be, and label me a half-wit when I have witnessed hundreds of numbskulls, CPS workers, law-enforcement officials, and even the great and the noble, the epitome of unflinching courage and timeless valor, the Texas Rangers, lower themselves so pathetically, descending in all their pride and power, without conscience responding in blind obedience to orders from the Gestapo, and they call me brainwashed? Amazing."


Her feelings:

"I don’t know how long it will take, but I will continue to lug around my fifty pound briefcase as I continue my search for my children. You know, that briefcase really ought to be a diaper bag. My day planner really ought to be filled with plans and ideas for a day of learning and improvement with my children, Besides that, my cell phone really ought to be a microphone in which to sing soft lullabies to four hundred broken-hearted children to fill their hearts with courage and the hope of a new tomorrow. My pillow really ought to be a place where I can rest my weary head after a satisfying day not a sponge of sorrow to mop and absorb the tears of a childless mother."


one more thing....

"I have eyes and ears, not to mention a big mouth, and I have a heart to feel my way through life, and I have a brain to reason and discern and choose."

gosh she is starting to sound a lot like "us" isnt she?

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=3

letter by Maggie Jessop, Mother of four children in captivity

Maggie has updated her thoughts since she found out the children would be released.

I have been trying very hard to look at the feelings and thoughts of the women who are experiencing this scrutiny of their way of life. I "thought" that I comprehended how difficult it was for them. But really I had no idea. I just had the big picture thoughts. Things like how hard it would be to have your children taken by force. How hard to have a nursing baby taken away. The guilt you would feel that your child now knows that there are some things you cant keep them safe from, that kind of thing.

But just the sheer day to day practical things I really never thought of. If someone took my child and I had to move to another town and get a job that would be traumatic. But at least I have my own things to move with me. I have my mixing bowl that makes the best bread dough and all my dishes that I am familiar with and so on. These women are having to get all of that for the first time.

I think the shock of going from a home that I live in now to trying to live in an institutional setting would be very hard for me. These women are experiencing just the opposite. They are going from a big well organized setting of communal living to having to literally start from scratch. I really had no idea.

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=46


"To make a long story short, our prior situation was such that, for example, a single kitchen equipped with many varied and quality appliances could adequately serve a dozen mothers and children; but now, with the need to scatter, that presents an interesting circumstance. Now, I need my own kitchen appliances, garden tools, office equipment, sewing commodities, etc., etc., etc., a condition of inefficiency. Now, I need to stock a home with food. I used to have a nice garden filled with home-grown vegetables, and a dairy to provide milk, butter, cheese, cream, yogurt, and ice cream. I used to have access to a wheat grinder to provide fresh wheat flour, and I also had a commercial bread mixer available to make large batches, as well as a fine commercial oven to turn out many loaves of steaming hot, fresh, wholesome bread.
I have been spoiled, I admit. I have lived very, very well in my chosen lifestyle, and now I find I must stoop to a strange and inadequate environment. I feel a little lost and bewildered, yet grateful and determined. I know that this, too, shall pass, and eventually, all wrong will be made right. I want to express my gratitude to any and all that have voiced kind and sympathetic expressions in our behalf."

I think it is an amazing dichotomy that we view them as living in opression while she felt "spoiled" by her rich life.

Glow said:

gosh she is starting to sound a lot like "us" isnt she?

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NO! Ignorance may be bliss, but it's ignorance all the same. If one chooses to live a life cut off and uninformed without choices, that's fine, but free will is also a god given right. They live lives isolated in fear. The whole set-up is to defraud, to deny rights to everyone but the elders.

FLDS Blog

Hi Lola, thank you for posting, I was lonely!
I dont like the way they isolate themselves either. Other religious groups (like the Amish) are able to live in and yet apart from modern society. I think it would fare better for the FLDS if they did that too. Do you think maybe it is the polygamy that makes them isolate? I dont think it is the money because in every religion people hand the money upwards. Religous leaders of every faith are some of the richest among us right?

Thanks again for sharing your take on things!

