NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 7

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OldSteve said:
I think I once read that Fred felt that LE came up with 75% just to deny him access to the records.... Considering it's been 5 years since this was mentioned, he may be right!
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In law I believe that you first need to prove that a crime was committed before you can prove someone committed a crime. In the case of murder 99% of the time this means that you need a body (or parts) before you may bring someone to trial. Maybe all the pieces are in place, they just need a body? Have they ever searched anyone's private property with a warrant?
 
Weird Tolkienish F said:
In law I believe that you first need to prove that a crime was committed before you can prove someone committed a crime. In the case of murder 99% of the time this means that you need a body (or parts) before you may bring someone to trial. Maybe all the pieces are in place, they just need a body? Have they ever searched anyone's private property with a warrant?
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I don't think there were any search warrants issued on this case.
 
Weird Tolkienish F said:
In law I believe that you first need to prove that a crime was committed before you can prove someone committed a crime. In the case of murder 99% of the time this means that you need a body (or parts) before you may bring someone to trial. Maybe all the pieces are in place, they just need a body? Have they ever searched anyone's private property with a warrant?
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I think LE may have some circumstantial evidence along with a gut feeling about someone, but not enough for a Judge's approval for a search warrant. Since there is no body, no evidence of a crime scene, or any witnesses of a crime, LE could be just working on gut feelings and scant evidence, but it isn't enough to move forward.

I'm just guessing on this.
 
OldSteve said:
I think I once read that Fred felt that LE came up with 75% just to deny him access to the records.... Considering it's been 5 years since this was mentioned, he may be right!
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You could be right, but maybe after LE talked to a few people about Maura's disappearance, they ran into something that didn't add up. Perhaps, someone lied about their whereabouts at the time or some other untruths were told.
Just a thought.
 
Weird Tolkienish F said:
There was a weird unexplained triple drowning about 5 miles away from Maura's accident the summer before she disappeared:

N.H. authorities baffled at triple drowning
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Tragic! To me, it looks like the kids may have got into trouble in the deep water. The mom tried to save them, but the kids panicked and dragged her under the water by hanging on her. It's one of the dangers of trying to rescue drowning victims.
 
Emma24 said:
I guess we only have the word of the bus driver that she didn't go with him. Maybe she got into his bus.
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I have mixed feeling about the school bus driver (SBD) from all I've read over the years. He was the last person to see her and actually id her. Her last steps were traced to just in front of his driveway by tracking dogs.

It would be interesting to stand outside that location on a similiar night an see how many cars go by. Of course, it only took one...
 
OldSteve said:
I have mixed feeling about the school bus driver (SBD) from all I've read over the years. He was the last person to see her and actually id her. Her last steps were traced to just in front of his driveway by tracking dogs.

It would be interesting to stand outside that location on a similiar night an see how many cars go by. Of course, it only took one...
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I had thought it was in the opposite direct? Look at Google maps at the crash site, the dogs tracked her to right in front of Bradley Hill Road... is that where his house is? I thought it was the opposite way? It's hard to see the SBD as a suspect because he called police ASAP and had a wife, etc. My gut reaction to seeing his interview on Disappeared was that he was not involved other than talking to her.
 
Weird Tolkienish F said:
I had thought it was in the opposite direct? Look at Google maps at the crash site, the dogs tracked her to right in front of Bradley Hill Road... is that where his house is? I thought it was the opposite way? It's hard to see the SBD as a suspect because he called police ASAP and had a wife, etc. My gut reaction to seeing his interview on Disappeared was that he was not involved other than talking to her.
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Lots to read, especially what "peripeteia" has to say at
http://findmauramurray.21.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=38

The above thread and all the others there is mind-boggling!
 
Emma24 said:
I guess we only have the word of the bus driver that she didn't go with him. Maybe she got into his bus.
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The neighbors, who were looking out their window, saw the bus leave and saw Maura still with the car.
 
