17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #15

Chris_Texas said:

BBM

Following someone is not aggressive? I disagree. It might not be illegal, though I suspect following a child is in many places, but it is without a doubt both aggressive and threatening. I bet you would be frightened if someone was simply following you in your car, I know I would, let alone having some creepy dude driving and then running after you at night in the rain. In all honesty, I am a guy who's been in more fights than Zimmerman has years, and even so that would scare the heeby jeebies out of me. I'd figure the next BTK was after me. I cannot imagine how freaked out I would have been as a kid.

The person in this case who had every reason to be afraid was TM. He was the one being followed, he was the one alone in the rain, unarmed. Zimmerman was the guy with the car and gun following him.

What Zimmerman's defenders seem to want to claim is that he had the right to pursue anyone he liked (which he did), scare the hell out of them (which he did), ignore police instructions to stop (which he did), and if his prey became frightened enough to defend themselves (which might have happened), Zimmerman could then legally kick their butts (if he could) or kill them (if he failed)...

And either way call it self defense. It's ridiculous in my opinion.

If TM waited in ambush and brained Zimmerman with a brick as he went slinking past, Trayvon would be correctly able to claim self defense. He RAN and the guy kept following him, he hid and the guy tried to hunt him down.

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LOL...what I meant was just following someone down the street is not aggressive. Seeking them out, looking for them, checking to see if they are hiding somewhere and finding them is stalking. Just walking down the street with someone ahead of you is not stalking. Having a reason to follow them to prevent them from doing something is aggressive. In GZ's mind is the thought, I'm not letting this one get away. In TM's mind he's thinking why is this pervert following me. TM is thinking he is being stalked. He asks the very question that shows he is fearful.....why are you following me?? At that point TM is on alert for GZ to make a move on him. And I'll bet you a Snickers bar that is exactly what happened. jmo

Kimberlyd125 said:

I wouldn't think so.

I see no reason why she would.

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If there is a lawsuit, it would be filed against the legal entity for the Homeowner's Association. Unless the GF is an officer for the HOA, this would not affect her.

I looked at www.sunbiz.org, but couldn't find that they are actually a registered entity in FL. There are a few other Twin Lakes HOAs, but not one in Sanford.

Since they are not a legal entity, they most likely do not have any liability or D&O (Directors and Officers) insurance. Without D&O, if a lawsuit is awarded, it can be paid out of the individual officers' personal assets (home, etc.).

vlpate said:

"The call sheets show that five of seven phone calls Zimmerman had made since last August involved what he viewed as suspicious activity by young men identified as "black males." But the call sheets do not indicate whether Zimmerman was asked about the race of the suspects or volunteered that information."

Many of these calls are backed up by eye witness accounts using the same descriptions and documented in separate police reports (linked often in these threads). I find it hard to believe the FBI would only go back to August - clearly, prior to August, there were descriptions of white and Hispanic individuals as well. The rash of burglaries and break-ins escalated in August - eyewitness statements pointed to young black males. As far as the residents who stated Zimmerman had warned them of black males committing crimes in their gated community - he was telling the truth, no profiling.

My guess is the FBI has enhanced the 911 tape and found no racial slur. <modsnip>

JMO

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I have no idea what the FBI has found on the 911 tape and am interested in finding out. While the spinners from both sides pat themselves on the back it does appear that GZ has had help in the past getting around things and has in this case too. Had TM's parents not spoken up this too would of been swept under the rug. This case deserves a real investigation, one devoid of emotion, prejudice, slap my hand and I'll slap yours and users trying to make a buck or promote their cause. To speak of the killer of a teenager getting rich off of ending his young life is repugnant. What a world.

Originally Posted by gxm
Interesting. IMO, that seems to support GZ's claim that he was initially attacked from behind.

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The wounds on the top of GZ's head could also be from TM being underneath GZ on the ground, and TM reaching up and on top of GZ's head to hit him to get him off of him.

So do you honestly think GZ was following TM, then TM turned it into a game of hide and seek and started following GZ?

Fact is, GZ did not know every resident or every invited visitor in the neighborhood.

If he was worried for he and his wife's safety, why not stay home and protect his own property? Why go out in the neighborhood looking for 'suspects' (which IMO, is anyone that GZ felt shouldn't be there).

There was no problem that night until GZ went looking for one.

I personally see lots of young men (teens too) wear hooded sweaters with their hoods up and it's not raining and they will go into businesses if they can get away with it, There is a reason why banks and some other business's that will have signs saying to drop the hood and glasses or don't come in. I have been asking friends about the "hoodie" and when they can remember when it was "fashionable" all of the sudden to wear the hood up. They just get blank stares. lol When I think back to when I remember seeing the hooded sweat shirt being worn in a way that gave the look of menacing was "the uni-bomber" from 1978-1995 then sometime after that ? I remember that the crime section of the paper started calling them "hoodies" and all the reports of crimes would be the "suspects had on hoodies" so there was not a description. And it works. I called the police about two months back 3:00 in the morning 2 guys ? in "hoodies" in my truck. When the cop asked for a description, 2 ten guys in gray hoodies. they did not catch them. jmo I don't like hoodies and I am leery of individuals that wear them, just no reason. I know it was raining it's still a "style" and I don't like it.

