Sexual Abuse of JonBenet

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Toltec said:
Penetration causes the hymen to be broken...not masturbation.[/quote

Toltec, that is just not true. I am sorry, it is not. That is one of those falicies that exist like bringing cold water to a boil is faster than bringing hot water to a boil.
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mrsjonnob said:
I definately do not believe they were having a sex party or pimping out JB in some underground pedo ring thing.

I do think it's possible JR was molesting JB...but knowing about the douches, it is entirely possible PR inflicted those injuries on JB.

The part I can't wrap my brain around is one parent covering for another unless they felt they could be exposed for something too. I think either PR had something on JR or JR just didn't care that much for his daughter and he was worried more about his image and his business and what would happen if it became public that his wife killed their child.
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I am not sure when John found out, if it were the night before or the morning after - Steve Thomas says he had a phone call with one of Melinda's friends who said John got into the car when they arrived (I Believe) and said (and I am paraphrasing) that JB had gone to heaven, that she was dead and they found her at 11:00 (Steve asks the friend do you think he meant Boulder time or your time - meaning where the friend was from - and the friend said "I assumed he meant Boulder time".

So, that means that he found her around 11 when he looked the first time, and that Steve Thomas is right and that he decided then and there that he was going to help Patsy. Steve believes that is the reason for the separation of the two that day.

I tend to lean toward he helped her and he saw how remorseful she was and felt sorry for her. A think that is possible.
 
That person was Melinda's fiancee, Stewart Long.

I used to think JR woke up that morning not knowing anything, then figured it out as the day went on...but I can't reconcile the RN with that theory.

If Patsy wrote it, he would have noticed that, wouldn't he? If we think it sounds like her style of speech, and looks like her handwriting, wouldn't her own husband pick up on that as well? Like, the second he started reading it?

So then did JR see the RN, and believe it was from a kidnapper? Why didn't he act like it was a real RN, if that was the case?

I definitely think Steve Thomas knows a lot more than he said in his book, but I never understood why he gave JR such a pass.
 
Nuisanceposter said:
That person was Melinda's fiancee, Stewart Long.

I used to think JR woke up that morning not knowing anything, then figured it out as the day went on...but I can't reconcile the RN with that theory.

If Patsy wrote it, he would have noticed that, wouldn't he? If we think it sounds like her style of speech, and looks like her handwriting, wouldn't her own husband pick up on that as well? Like, the second he started reading it?

So then did JR see the RN, and believe it was from a kidnapper? Why didn't he act like it was a real RN, if that was the case? Because he knew already. I don't think Patsy is not going to tell John. They are very close - they are. JonBenet is dead already, what can you do about it? It is over. Patsy is probably hysterical and out of her mind and he feels sorry for her. However, that does bring into account, if he had nothing to do with it, why would he not worry about Berke, if Patsy could inflict that kind of violence on JonBenet. But he could overlook it and say well this was an accident and Berke is much bigger than JonBenet was.

I definitely think Steve Thomas knows a lot more than he said in his book, but I never understood why he gave JR such a pass.
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I think he knows more also, but then why would he not tell it? what does he have to lose; he already quit his job.
 
Nuisanceposter said:
You know, Solace, one of the things that gets me about the question of was JonBenet sexually abused, is that I don't think Patsy's response to hearing of evidence of prior abuse is one of a mother who had no idea at all that someone may have been doing something to her daughter. I don't have it on hand, but she just doesn't seem that surprised to me at hearing there was evidence that JonBenet had been molested before the night she was killed.

All the doctor visits, with that weird Dr Beuf, the school nurse visits, the three calls in one day that Patsy can't recall the topic of, the sexualization, the toileting issues, the abnormal structure....plus Patsy's lack of shock at hearing of suspected prior abuse....the story that she had changed when she came back from that Texas trip......I really think maybe someone was doing something nasty to JonBenet. I have no idea who.
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NP, are you talking about this part of her interview??

25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Ms. Ramsey, are
0581
1 you aware that there had been prior vaginal
2 intrusion on JonBenet?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
4 Prior to the night she was killed?
5 TOM HANEY: Correct.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
7 TOM HANEY: Didn't know that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I didn't.
9 TOM HANEY: Does that surprise you?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Extremely.
11 TOM HANEY: Does that shock you?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: It shocks me.
13 TOM HANEY: Does it bother you?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it does.
15 TOM HANEY: Who, how could she have
16 been violated like that?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. This
18 is the absolute first time I ever heard that.


Notice that Tom Haney says.."Who, how could she have been violated like that?" I still think that its possible that PR had been douching JB...but, she is certainly NOT going to admit to it. She doesn't sound shocked at all...but, that could be because she KNEW that she had been douching JB, and when Tom says..."Okay. Mrs. Ramsey, are you aware that there had been prior vaginal intrusion on JonBenet?" she KNEW what he was talking about. Prior vaginal INTRUSION doesn't mean that JR was molesting her, or do you or anyone else know of any other interview where actual molestation of JB is discussed? A vaginal intrusion could be a douche.
 
