Long Easter Weekend Thread (Apr. 5, 6, 7, 8, & 9, 2012)

Alice Ramnit said:

I agree Alison that some comments on here can be upsetting. Personally, I find some of the offhanded 'laughing' emoticons sometimes tasteless, annoying and aggravating. (Those are the ones that I think could be upsetting to the family!)

BUT I do appreciate being able to come to a place where I can access a multitude of viewpoints.
I think that many of the people here who play 'devil's advocate' are a balancing factor here, as they prevent this forum from simply becoming a 'lynch mob'!
I consider myself an intelligent, analytical and compassionate person...but I almost DAILY hear someone else's viewpoint that keeps me from jumping to a premature conclusion.

JMO

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:goodpost:

Thank you, Alice!

BTW I am an advocate for Victoria and her justice. That is why I am here.

antiquegirl said:

You mean MR's mother dictated that whole "Things 4 Carol" note to MR and he wrote all that down? Honestly not trying to be sarcastic here, but was there something wrong with her that she couldn't write the note herself? The two bottom additions ("coffee table" and "end table") were written with a different pen, presumably on another day. It makes no sense to me that he wrote this on two separate occasions while being dictated to. Also, "2 lamps" has been crossed off, meaning that she either changed her mind, or that this had already been donated.

Who do you think wrote the smaller note? It couldn't have been JW if the writing matches the previous one. If it was a reminder by MR to himself, why would he write "you can bring the pants back tomorrow"? I would just write, "bring the pants back tomorrow", no "you" necessary.

I maintain that both these notes were written by DM.

Just MOO.

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No Im not saying anything was wrong with Mom that she couldn't write, just saying for example...MR and mom are sitting at the table discussing items to donate to carol, MR gets out paper and starts making a list, adds to it when they think of more items

I think MR wrote both notes, you can buy the pants back tomorrow too, plus give money for oxys. I believe MR was selling oxys to JW, she owed him the money, I cannot figure out the pants part, but he did have those bags (Jacob, LaSenza and the bag with Puma shoes, not sure if all, but it was quotes "bags") in his hands getting into her car. All while he left his car running, with the windows down, with 935 bucks in his glove box.?!?!??!!?

Allison's post

:goodpost: And God forbid it should ever be any of our own children, grandchildren, children of friends, acquaintances. Tor was a random child who could have been anyone's little girl. I pray no one in Tori's family reads here. <modsnip>, JMHO.

flipflop said:

snipped from AG's quote

I think if we looked again at what was in CM's house, we might see some of the items on this list. (I will later.)

From the pics below of TLM's house you can see the following items (which were also on the Carol List....JMO

Pic #11 lamps, end table, tv stand in the middle of room
#10 coffee table
#20 night stand
#23 could be the tv stand as well
#28 tall dresser
#45 bed
the only thing that I do not see which was also on the list was curtains.
TLM's neighbours reported earlier that CM and TLM slept on a mattress on the floor, with the list found at MR's house perhaps all these items were donated to Carol. JMO

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/04/19594746.html#prev

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By George - I think you have it !! and if you tie both notes together... maybe he was supposed to take pants and money for oxys to Carol as well ???

Someone noted men's clothing at Carol's house....

giantalkinghead said:

Oh, but it does have bearing on this case and trust me, I know very well about the Bernado "debacle"... in fact, I know up close and personal - as I'm related to one of Bernardo and Homolka's victims. I've lived it. That's the problem. That's why I hope beyond hope that *IF* MR is guilty of 1st degree murder it will be proven BEYOND A SHADOW OF DOUBT. **IF** he's guilty - I pray there will be solid DNA evidence that will keep him in jail for the rest of his life. It's not enough under our laws to put him away and keep him there based on circumstancial evidence. It's clear that there are some people here that for whatever reason - have their blinders on and have found him guilty already - even without the all of the facts. But they don't know how it feels to loose someone that they love... only to see the killer serve a partial sentence and then be set free to enjoy the rest of her life... as we have with KH. This is why I sincerely hope that **IF** MR is guilty - there has been enough sharing of information between the forces that they get the job done right and keep in in jail... but so far I'm afraid it just isn't there.... not yet

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ITA! Thanks for the great post and I'm sorry for your loss.

Alison said:

BTW I am an advocate for Victoria and her justice. That is why I am here.