csziggy said:

I've been thinking GZ is either a psychic or a pyschopath. Toss :twocents: to decide which! :floorlaugh:

JMO. :waitasec:

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I think he's the baby of the family and has always been protected. I saw a video of the interview with his brother Robert and my first thought was he looks like Lee Anthony. Older brothers tend to feel responsible for their younger siblings. jmo

&#8220;I have never seen such an incompetent investigation,&#8221; said Walt Zalisko, a former Jersey City police commander who now owns a police management consulting company in Central Florida. &#8220;There are so many problems with this case. The problem up here is that officers receive very little training, and there is very little understanding of diversity issues.
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/...ission-votes-no-confidence.html#storylink=cpy

Above BBM...

I couldn't agree more. I was fortunate to attend cultural diversity, empathy and nonviolent crisis intervention training when I worked in the Public school system. It was very helpful to me as we had a culturally diverse student population. There are a few points from this training that I can think of offhand in relation to this case.

AA citizens are particular about their hair. (Tray took cover from the rain to pull up his hoodie over his hair.) Rain can wreak havoc on an AA persons hair regardless of the length. Another thing I learned is that the AA community is a very loyal to one another in times of grief or crisis. The whole community grieves together and supports one another during trying times. The 'black man code' does exist and I have experienced this firsthand but will spare you the personal story.

Our Hispanic caucasian citizens don't have hangups about personal space and will address a person up close and personal. (a close talker so to speak) Life revolves around a close knit family unit. In contrast, European caucasians have an invisible personal space which may give the impression of being standoffish to other cultures. AA citizens have an invisible personal space but are quick to speak up if need be. It makes me wonder if Trayvon was following the 'code' by attempting to elude GZ and if GZ made TM feel if his personal space was violated and it escalated from there.

I hope it isn't inappropriate to share this info because I don't mean for it to come off as profiling or racist or offensive. But in looking back at my notes I do wonder if this whole tragedy wasn't spawned from cultural misunderstanding and created the perfect storm.

IMO, the Sanford LEA could benefit from diversity training. It certainly helped me to empathize with and understand my students.

I am unable to share my materials because it is proprietary information so take this info
FWIW.

moo

wm

LambChop said:

Not always repeatedly. All they have to do is fear:

&#8220;Credible threat&#8221; means a threat made with the intent to cause the person who is the target of the threat to reasonably fear for his or her safety. The threat must be against the life of, or a threat to cause bodily injury to, a person."

That could be once. Clearly TM was GZ target and he was following him. jmo

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And it has to be malicious, repeated, and willful, per the stalking statute...

I wanted to bring this over from the last thread and respond:

Originally Posted by Reader
IF the girl heard the rest of what happened it may be VERY favorable to TM and they are giving that info for the FBI investigation. Why should they give out information publicly to GZ's lawyer?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7747767&postcount=650

codecracker:
GZ lawyer will get it reguardless. If GZ is charged they can't hide the evidence against him from his lawyer.

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I realize that the evidence will be under 'discovery' rules once a trial begins (hopefully), but that is not what I meant.

The girl was traumatized by what happened and what she heard. Her parents want to keep her anonymous for as long as possible but have allowed this much to come out.

Maybe she didn't hear anymore and maybe she heard it all until Trayvon was killed. Why should that information be given out PUBLICLY now when we don't even know if there will be a trial or not, and expose the girl to further stress? If she testifies at a trial there will be plenty of opportunity then to discuss it.

highflyer said:

I have no idea what the FBI has found on the 911 tape and am interested in finding out. While the spinners from both sides pat themselves on the back it does appear that GZ has had help in the past getting around things and has in this case too. Had TM's parents not spoken up this too would of been swept under the rug. This case deserves a real investigation, one devoid of emotion, prejudice, slap my hand and I'll slap yours and users trying to make a buck or promote their cause. To speak of the killer of a teenager getting rich off of ending his young life is repugnant. What a world.

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FBI was in the Sanford neighborhood today interviewing residents. Sounds like they did listen to the tape. jmo

Reader said:

I wanted to bring this over from the last thread and respond:



I realize that the evidence will be under 'discovery' rules once a trial begins (hopefully), but that is not what I meant.

The girl was traumatized by what happened and what she heard. Her parents want to keep her anonymous for as long as possible but have allowed this much to come out.

Maybe she didn't hear anymore and maybe she heard it all until Trayvon was killed. Why should that information be given out PUBLICLY now when we don't even know if there will be a trial or not, and expose the girl to further stress? If she testifies at a trial there will be plenty of opportunity then to discuss it.

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I read her parents are trying to protect her.......gee, I wonder why???? jmo

LambChop said:

Mr. Martin said LE showed him where TM's body was lying on the ground. Why would LE lie to him? It's not hearsay if the officer showing him was there that night. jmo

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LC I am jumping off our post, not replying to it.
IMHO talk about Mr. Martins account of his son’s last walk was given to him by police.
SO...all of you are having a crazy conversation IMHO.
It is hard enough for Mr. Martin to go there.
He may have memorized it all word for word as the account was given,
he may have also forgotten something’s and is translating it based on how he is putting the piece together.
HOW DOES IT MATTER WHAT HE SAYS about TM’s last walk?
He is hurt, and his account is not the account that will be heard at a trial.