Solace said:
I think he knows more also, but then why would he not tell it? what does he have to lose; he already quit his job.
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I think so too...I wonder if he was threatened in some way?
 
mrsjonnob said:
IMO, repeated douching of a 6 year old is sexual abuse.
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I agree with you...and I think thats why Patsy didn't admit to doing it in her interview. But, I don't think that she had been molested....with an insertion of a male organ. (Sorry, I am trying not to be too graphic here). Some people think that she had been molested in THAT way. I have my doubts about that though.
 
Ames said:
I think so too...I wonder if he was threatened in some way?
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The Ramseys threatened him every which way but up and up to. He lost his house in the process. So there you have it. Possibly.
 
Ames said:
I agree with you...and I think thats why Patsy didn't admit to doing it in her interview. But, I don't think that she had been molested....with an insertion of a male organ. (Sorry, I am trying not to be too graphic here). Some people think that she had been molested in THAT way. I have my doubts about that though.
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It is absolutely abuse big time. A six year old should not be undergoing that kind of $h*# - no way - no time - no how. And Patsy is certainly not going to admit it. But Colorado said it was common knowledge that it was going on but she would not say her source.
 
Ames said:
NP, are you talking about this part of her interview??

25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Ms. Ramsey, are
0581
1 you aware that there had been prior vaginal
2 intrusion on JonBenet?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
4 Prior to the night she was killed?
5 TOM HANEY: Correct.
6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.
7 TOM HANEY: Didn't know that?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I didn't.
9 TOM HANEY: Does that surprise you?
10 PATSY RAMSEY: Extremely.
11 TOM HANEY: Does that shock you?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: It shocks me.
13 TOM HANEY: Does it bother you?
14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it does.
15 TOM HANEY: Who, how could she have
16 been violated like that?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. This
18 is the absolute first time I ever heard that.


Notice that Tom Haney says.."Who, how could she have been violated like that?" I still think that its possible that PR had been douching JB...but, she is certainly NOT going to admit to it. She doesn't sound shocked at all...but, that could be because she KNEW that she had been douching JB, and when Tom says..."Okay. Mrs. Ramsey, are you aware that there had been prior vaginal intrusion on JonBenet?" she KNEW what he was talking about. Prior vaginal INTRUSION doesn't mean that JR was molesting her, or do you or anyone else know of any other interview where actual molestation of JB is discussed? A vaginal intrusion could be a douche.
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That is what I meant, thanks, Ames. She just doesn't seem surprised to me - if that had been my daughter, I'd've had a different reaction and began asking questions, wanting detailed answers. Patsy almost sounds defensive to me, with her short replies. I'd be saying, "how do you know? Are you sure?" or "what did you find that makes you think that?" or "how could that be? No one ever had a chance" or "oh my god, my poor little baby, I had no idea". I would definitely insist on hearing exactly what was found that led them to believe prior abuse had occurred. She just doesn't seem to give the response of a mother who had no idea, imo.

I'm just trying to wrap my mind around the idea of an adult douching a child, but jeez, with everything else adult-like that Patsy was doing to JonBenet, it wouldn't surprise me all that much.
 
Solace said:
The Ramseys threatened him every which way but up and up to. He lost his house in the process. So there you have it. Possibly.
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Maybe when JR dies, he will come forward with more info. I think that he knows WAY more than he has said. And I think that Burke knows something too...I don't know WHAT...but, you KNOW that kid would have HAD to have heard SOMETHING that night. How "sweet" of the Ramsey's to send him out of the house the morning of the 26th, with his favorite Christmas present...his Nintendo64, when their daughter was missing. Sorry, I am WAY WAY off subject here...I have a habit of doing that. BUT..if YOUR child was missing, and you had a ransom note threatening to behead her...would you send YOUR OTHER child out of the house, to stay with friends...carrying his Nintento64? "Burke....ummm....JonBenet is missing. We have no clue who has her, and her life has been threatened, but we are going to let you go and stay with our friends, okay? Why don't you run and get your Nintendo64, so that you can play that, while we search for your sister, who may be dead? Take alot of different games to play on it, because we don't know how long you will be there. That will give you something to do". Give me a BREAK!!!
 
Solace said:
It is absolutely abuse big time. A six year old should not be undergoing that kind of $h*# - no way - no time - no how. And Patsy is certainly not going to admit it. But Colorado said it was common knowledge that it was going on but she would not say her source.
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She told me her source, in a PM. I will try and go back and find it....I hope that it wasn't deleted.
 
