17-yo Teen Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #7

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rotterdam said:
Well, there are really a couple of factors that could make you go south while losing your balance. If GZ would have been stone drunk, it would not take too much to floor him. Also the wet grass could be a factor while trying to balance. Still it takes some force to knock a person over and the more weight the more force required.
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When someone is punched in the nose, no matter their size, there is a stunned feeling.

Size does not matter.

A punch to the nose can drop the biggest people to their knees.
 
claudicici said:
wow,so you guys are really making this a black against white issue,when it was much more arguable a white against black issue to begin with.I'm speechless.
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No one has said that. There's just a clear polarization coming from certain talking figureheads. The Black Panthers put a bounty on Zimmerman's head, even. They then trashed the new prosecutor that was appointed to the case. How you can sit back and say that certain individuals have not made sides in this, I'm not sure. There are certainly individuals that have introduced themselves to this tragedy that have clearly desired to make this "Us and them".

The only side anyone should be on is that of seeking justice.
 
m00c0w said:
So are you saying that it wouldn't be easy for a police officer to say that they did not come up with probable cause to arrest someone, and explain their way out of it? To me, that's more subjective than objective. It's not like there are specific, objective criteria that must be satisfied in order for PC to be met, or not be met. It all hinges on those making the decisions....
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If your point is that a determination of probable cause depends on human judgment and humans are fallible, humans sometimes lie, you'll get no argument from me.

But that is NOT the same as saying the criteria are subjective. The criteria for probable cause is that more evidence points to guilt than to innocence. That is an objective question, even though it may be distorted by individuals and their subjective biases.
 
Adrienne37 said:
Is there not an answer for the question that I asked? How, if Zimmerman was out of his vehicle looking at a street sign, did he end up so far away from his vehicle on a sidewalk that was slap dab in the middle of two rows of condos? Did Trayvon sucker punch him then proceed to drag him all that distance away from his vehicle?
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That was the second version of the story that has been heard.

The first one was that he was dragged out of his car.
Then he had to look for a street sign,
Then he had turned back and was headed back to his car when Trayvon jumped him.

None of them make sense in light of the where the shooting took place, since it was far away from where Zimmerman's vehicle would have been parked.

Not only that but they showed the actual timeline, and from the end of Trayvons call when the phone went dead, to the shooting was actually only 60 seconds, the timeline is extremely tight. Zimmerman had to go from zero to afraid for his life from an unarmed teen in one minute....
 
3 stories Zimmerman has told according to Natalie Jackson (family attorney) on NG:

1. Zimmerman was dragged out of car
2. Zimmerman got out to look at street sign and was attacked
3. Zimmerman lost sight of Trayvon, and Trayvon circled around and attacked him (the most current story

Transcripts should be available at some point...I think if he told the first story, this is gonna get really ugly.

JMO
 
In trying to work my way through what Zimmerman has said, I keep coming back to what is a stumbling block for me. As nearly as I can understand what both Zimmerman told LE and what the boy's father says in the video at this article:

http://www.thegrio.com/specials/tra...timeline-leaves-many-unanswered-questions.php

TMRoute.png


Trayvon ducked under the roof at the complex's clubhouse because it was raining. At some point, he began walking in the direction shown to a back sidewalk running between the buildings toward the back door where he was staying, 70 yards away.

Whether Zimmerman was following him in his car, or just sitting and watching him, he would have had an unencumbered line of sight for Trayvon's path of travel from the clubhouse to where the sidewalk turns between the buildings.

This is apparently where Zimmerman lost sight of him and where his statements to LE start to muddy the water for me.

Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com..._1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager
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If, as he says, he started walking back to his vehicle after losing sight of the boy, with Trayvon catching up with him at some point to exchange words, why was the body found several yards down the sidewalk from where Zimmerman apparently lost sight of him? If Zimmerman turned to go back to his car, why would the body be where I've indicated and where Trayvon's father said he fell, 70 yards from his back door?
 
m00c0w said:
There's no evidence he followed Martin after the dispatcher told him to stop. Please provide it if it exists. TIA
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Again, we really do not know. There is one minute approx. that nobody knows for sure what happened. After being off the phone with the dispatcher, he could have started running/walking again and we do not know in which direction GZ was going. We only have his version as to what happened.
 
Nova said:
If your point is that a determination of probable cause depends on human judgment and humans are fallible, humans sometimes lie, you'll get no argument from me.

But that is NOT the same as saying the criteria are subjective. The criteria for probable cause is that more evidence points to guilt than to innocence. That is an objective question, even though it may be distorted by individuals and their subjective biases.
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Objective-
5. not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts;
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http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/objective

In a perfect world, it would be purely objective. However, it's often not. As I stated, there are certain times when PC is very clear-cut. Most of the time, however, it's left up to the officer and prosecutor to decide by interpreting what they have. That is subjective.
 
HiHater said:
3 stories Zimmerman has told according to Natalie Jackson (family attorney) on NG:

1. Zimmerman was dragged out of car
2. Zimmerman got out to look at street sign and was attacked
3. Zimmerman lost sight of Trayvon, and Trayvon circled around and attacked him (the most current story

Transcripts should be available at some point...I think if he told the first story, this is gonna get really ugly.