Weird Tolkienish F said:
I had thought it was in the opposite direct? Look at Google maps at the crash site, the dogs tracked her to right in front of Bradley Hill Road... is that where his house is? I thought it was the opposite way? It's hard to see the SBD as a suspect because he called police ASAP and had a wife, etc. My gut reaction to seeing his interview on Disappeared was that he was not involved other than talking to her.
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I believe he lived right near the corner of Rt. 112 and Bradley Hill Road. I also don't think he had anything to do with her disappearance. He didn't have enough time to do anything. IIRC, the contractor, who said he saw Maura running several miles up Rt. 112, lived across the street from the bus driver. I'm a little more suspicious of him.
 
McSpy said:
The neighbors, who were looking out their window, saw the bus leave and saw Maura still with the car.
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It's interesting that at the most critical time after the accident, no one was looking out their window or from their bus to see what was going on. That point seems very strange to me.

We've had similiar accidents/crashes occur in front and near our house - after calling the police, the wife and I, and all the other neighbors are outside, looking out windows... and we are in a city.... One would think out in the sticks, people would even be more concerned, or simply curious enough to watch until LE arrived... another point, when we call the police we will tell them the condition of the person(s), and things like - the person appears dazed, or is in danger of be struck by another car.... also, when it's just a woman involved, my wife seems to instinctively want to help all the more... so while I can understand the men staying back, it's strange again that no women came to Maura's aid...

The scenario is :banghead: - I mean, can you picture it..... Oh, there's a car that crashed into a snow bank and there's a woman inside the car.... she appears dazed.... honey, call the police..... now let's see what on TV...
 
Okay, I'm almost finished reading the book that Maura had with her. It's fascinating even though I'm not a hiker (think I want to try it), have never seen the White Mountains. But I just don't see how one could think the book was an indication she wanted to commit suicide. Given that she and her Dad often hiked in those mountains, I can see when she did many of those trails using the book for a reference "this is where so and so happened." Many of us here when crimes happen around us, we go and check it out for ourselves....it's just some sort of personality trait we share. The book makes very clear that winter is a treacherous time there and one has to be careful but winter hiking can be done with prudence. If one loves the lore of the land, one would appreciate this book. It certainly would fall in the reference category...I find myself flipping back and forth between chapters at times.
 
OldSteve said:
It's interesting that at the most critical time after the accident, no one was looking out their window or from their bus to see what was going on. That point seems very strange to me.

We've had similiar accidents/crashes occur in front and near our house - after calling the police, the wife and I, and all the other neighbors are outside, looking out windows... and we are in a city.... One would think out in the sticks, people would even be more concerned, or simply curious enough to watch until LE arrived... another point, when we call the police we will tell them the condition of the person(s), and things like - the person appears dazed, or is in danger of be struck by another car.... also, when it's just a woman involved, my wife seems to instinctively want to help all the more... so while I can understand the men staying back, it's strange again that no women came to Maura's aid...

The scenario is :banghead: - I mean, can you picture it..... Oh, there's a car that crashed into a snow bank and there's a woman inside the car.... she appears dazed.... honey, call the police..... now let's see what on TV...
Click to expand...

If you go to Google street view of the area, and then watch the Disappeared episode and listen to where Fred Murray said the car was, you'll see that it's in an awkward spot and not really within easy viewing from the house.
 
OldSteve said:
It's interesting that at the most critical time after the accident, no one was looking out their window or from their bus to see what was going on. That point seems very strange to me.
Click to expand...
This leads me to something I've always wondered about this case. Does anyone know what the people are like in that part of the world? Just as OldSteve mentions, no one seemed to be paying much attention despite the fact a young woman was stuck on the side of the road. And besides that, there is the LE response to Maura's disappearance, which seems to be a general reluctance to investigate starting from day one.

Is that a place where everyone minds their own business? Do they have a particularly strong strain of individualism in NH? Are outsiders frowned upon?
 