Nuisanceposter said:
That is what I meant, thanks, Ames. She just doesn't seem surprised to me - if that had been my daughter, I'd've had a different reaction and began asking questions, wanting detailed answers. Patsy almost sounds defensive to me, with her short replies. I'd be saying, "how do you know? Are you sure?" or "what did you find that makes you think that?" or "how could that be? No one ever had a chance" or "oh my god, my poor little baby, I had no idea". I would definitely insist on hearing exactly what was found that led them to believe prior abuse had occurred. She just doesn't seem to give the response of a mother who had no idea, imo.

I'm just trying to wrap my mind around the idea of an adult douching a child, but jeez, with everything else adult-like that Patsy was doing to JonBenet, it wouldn't surprise me all that much.
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You are welcome. NO, I don't think that she sounds shocked either...but, I think thats because she knew that the prior vaginal INTRUSION was the douches that she had been given her. Thats just my opinion.
 
She also angrily said "Show me where it says that..." when told of the suspected sexual abuse.
Masturbation wouldn't cause the hymen to tear- unless something was inserted during the activity. Let's be graphic here a moment, and please forgive me, but mastubatory activity by young girls would probably involve rubbing the clitoris, not inserting anything into the vagina. That opening wasn't the result of masturbation. And let's not forget the blood. Some of it was dried (on the forchette) but some was fresh. Masturbation doesn't usually cause bleeding.
And the birefringent matter? The cellulose (splinter?)
The douching may have caused some of the chronic injuries, but that night there was something else going on.
Of course if douching was done by PR as a punishment for soiling/wetting that night in the "rage activity" that resulted in JBR's death, that could account for some of it. Using a douche on a 6-yr-old girl had to be painful and cause some damage- their genitals are simply too small!
 
Solace said:
That is my point. I think it could also. Linda Hoffman Paugh, their housekeeper, said it was daily that she heard JonBenet and Patsy in the bathroom with JonBenet crying and Patsy yelling at her. She could be exaggerating but I think it was going on and also Colorado who use to post here said she knew it was said to be a big issue, the douching - by people who knew the Ramseys. Of course that is hearsay, but she lives in Boulder and might know more than most of us who do not.
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coloradokares is back... after a very long hospital stay. I do believe LHP as that is it is not the only source that had concerns
 
DeeDee249 said:
She also angrily said "Show me where it says that..." when told of the suspected sexual abuse.
Masturbation wouldn't cause the hymen to tear- unless something was inserted during the activity. Let's be graphic here a moment, and please forgive me, but mastubatory activity by young girls would probably involve rubbing the clitoris, not inserting anything into the vagina. That opening wasn't the result of masturbation. And let's not forget the blood. Some of it was dried (on the forchette) but some was fresh. Masturbation doesn't usually cause bleeding.
And the birefringent matter? The cellulose (splinter?)
The douching may have caused some of the chronic injuries, but that night there was something else going on.
Of course if douching was done by PR as a punishment for soiling/wetting that night in the "rage activity" that resulted in JBR's death, that could account for some of it. Using a douche on a 6-yr-old girl had to be painful and cause some damage- their genitals are simply too small!
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Nobody is disputing that there was a sexual "invasion" that night. Splinters were found inside her. There was not any masurbation going on. There was, however, a lot of scratching going on and yes that could cause injury. She was probably very very dry from the douching and the rashes.
 
Nuisanceposter said:
That is what I meant, thanks, Ames. She just doesn't seem surprised to me - if that had been my daughter, I'd've had a different reaction and began asking questions, wanting detailed answers. Patsy almost sounds defensive to me, with her short replies. I'd be saying, "how do you know? Are you sure?" or "what did you find that makes you think that?" or "how could that be? No one ever had a chance" or "oh my god, my poor little baby, I had no idea". I would definitely insist on hearing exactly what was found that led them to believe prior abuse had occurred. She just doesn't seem to give the response of a mother who had no idea, imo.

I'm just trying to wrap my mind around the idea of an adult douching a child, but jeez, with everything else adult-like that Patsy was doing to JonBenet, it wouldn't surprise me all that much.
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I understand what you mean that she was not asking a lot of questions and I would have wanted to know a lot more and see the report on it. Maybe she did not want to answer questions regarding douching.
 
Solace said:
It may be an IDI argument, but I am not so sure sexual abuse occurred and that is why I posted the site. I don't believe a rash can cause an enlarged hyman unless it does swell up the whole area as an infection might. But she did not have infections from what we know. We know she had rashes. A rash can cause irritation and a swollen vulva.

However, the site does say the following:

A gaping hymenal orifice, previously suggested to be a supportive sign of sexual abuse, was fairly frequently found and significantly associated with a large horizontal hymenal diameter."

I think this is important because the suggestion that she was abused is an important one. I don't think she was, sexually that is. I think you could call the pageants abuse, no doubt. And I think the fact that Patsy was douching her daily is abuse. But I just don't feel that there is enough evidence to prove that JB was sexually abuse, just mo.
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Where did you get "the fact that Patsy was douching her daily?"
 
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