17 yo Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #15

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kimpage said:
Does anyone know who was the lead detective on the scene???? On MSNBC they had a witness who said the lead detective told her that is was not self-defense and that there was Racial profiling going on.....IMHO JHMO So much reporting i am getting confuzzled IMHO
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That is a reference to Sanford police Detective Chris Serino. The woman, who was not a witness, but is the mother of a 13-year old boy who was a witness, says that when Serino was at her house to interview her son, he indicated that it was not self defense and that it may have been a case of racial profiling.
 
Chris_Texas said:
BBM

Following someone is not aggressive? I disagree. It might not be illegal, though I suspect following a child is in many places, but it is without a doubt both aggressive and threatening. I bet you would be frightened if someone was simply following you in your car, I know I would, let alone having some creepy dude driving and then running after you at night in the rain. In all honesty, I am a guy who's been in more fights than Zimmerman has years, and even so that would scare the heeby jeebies out of me. I'd figure the next BTK was after me. I cannot imagine how freaked out I would have been as a kid.

The person in this case who had every reason to be afraid was TM. He was the one being followed, he was the one alone in the rain, unarmed. Zimmerman was the guy with the car and gun following him.

What Zimmerman's defenders seem to want to claim is that he had the right to pursue anyone he liked (which he did), scare the hell out of them (which he did), ignore police instructions to stop (which he did), and if his prey became frightened enough to defend themselves (which might have happened), Zimmerman could then legally kick their butts (if he could) or kill them (if he failed)...

And either way call it self defense. It's ridiculous in my opinion.

If TM waited in ambush and brained Zimmerman with a brick as he went slinking past, Trayvon would be correctly able to claim self defense. He RAN and the guy kept following him, he hid and the guy tried to hunt him down.
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I disagree. You cannot hit jump out of the bushes and hit someone on the head with a brick, just because someone appears to be following you in a public place.
 
justthinkin said:
I think you know very well what I meant, and are making excuses. Didn't Trayvon also go hundreds of miles away from his friends and girlfriend when he went to visit his dad? Was that too, punishment???

My question still stands.
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Uh, his father currently lives in Miami.
 
gxm said:
What I think is that we'll never know what happened that night. However, GZ's story is supported by the evidence. We can each decide whether to believe GZ is telling the truth or not. IMO, I just don't know and, with the evidence to date, I have to side with reasonable doubt.
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Have you been reading the same things I have? GZ's story is supported by evidence? Although the FBI has not weighted in yet, two independent voice analysts say the voice screaming in fear is Trayvon, not George as he said. George said his head was beaten repeatedly on the sidewalk. The video of him at the police station refutes that claim. It is a grainy video but GZ walks normally, his clothing is neat and clean, and he at least appears to be uninjured. Those are two of many inconsistencies with GZ's story.
 
highflyer said:
Have you been reading the same things I have? GZ's story is supported by evidence? Although the FBI has not weighted in yet, two independent voice analysts say the voice screaming in fear is Trayvon, not George as he said. George said his head was beaten repeatedly on the sidewalk. The video of him at the police station refutes that claim. It is a grainy video but GZ walks normally, his clothing is neat and clean, and he at least appears to be uninjured. Those are two of many inconsistencies with GZ's story.
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He doesn't appear to be uninjured. ABC now claims there are injuries on the back of his head visible on the video.
And I don't find this voice analysis of comparing screams to normal speech to be credible.
 
Badlands said:
Supported by evidence?

He says he was beaten up and his head was repeatedly smashed on the sidewalk. The video evidence certainly doesn't seem to substantiate this. The body's position doesn't seem to support this.

He says he was the one yelling for help. Two voice experts say that it was NOT him.
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I think that they were both yelling for help at different points in the incident. There is a witness that says GZ was on the bottom and was yelling for help.

I think at one point that was happening. And then he pulled out the gun, and then TM was yelling for help. imo

And GZ was probably hit and perhaps his head did hit the concrete once or twice. He got that gash somehow.