Copper said:
This leads me to something I've always wondered about this case. Does anyone know what the people are like in that part of the world? Just as OldSteve mentions, no one seemed to be paying much attention despite the fact a young woman was stuck on the side of the road. And besides that, there is the LE response to Maura's disappearance, which seems to be a general reluctance to investigate starting from day one.

Is that a place where everyone minds their own business? Do they have a particularly strong strain of individualism in NH? Are outsiders frowned upon?
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I am not going to speak for everyone in NH and I live about an hour away from where Maura crashed, however, when accidents happen, people get pulled over, (mind you, police are already there)... I may look out my window, stand on my step, but I go back in my home and leave it to them.
If I saw an accident and police had not come... I would go out and see if there was anything I could do.
I have been to the site of Maura's accident, met her family, posted fliers... It is isolated, yet I have wondered the same thing... why did NO one go out to help and STAY with her...
 
findlorne said:
I am not going to speak for everyone in NH and I live about an hour away from where Maura crashed, however, when accidents happen, people get pulled over, (mind you, police are already there)... I may look out my window, stand on my step, but I go back in my home and leave it to them.
If I saw an accident and police had not come... I would go out and see if there was anything I could do.
I have been to the site of Maura's accident, met her family, posted fliers... It is isolated, yet I have wondered the same thing... why did NO one go out to help and STAY with her...
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BBM - thanks for your info on this, and that is the part that baffles me - leaving her alone like that....
 
findlorne said:
I am not going to speak for everyone in NH and I live about an hour away from where Maura crashed, however, when accidents happen, people get pulled over, (mind you, police are already there)... I may look out my window, stand on my step, but I go back in my home and leave it to them.
If I saw an accident and police had not come... I would go out and see if there was anything I could do.
I have been to the site of Maura's accident, met her family, posted fliers... It is isolated, yet I have wondered the same thing... why did NO one go out to help and STAY with her...
Click to expand...

I think there were only 2 couples and the bus driver, who noticed the accident. I believe at least one of the couples were elderly. They were probably reluctant to go outside and help, because they live in a very dark and isolated area. They also witnessed the bus driver conversing with Maura, so they may have thought he was handling it. The other couple (the Westmans), who lived the closest to the accident scene disagreed amongst each other on whether the driver was male or female. They also noticed the bus driver talk to the driver. Mrs. Westman did call police. Since the area is very dark (no street lights) and isolated, in my opinion, there was a reluctance to run outdoors to check out the scene. I can see more action from neighbors in a suburban setting, not so much in rural isolated areas.
Just a thought.
 
I've lived in similar areas in northern New England. A car in the snowbank is a very common thing. If I knew that the bus driver had checked on the driver and that LE was on the way, I probably would go on about my business.
 
I feel bad for the bus driver. I really think he attempted to do the right thing, and it has just caused him grief. I'm 2 years younger than Maura Murray and I've done some stupid things while drunk and even sober. When I read her story, I feel lucky to be alive. I once freaked out by the Phillies stadium after a cop told me I needed to find my friends. I was so drunk I couldn't even work a phone. I ended up leaving my friends phone and mine on the curb while I ran from the cop - I was scared he would arrest me. I jumped into the back of a random persons van and ended up in another state. Some how I got home alive that night, but it was basically a miracle. If Maura was drinking and driving (which it sounds like) she was probably freaked out. She may have hopped in the wrong car in an attempt to keep her DUI a secret.
I had a 1993 Saturn - it was an odd car. I literally hit a car while I was rolling forward at a red light (I didn't have my foot completely on the brake). The car in front of me had a metal hitch. It caught the hood of my car which folded up like an accordion. The sides of my Saturn were really stable and built for safety. It was hit while I was in the passenger side of the car by a van. There wasn't a dent in my car - and my door some how survived. Saturn's can be weird when they're in an accident.
 
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