Ive been thinking a lot about the isolation of the FLDS women.
It does seem their isolation is by choice though. These women have cell phones iPods, blackberrys computers etc... They know what is going on. Then know that we in the outside world are calling them "brainwashed". They are responding to those statements with statements of their own.


It was interesting hearing what Dorothy Emma had to say. She must be a rare FLDS member. She was not born or married in to the church. She went seeking a faith and decided on this one.
She was not one of them when she heard of the Utah raid back in 44 but I like her style...when she heard the negativity she said
“I have never met any of these people, so I don’t feel that I can judge them.”

good on her for that.


A couple of years later she became an FLDS member. This was her impression-

These people are Builders, Workers, Thinkers, Doers—hardly the oppressed or deprived people we’ve been accused of being.

I am here of my free choice. I have never been forced or coerced. I am living a full and rewarding life. My wonderful husband and I have raised thirteen children. Each one was yearned for, planned for, prayed for, loved, and cherished. I taught in elementary schools for twenty-three years and practiced as a speech pathologist in two public schools. I have hiked many mountains and have led children and grandchildren on several long hikes. I grow herbs, teach about their properties and uses, and make all kinds of herbal “concoctions” for health and well-being. As a farmer/gardener, I've raised everything from corn and apples to gladiolus and sweet peas.
Does that sound as if I have been “brainwashed,” forced, coerced against my better judgment, or ill-treated? I say I am very blessed and privileged to be where the Lord led me, so tenderly cared for, and with my free agency well in place!

Here is the link if you want to look at her picture. She doesnt have the "odd" look that bother some. She actually looks pretty awesome and interesting.

http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=38

Glow said:

Hi Lola, thank you for posting, I was lonely!
I dont like the way they isolate themselves either. Other religious groups (like the Amish) are able to live in and yet apart from modern society. I think it would fare better for the FLDS if they did that too. Do you think maybe it is the polygamy that makes them isolate? I dont think it is the money because in every religion people hand the money upwards. Religous leaders of every faith are some of the richest among us right?

Thanks again for sharing your take on things!

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Outside of the polygamy thing, and the sicko pedophile leader, they remind me of our Lancaster County Amish... many of them relatives of mine. Although, from what I have read, the FLDS group takes in LOTS of money with public assistance, and the Amish rarely, if ever, accept welfare money.

They had to fight legally to protect their way of life as well. Allowing their children to work on the farm, younger than most kids are allowed to work. Arlen Specter was always an advocate for their rights.

They have been forced to adapt to society in some ways.. having lights on their buggies, and turn signals.

I am enjoying your posts, and links. It really is the other side of the story.

PSUfan said:

Outside of the polygamy thing, and the sicko pedophile leader, they remind me of our Lancaster County Amish... many of them relatives of mine. Although, from what I have read, the FLDS group takes in LOTS of money with public assistance, and the Amish rarely, if ever, accept welfare money.

They had to fight legally to protect their way of life as well. Allowing their children to work on the farm, younger than most kids are allowed to work. Arlen Specter was always an advocate for their rights.

They have been forced to adapt to society in some ways.. having lights on their buggies, and turn signals.

I am enjoying your posts, and links. It really is the other side of the story.

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I think knowing the Amish gives you a perspective on fundamentalist groups that mainstream America doesn't get. I had the privilege of meeting some Mennonite people in the past that helped me to look at things in a completely different way then I would have. It really is all about stretching the boundaries of our minds and our "known" world to try to encompass the thoughts and feelings of those different than ourselves. That shouldn't be hard, but in reality it seems to be the hardest thing for us to do.

Texas is receiving a lot of flack from people that believe we are persecuting the YFZ residents because of their religion, or their way of life, or their appearance. No, the focus is the continued belief among the YFZ residents that underage marriage and pregnancies is perfectly "normal". Well, it may be in other countries, but it is ILLEGAL in all 50 states of the USA. Accept it...or leave. That's pretty simple, right?