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Me too. xoxo

giantalkinghead said:

By George - I think you have it !! and if you tie both notes together... maybe he was supposed to take pants and money for oxys to Carol as well ???

Someone noted men's clothing at Carol's house....

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I forgot about the mens clothing....but didn't the note say "buy" the pants back.

Alison said:

I just want people to be "reasonable" with there opinions. Some are just a bit overwhelming.

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I read your earlier post, and I hear what you are saying as well. I try to see both sides of this. I'm trying to see the case from the perspective of LE and the Crown, as well as from the side of the defense. I guess where sometimes it gets tricky is when it comes to defining what is reasonable. What one finds reasonable, another might find unreasonable kwim? Its kind of a subjective thing. Unless we as a group can define what would constitute reasonable (and I'm not sure how we would even try to go about doing so), then there is always a likelihood of someone being put off by what they might read here.

I also want justice for Victoria! I find the case interesting to follow, no doubt, but ultimately, this is not about a case! Its about a little girl who was snuffed out in such a horrific way! I think this gets lost in the shuffle sometimes. I do appreciate the morning photo of Tori at the start of each thread posted by someone here. It certainly does help to keep Tori in my sights when I think about the case being presented by both sides!

giantalkinghead said:

Oh, but it does have bearing on this case and trust me, I know very well about the Bernado "debacle"... in fact, I know up close and personal - as I'm related to one of Bernardo and Homolka's victims. I've lived it. That's the problem. That's why I hope beyond hope that *IF* MR is guilty of 1st degree murder it will be proven BEYOND A SHADOW OF DOUBT. **IF** he's guilty - I pray there will be solid DNA evidence that will keep him in jail for the rest of his life. It's not enough under our laws to put him away and keep him there based on circumstancial evidence. It's clear that there are some people here that for whatever reason - have their blinders on and have found him guilty already - even without the all of the facts. But they don't know how it feels to loose someone that they love... only to see the killer serve a partial sentence and then be set free to enjoy the rest of her life... as we have with KH. This is why I sincerely hope that **IF** MR is guilty - there has been enough sharing of information between the forces that they get the job done right and keep in in jail... but so far I'm afraid it just isn't there.... not yet

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I hear what you are saying and I'm sorry for your loss.

flipflop said:

snipped from AG's quote

I think if we looked again at what was in CM's house, we might see some of the items on this list. (I will later.)

From the pics below of TLM's house you can see the following items (which were also on the Carol List....JMO

Pic #11 lamps, end table, tv stand in the middle of room
#10 coffee table
#20 night stand
#23 could be the tv stand as well
#28 tall dresser
#45 bed
the only thing that I do not see which was also on the list was curtains.
TLM's neighbours reported earlier that CM and TLM slept on a mattress on the floor, with the list found at MR's house perhaps all these items were donated to Carol. JMO

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/04/04/19594746.html#prev

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Quoting myself lol

in pic 8 there are mattresses on the front porch?!? Perhaps part of the bed, they look newer for this household. There is also couch or chair in #7

Why leave a child to rot? Why leave a child to rot while her mother stands in front of a camera day after day to be scrutinized and crucified by the public while one is also an abuser of drugs? Why leave a child to rot while shifting blame to the rotting child's mother and boyfriend? Inexcusable. How can this behaviour be defended? He was there. He knew who the missing little girl was. She was the one under the hundred pound rocks that he lifted and dropped onto her body. Whether he raped her, murdered her or not. Tori was there and he was zipping around town, for 6 weeks as he continued to live his life as if nothing even happened. JMO MOO

antiquegirl said:

ITA! Thanks for the great post and I'm sorry for your loss.

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Thanks 20 years have gone by in a heartbeat... it still feels like yesterday. I imagine it always will...

giantalkinghead said:

Not defending... not at all... just praying for concrete evidence !

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What type of concrete evidence might that be? May I ask?

I don't know who wrote the notes, and the handwriting does look similar, but not identical. I also think it looks like "pants," BUT it also looks like they spelled the word money wrong. It looks like there is no e. Doesn't necessarily mean anything, just how it looks to me and a bit odd. In any case, it really seems like this lot of evidence was just introduced and that they will go over it in greater detail next week. I hope so, anyway.

swedie said:

What type of concrete evidence might that be? May I ask?