JMO
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Operative word: family attorney.

He's doing his job.

I'd rather wait for the reports to come out.

JMO
 
Kimberlyd125 said:
Operative word: family attorney.

He's doing his job.

I'd rather wait for the reports to come out.

JMO
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I am taking it with a grain of salt as well. I am pretty sure that's the same lawyer that said two shots can be heard on 911 call. Whereas there is one shot can be heard and only one bullet missing from the gun (according to police).
 
They are now saying on NG there are pictures supposedly taken of GZ that night on an I-phone that will prove he was beaten up by TM.. Wonder WHY this evidence wasn't produced before now...JMHO
 
Sensei said:
That was the second version of the story that has been heard.

The first one was that he was dragged out of his car.
Then he had to look for a street sign,
Then he had turned back and was headed back to his car when Trayvon jumped him.

None of them make sense in light of the where the shooting took place, since it was far away from where Zimmerman's vehicle would have been parked.

Not only that but they showed the actual timeline, and from the end of Trayvons call when the phone went dead, to the shooting was actually only 60 seconds, the timeline is extremely tight. Zimmerman had to go from zero to afraid for his life from an unarmed teen in one minute....
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Thanks Sensei. Well I'm guessing then that unless there was a street sign right smack dab in the middle of those condos next to that sidewalk, then Zimmerman had absolutely no reason whatsoever to be back there unless he was following Trayvon which he was told not to do. I guess it's possible that Trayvon was not only strong as heck to be able to punch him down but he was faster than the bionic man to be able to drag him all that distance.


~jmo~
 
Emeralgem said:
They are now saying on NG there are pictures supposedly taken of GZ that night on an I-phone that will prove he was beaten up by TM.. Wonder WHY this evidence wasn't produced before now...JMHO
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:floorlaugh:

As I stated, he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. People ask for pictures, "Why did they just come out now?!" He doesn't release pictures, "Why hasn't he released pictures?!"

He's better off just sitting on his couch, keeping his head down.
 
Do we know anything about Zimmerman’s ‘friend’ Joe Oliver, who speaks so extensively for him? Said he hadn’t spoken with GZ but seems he’s coming out with new info every day. Is he a lawyer or PR person or what is his occupation? Is it ok to sleuth him since he speaks for GZ? I’m ultra-suspicious that Oliver doesn’t know/didn’t know GZ personally but was hired by GZ’s savvy father-judge to handle media (like van der sloot father-judge covering up). jmo.
 
Nova said:
His call to LE suggests it did.
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No it doesn't. He was asked and he answered, black. Black and a$$ holes are not racist terms. If you are referring to the enhanced version of the 911 call, the jury is still out. Nothing in his call suggested he was racist.
 
m00c0w said:
:floorlaugh:

As I stated, he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. People ask for pictures, "Why did they just come out now?!" He doesn't release pictures, "Why hasn't he released pictures?!"

He's better off just sitting on his couch, keeping his head down.
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IMHO.. I don't care IF he stays on the couch or not, however I do think he needs to hang his head in shame...JMHO
 
m00c0w said:
No one has said that. There's just a clear polarization coming from certain talking figureheads. The Black Panthers put a bounty on Zimmerman's head, even. They then trashed the new prosecutor that was appointed to the case. How you can sit back and say that certain individuals have not made sides in this, I'm not sure. There are certainly individuals that have introduced themselves to this tragedy that have clearly desired to make this "Us and them".

The only side anyone should be on is that of seeking justice.
Click to expand...

I think Zimmerman made it a racial issue when he found a black teenager suspicious and when he called him a "*advertiser censored** coon" on the 911 call.That why you can't blame "certain individuals" of getting involved .
Other than that I agree it should be about justice ,regardless of race,age ,gender or choice of clothes you should be able to walk down a street and not be followed by an armed civilian.
 
m00c0w said:
There's no evidence he followed Martin after the dispatcher told him to stop. Please provide it if it exists. TIA
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What exists is common sense, the timing is everything. If Zimmerman has ceased following and attempted to return to his vehicle when the dispatcher said "you don't need to do that" then HOW did he get to the area where Trayvons body was found, His 911 call was at 7:04, the 911 call marking the gunshot was recorded at 7:15, and the dispatcher told him not to follow well before the call ended, so there is no way he stopped following when the dispacher told him to or he would have been back at his car and none of this would have taken place....we know when he left the car, so there is no way he was half way down the sidewalk before that happened IMO...JMHO and stuff
 
francie said:
Do we know anything about Zimmerman’s ‘friend’ Joe Oliver, who speaks so extensively for him? Said he hadn’t spoken with GZ but seems he’s coming out with new info every day. Is he a lawyer or PR person or what is his occupation? Is it ok to sleuth him since he speaks for GZ? I’m ultra-suspicious that Oliver doesn’t know/didn’t know GZ personally but was hired by GZ’s savvy father-judge to handle media (like van der sloot father-judge covering up). jmo.
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BBM

I was pretty sure he's said multiple times he's talked with Zimmerman. Do you have a link where he says he has not, recently?
 
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