I think what is being avoided or deliberately overlooked here is the fact that the YFZ residents have CHOSEN to tie themselves to Warren Jeffs. They have CHOSEN to continue to believe in his teachings and commands. They have CHOSEN to ignore the fact that he is a CONVICTED sex offender. So, to my mind, it really doesn't matter if one or two within the group don't actually physically abuse their children. They have CHOSEN to place their children within this type of environment, therefore they are willingly and deliberately placing them in harms way. That also shows me that they are "brainwashed" because they have CHOSEN to continue to abide by Jeff's commands. Otherwise they would have left the YFZ ranch in order to live their way of life elsewhere.

Well there are a lot of unknowns about this case. For example I did not know that people are giving Texas flack. All the polls indicated that people thought what Texas did was great. To me it seems that the whole topic was divided into the FLDS supporters (mostly themselves) and the CPS supporters (A HUGE number). I have felt very alone in my viewpoint at times as I fall in between. I am not a FLDS member and dont believe their basic religious precepts even if you were to leave the under age marriage thing out of it. Once you add that in then of course I dont sponsor a thing like that. The FLDS themselves have made a public policy statement on underage marriage, they have said they will change it. What more do people want? Isnt that the problem? Havent they admitted it? Honestly up until 2005 the state of TEXAS said a girl could marry at 14. Is the state of Texas just as perverted as the FLDS or were they when they allowed a girl of 14 to marry? Is Texas a better state now that they brought the law up to 16? If so, then if the FLDS does what the state did shouldn't the whole thing be water under the bridge just like it apparently is with the state of Texas?

On the matter of Warren Jeffs. Yes he is a nutball and he is restrained. So that's good. He is limited in what he can do. One good thing that came out of this raid is that the whole hierarchy of the FLDS leadership seems to be in flux now. In reading their recent history it seems that a lot of more balanced men got run off as "trouble makers" in Warrens megalomaniac rise to power. He got where he is because of faith. Faith is the ability to believe without concrete evidence. He played (whether wittingly or unwittingly) the people around him and under him. He is a mentally ill man with delusions of grandeur in a power position within a religious structure. He is not the first. Have you ever read the history of the popes of the Catholic church? There were a few Warren Jeffs there. How about the head of the Church of England? He married young women too, only once he was done with them he chopped their heads off. That almost makes a "spiritual marriage for eternity" sound like a good thing doesn't it? Or reaching into more recent history, how about a man who enslaves a young underage girl and impregnates her? Add to that she is his wifes sister. How shocking! Yet that is what Thomas Jefferson did. So what should we do? Well according to the wisdom of the CPS of Texas we should rip his picture out of all the books we can find it in. Heck why stop there...we might as well throw out the Constitution while we are at it since his tainted hands were all over that too!

See where this is all leading? Nowhere. It leads nowhere. It takes time when you are dealing with a leader to unseat him in peoples minds. Especially when he got put in that position mostly because of faith. People need time to see him for what he is. Politics and religion always walk along hand in hand. The politics of the FLDS faith are that they are seeing now that they have to bend. The ones who have been ousted by Jeffs now see the foundation he stands on cracking. Within those "cracks" are the openings for another leader to take hold. The people that look up to them are praying and waiting to see what "God" as presented through their leaders wants them to do next. That process all takes time.

I guess the part that has me so amazed here is the hate being shown towards this group. I still cant figure out where it is coming from or what it is specifically about. Is it the underage thing soley? Well if it is then things should quiet down quickly now that they have addressed that. Is it the polygamy among consenting adults? Well, if that is the case, what a perfect opportunity for us to examine our OWN prejudices. If its not limited to those two things then it must be that they are just to "different" and that is really sad if that is what it boils down to. It wasn't that long ago that native Americans were thought to be intellectually inferior to white people and black people had to drink out of a separate fountain. I had niavely thought that as a country we had moved away from that type of thinking. I am beginning to wonder if we really have let go of our prejudices or if we have merely just "reassigned" them.

I think the "hatred" comes from what we have heard from those who escaped the FLDS. If even half of what they say is true, and I believe it is, evil permeates the air on their compounds.