WHY are we dissecting his account of it all? At the worst he can be a touch off.
Can someone explain WHY - is there any merit to it. Maybe I am missing something.

suzihawk said:

RBBM: "That morning"?! What morning? As in after the fact it was decided not to charge him?

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I would think he was there for hours so anytime after 12AM would be morning.

itsreenw said:

The wounds on the top of GZ's head could also be from TM being underneath GZ on the ground, and TM reaching up and on top of GZ's head to hit him to get him off of him.

So do you honestly think GZ was following TM, then TM turned it into a game of hide and seek and started following GZ?

Fact is, GZ did not know every resident or every invited visitor in the neighborhood.

If he was worried for he and his wife's safety, why not stay home and protect his own property? Why go out in the neighborhood looking for 'suspects' (which IMO, is anyone that GZ felt shouldn't be there).

There was no problem that night until GZ went looking for one.

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What I think is that we'll never know what happened that night. However, GZ's story is supported by the evidence. We can each decide whether to believe GZ is telling the truth or not. IMO, I just don't know and, with the evidence to date, I have to side with reasonable doubt.

mikeysmommom said:

I would think he was there for hours so anytime after 12AM would be morning.

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Perhaps. I'd be most interested to know exactly what time he was allowed to go home.

suzihawk said:

RBBM: "That morning"?! What morning? As in after the fact it was decided not to charge him?

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Not necessarily. That 'morning' could have been at 1 am. What time was GZ released from custody?

songline said:

LC I am jumping off our post, not replying to it.
IMHO talk about Mr. Martins account of his son’s last walk was given to him by police.
SO...all of you are having a crazy conversation IMHO.
It is hard enough for Mr. Martin to go there.
He may have memorized it all word for word as the account was given,
he may have also forgotten something’s and is translating it based on how he is putting the piece together.
HOW DOES IT MATTER WHAT HE SAYS about TM’s last walk?
He is hurt, and his account is not the account that will be heard at a trial.

WHY are we dissecting his account of it all? At the worst he can be a touch off.
Can someone explain WHY - is there any merit to it. Maybe I am missing something.

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ITA. People keep focusing on each family's account as if it's actual testimony that will be admitted at trial. None of them were there that night. Very little, probably none, of what both families and the family friends are saying to the press is evidence.

gxm said:

What I think is that we'll never know what happened that night. However, GZ's story is supported by the evidence. We can each decide whether to believe GZ is telling the truth or not. IMO, I just don't know and, with the evidence to date, I have to side with reasonable doubt.

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Supported by evidence?

He says he was beaten up and his head was repeatedly smashed on the sidewalk. The video evidence certainly doesn't seem to substantiate this. The body's position doesn't seem to support this.

He says he was the one yelling for help. Two voice experts say that it was NOT him.

Originally Posted by Reader
I wanted to bring this over from the last thread and respond:

I realize that the evidence will be under 'discovery' rules once a trial begins (hopefully), but that is not what I meant.

The girl was traumatized by what happened and what she heard. Her parents want to keep her anonymous for as long as possible but have allowed this much to come out.

Maybe she didn't hear anymore and maybe she heard it all until Trayvon was killed. Why should that information be given out PUBLICLY now when we don't even know if there will be a trial or not, and expose the girl to further stress? If she testifies at a trial there will be plenty of opportunity then to discuss it.

FROM SONGLINE

According to her account, the phone did go dead,
NO I would not believe if later, she supposedly heard the
entire thing to the end.

Her parents should keep her anonymous,
I am not so sure about anything at all,
and she does not need people calling,
paying her to say it like this or like that.
PEOPLE WOULD do that. Best she be hidden.

AS IT IS:
being that her story came out after she learned that TM is dead,
makes me question.

songline said:

Trayvon lived in Miami with his mom and arrived the day before the incident. So he was a visitor, not a resident. he had 10 day time out from school, and his father had planned to spend some time with the boy and straighten him out. Just because his Dad lived with his GF at this community does not mean it was home to Travon.

I love this posts that say things as if they are facts.
So to GZ he looked like a new person in the area.
GZ did not follow him because he is new. GZ suspected him for some reason
that is why he followed him.

I wish they spoke during their FIRST encounter when GZ was still in the Car.
IF EITHER ONE SPOKE instead of dodging each other.
I am visiting my Dad, Or I am the neighborhood watchman.

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I read that the father said Trayvon had come up to stay there before with him, so he was not a complete stranger to the complex. And since GZ was the 'watchman' and adult in the situation, to me it was his responsibility to identify himself and ask Trayvon politely who he was and where he was going, if that was his purpose in watching. Trayvon had no idea who this man watching and following him was and why he was doing it. So, yes, a simple contact would have prevented this situation from developing into this tragedy. But IMO, GZ had no intention to simply watch, he was determined to get one of those who 'always get away'.