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only God knows at this point.... we'll just have to wait for all of the evidence. It's tough waiting that's for sure...

brighidin said:

Why should a forensic identification officer have to speak to possible gang related issues at a murder trial? Not his area of expertise. LE knows to only speak to and testify about what they are experts on, and what they specifically investigated. How would it help anyone if this cop started talking about some street gang from London? Totally irrelevant. Just another attempted red herring.

Speaking of red herrings, the song list on the ipod is another. The reason why the cops didn't expend manhours on it, imo, is because it is completely irrelevant. Hello 1980s Judas Priest made me do it defense. GMAB.

Too busy going around the moon? You know that was in reference to the time and manpower involved in searching for Tori. You would prefer they hadn't searched for her?

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I have no problem with ident officers not knowing who's who in gangland. Just like the gang unit doesn't know everything about forensics.

Ident officers are not patrolling the street or working in organized crime units.

As for being too busy going around the moon. I would hope that nothing ever happens to a member of my family and if they do I would hope LE goes to the moon and back for my loved ones.

I just have to say that when I see the pictures of the interior of CM's home, I feel so sorry for her. I realize she is not mother of the year, but she is a very sick woman and well ..... I just feel so sorry for her. Someone was trying to make things better inside that home. With her being so sick, she surely did not need or deserve this on top of all her other problems. Just moo.

That being said, I say ........ and there by the grace of God go I (paraphrase). It goes something like this.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/there-but-for-the-grace-of-god.html

snoofer said:

looked like pumas in the video at gas station:twocents:

2 hair dyes
2 knives
2 pumas?????????????????:floorlaugh::twocents:

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Yep. Lots of cowinkydinks.

Have you all heard of Occam's Razor? Basically it states that the explanation that makes the fewest assumptions is usually correct. No, it's not foolproof, but I also feel that many of these excuses being made for MTR are unreasonable. He drove the car. He drove past the school (repeatedly). He was with TLM. He lied to the police. He was there when a little girl was murdered.

I don't really buy the drug debt theory, so therefore I don't buy that TLM kidnapped her for that purpose. And let's face it, when a man is involved in a kidnapping of a child that is not his own, it's usually for sexual purposes.

So we can assume:

-MTR was an innocent dupe who had no idea what was going on until it was too late
-he had no idea why TLM really wanted to stop at the Home Depot (and why in Guelph? Isn't there one in Woodstock or at least London?)
-he was unaware of the social protocol that you just don't take a strange child in your car--or ANY child, without their parent's explicit permission.
-he was also unaware that driving said child far out of town went even further against the social protocol
-he was waiting in the parking lot of the retirement home because...there was too much traffic? Nobody seems to want to touch that one
-he drove out in the country just for the hell of it--again, with that strange child in his car
-he pulled into a VERY secluded spot just so that TLM could talk to Tori without him present
-he walked far enough away that not only could he not hear them talking, but he also couldn't hear or see TLM viciously murdering Tori with a hammer, using more force than was necessary to kill her
-he was also far enough away that he couldn't hear Tori screaming
-he didn't hear or see his trunk open for TLM to obtain the murder weapon and garbage bags
-he was terrified of her even though he was quite muscular at the time, and almost certainly stronger than her
-instead of backing away slowly from the murderous maniac, jumping in his car, locking the doors, and taking off without her, he helped her clean up this vicious murder of a child
-not only did he help her clean it up, but he also then drove her back to her town, dropped her off far from her own house (would you take that chance of ticking off a maniac by leaving her to walk home in shoes that didn't fit if you were afraid of her? I wouldn't), and then tried to help her disguise her identity
-he kept it all a secret and didn't help her family get closure even though he was simply an innocent dupe and didn't have anything more shameful than that to hide
-her blood was found in his car because...she had a nosebleed?
-he got rid of the seat because he suddenly decided, after participating in cleaning up a murder, that it would be a fine time to spruce up his car
-he had TLM discard chunks of the seat because...you got me with that one. <modsnip>.

No, that's too many assumptions for me to make. I think this case is a lot simpler than that.

We can also assume that he was abducted by aliens, his car seat was beamed up into their ship never to be seen again, and he was a victim of their mind control and that's why he did nothing, before or after. But is it reasonable? No.

And that's why I think it's unreasonable to keep trying to explain this all away. Taken together, it looks clear to me.