I think the truth lies somewhere in between both versions.
 
Dr.Fessel said:
No punishment being forced to leave your home, go hundreds of miles away from your friends and girlfriend.

Nope no punishment at all.
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NO...He had a working mom and he apparently needed some real Dddy time.
Punishments includes now you get your head in the books, apply to all the schools on your e-mail get with it...
No TV, Movies, and all the goodies, that is punishment.

<modsnip>
 
jjenny said:
He doesn't appear to be uninjured. ABC now claims there are injuries on the back of his head visible on the video.
And I don't find this voice analysis of comparing screams to normal speech to be credible.
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my bolding

Since you keep saying it's not credible you must know a lot about how it works. Can you share your knowledge about it?

ETA: I don't know for sure, I'm holding off saying 100% one way or the other til we get corroboration from the FBI reports, but one of them was on tv today and says he's been doing this for 28 years and stakes his reputation on it. Perhaps you know differently?
 
katydid23 said:
I think that they were both yelling for help at different points in the incident. There is a witness that says GZ was on the bottom and was yelling for help.

I think at one point that was happening. And then he pulled out the gun, and then TM was yelling for help. imo

And GZ was probably hit and perhaps his head did hit the concrete once or twice. He got that gash somehow.

I think the truth lies somewhere in between both versions.
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BBM BINGO
I said something like this over this past weekend.
I totally agree. :moo:
 
annalia said:
my bolding

Since you keep saying it's not credible you must know a lot about how it works. Can you share your knowledge about it?
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There are already posts on this thread that explain what would be admissible in court. But here are the guidelines from American Board of Recorded Evidence.

One of the most important:the speech rate should be similar to that of recorded sample. Such as, the recorded sample is screaming, not normal speech. I presume they are comparing screams on 911 tape to normal speech by Zimmerman when he called 911.
http://expertpages.com/news/american_board_voice_comparison.htm
 
Bumping opening post.

imamaze said:
Please continue here.
Remember the rules: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=159

Remember the "ignore" feature on your profile page.

Please stick with the facts as reported by LE or MSM, and link them. Link them often if necessary.

Please clearly state when it is your opinion. If you are making an inference please clearly outline and link the facts and evidence that have led you to form that inference. Wild speculation about any case player has no place here.

Please PM a mod with any questions or concerns and alert any TOS violations or offensive posts.

And finally, PLEASE address one another respectfully.

We will no longer allow discussion of Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, or the Black Panther protest(s). There are way too many <modsnips> and timeouts to continue this discussion. We will allow MSM links to such protests, but no discussion.

We need to stick to the facts of this case and that's our discussion here. Please, we ask that you do what you do best - SLEUTH THE CASE.

Blogs and Twitter links and discussion of them are allowed only if it's an approved WS link or a link from main stream media (MSM).


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Clairfication on WS stance regarding the "victim friendly" issue.

I had a discussion with the owners about how we were to deal with this. This is what I was advised:

At this point in the investigation we don't KNOW exactly who ALL the victims are now. We KNOW that Trayvon is a victim, because he is dead. However, news breaks and new leaks come forth everyday and it is still unclear whether Zimmerman was a victim of any violence. Until more verifiable FACTS are available, WS has chosen to err on the side of treating both the confirmed (Trayvon) AND potential (Zimmerman) victim, both as victims.

Like I said, that may change after we have more verifiable information

Hope that helps clear this up.

Please bump as needed.

Just a reminder:

WS does not permit links that request or suggest sending donations without the clear permission of the owners . This is to protect our members and for no other reason.
__________________
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annalia said:
my bolding

Since you keep saying it's not credible you must know a lot about how it works. Can you share your knowledge about it?
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Beth Karas said it doesn't meet the guidelines of The American Board of Recorded Evidence. The post is upthread.