It's not just polygamy or being different. They have an evil leader who has led them down the wrong path for a long time.

Hi SewingDeb,

I would think that if I wanted to know who you (SewingDeb:blowkiss really were as a person and I only asked your detractors that I wouldn't get a very clear idea of who you are. I would also need to talk to your friends and most of all YOU. Then I could get a good sense of who you are.

I have read/heard horror stories from people who have left the Catholic church too. I think a lot of us have. That doesn't make us hate the Catholic church though. Why not?

thanks for sharing your thoughts on this!

"CPS is an agency that frequently runs amok in many states, an out-of-control organization that regularly tramples on the rights of adults accused of abusing children. The horror stories of parents humiliated by the storm trooper tactics of this bunch of state bureaucrats are lengthy.
I certainly understand that CPS has an unenviable task. It is extraordinarily difficult to weed out fact from fiction, particularly in a culture where more and more children are perfectly capable of spinning tall tales in order to exact revenge upon a strict parent.
But the mantra of "protecting our children" shouldn't give a state agency the ability to shred the constitutional rights of each and every adult who comes into CPS's crosshairs.
There is obviously a peculiarity about the FLDS group. They have largely isolated themselves from the world, believing in bizarre concepts like men having numerous spiritual wives and following the teachings of the jailed "prophet" Warren Jeffs.
But when the day comes that the government comes breaking down the doors and tries to make children permanent foster or adoptive children because of the peculiar religious beliefs of a particular group, our nation is in big, big trouble.

I only hope that this fiasco will be a wake-up call to legislators and citizens about the way an agency like Child Protective Services can spin out of control and ruin people's lives right under our collective noses.
Already, the state of California has made no secret of its intention to outlaw homeschooling. It's fairly obvious that state-funded and heavily-unionized teachers don't take too kindly to loving parents who choose to educate their children at home. So could the homeschooling community in America become the next group the government goes after?
You bet your life it could.
Recently, someone shared a quote that seemed to perfectly fit what the government has been trying to do to the FLDS community in West Texas. It may very well have been spoken by one of the numerous bureaucrats who have attempted to justify this tale of the state taking all of these children from their mothers and fathers. It was written in 1925 and it said that the government can pull off pretty much anything as long as it's done under the guise of protecting the children.

Astute history students probably recognize the quote.
It was written by Adolph HItler in 'Mein Kampf.' "

http://www./columnists/MikeGallagher/2008/05/23/whose_kids_are_they_anyway?page=1

Glow I think people can't separate the FLDS from Warren Jeffs the Sex Offender. They see the FLDS as being his project where the women and children are kept barefoot and brainwashed so to speak.

It may not be right but even the mere suggestion that any of the parents tolerated Jeffs molesting their daughter or marrying her off when she was a mere kid to some old geezer really hits a sore spot for a lot of people.

It shouldn't have to be a them or us situation where the families have to repudiate their religion to live their lives safely with their children but the FLDS need to disassociate from Jeffs because that man is trouble.

I understand the point you're making about the State of Texas only raising the age that a girl could marry from fourteen to sixteen in 2005 so now that the FLDS have brought themselves into line with Texas that aspect should at least be easier to monitor.

Glow said:

Hi SewingDeb,

I would think that if I wanted to know who you (SewingDeb:blowkiss really were as a person and I only asked your detractors that I wouldn't get a very clear idea of who you are. I would also need to talk to your friends and most of all YOU. Then I could get a good sense of who you are.

I have read/heard horror stories from people who have left the Catholic church too. I think a lot of us have. That doesn't make us hate the Catholic church though. Why not?

thanks for sharing your thoughts on this!

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You're welcome. You have a good point and that's why I said if you believe only half of what you hear from those who have left. Too many are saying the same things. The lost boys really bother me. I'm sure it's not all bad but there is enough wrong that it needs correcting.

I'm glad they say the underage marriages will stop but with only needing the parents' signatures to continue it, I don't believe it really will stop. Things will go on as usual but under the watchful eye of the state. Maybe this will prevent some abuse. I hope so.

I agree with you Blaize.