She said it may not be admissible in court.
 
vlpate said:
"The call sheets show that five of seven phone calls Zimmerman had made since last August involved what he viewed as suspicious activity by young men identified as "black males." But the call sheets do not indicate whether Zimmerman was asked about the race of the suspects or volunteered that information."

Many of these calls are backed up by eye witness accounts using the same descriptions and documented in separate police reports (linked often in these threads). I find it hard to believe the FBI would only go back to August - clearly, prior to August, there were descriptions of white and Hispanic individuals as well. The rash of burglaries and break-ins escalated in August - eyewitness statements pointed to young black males. As far as the residents who stated Zimmerman had warned them of black males committing crimes in their gated community - he was telling the truth, no profiling.

My guess is the FBI has enhanced the 911 tape and found no racial slur. <Modsnip>
JMO
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BBM


I don't understand. If they have enhanced the tape and found nothing then why waste the time and manpower to go out asking witnesses? Nothing found - nothing there - move on.

It said the FBI is now running a parallel investigation to see if TM's civil rights were violated. That tells me they most certainly did find something upon enhancing that tape and are canvassing witnesses and residents to see if there is more.

FBI running a parallel civil rights investigation speak volumes to me - which is what I thought the first time I heard that whispered phrase.

sorry - I didn't save the link - it was that MSNBC article.


Since I dont' have the link handy - I'll add my JMHO.
 
highflyer said:
Have you been reading the same things I have? GZ's story is supported by evidence? Although the FBI has not weighted in yet, two independent voice analysts say the voice screaming in fear is Trayvon, not George as he said. George said his head was beaten repeatedly on the sidewalk. The video of him at the police station refutes that claim. It is a grainy video but GZ walks normally, his clothing is neat and clean, and he at least appears to be uninjured. Those are two of many inconsistencies with GZ's story.
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How do we know that they both were not screaming at different points of the incident? Maybe GZ screamed at first because TM surprised him, they began to wrestle around, and then the gun was exposed, and TM began to scream.

How do we know that at one point GZ's head wasn't smashed into the pavement? We have not heard GZ's testimony, only his dad and brother. They probably exaggerated.

You cannot tell anything by that video, imo. It is entirely possible to be wrestling around and struggling with someone over control of a gun, and then walk normally and appear to be uninjured. They were ON THE GRASS.

And how can anyone say his clothes were 'neat and clean.' We don't see any of that well enough, imo.
 
jjenny said:
In this case they are comparing screams to Zimmerman's voice on tape, I presume. Then start claiming it's not Zimmerman without even comparing Trayvon's voice. If Travyon's voice scored the same low percentage as Zimmerman would they be claiming that it's actually a third person screaming? This really is mind boggling to me that they can claim they ruled Zimmerman out.
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Except if you read the article, it says they don't need GZ screaming for the analysis.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

Another benefit of modern biometric analysis, Owen said, is it doesn't require an "in context" comparison. In other words, Owen didn't need a sample of Zimmerman screaming in order to compare his voice to the call.
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Badlands said:
Except if you read the article, it says they don't need GZ screaming for the analysis.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty
Code: 
Another benefit of modern biometric analysis, Owen said, is it doesn't require an "in context" comparison. In other words, Owen didn't need a sample of Zimmerman screaming in order to compare his voice to the call.
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That's what he says. Does he have studies showing that this is in fact accurate? Can he match screams to normal speech? Give him a 100 tapes of people screaming and the same people talking. Is he going to be able to match them all? No way I am just going to take his word for it.
 
jjenny said:
That's what he says. Does he have studies showing that this is in fact accurate? Can he match screams to normal speech? Give him a 100 tapes of people screaming and the same people talking. Is he going to be able to match them all? No way I am just going to take his word for it.
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IMO it doesn't matter if he thinks he can do it or not.

I think it matters much more if it will be admissible in court.

From the guidelines, it looks like it would not be.

That's what I'm understanding from Beth Karas' statements on HLN.
 
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