GUILTY NY - Leiby Kletzky, 8, Brooklyn, 11 July 2011 - #2

somewhere (must have been the first thread), I mentioned divorce in the Orthodox culture and how it was easier for a man to remarry than a woman as he can refuse to give a "get" which would enable her to remarry.

this article is not about Leiby or Levy Aron but does discuss the issue:

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/07/lakewood_couple_accused_of_kid.html

JoeFromLB said:

BBM.

The problem is, he won't be off the streets forever. The psychiatrists will do everything in their power to get him "cured" and released.

They're already working on getting the maniac in Canada released who decapitated the Greyhound bus passenger in 2009. His lawyer is talking about his eventual "reintegration into society".

Horrific Bus Incident (Canada) Passenger Beheaded - Page 7 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community



And closer to home, in Brooklyn, the man who killed four people earlier this year is boasting that he'll beat the charges with an insanity defense.

"It's okay, I'll beat this," Maksim Gelman told an officer before his arraignment in February, according to court papers.

"I'll go to a mental hospital for a few years and then I'll get out on the street again, you'll see."

http://articles.nydailynews.com/201...anity-defense-court-officers-psychiatric-ward

Click to expand...

Exactly. Andrea Yates (she drowned her five kids and was found guilty in her first trial, but not guilty by reason of insanity in her second) could be out real soon as well, or at least her lawyer was saying she is ready to be released back into society.

Andrea Yates is one I believe was truly not guilty due to her severe post partum psychosis. I'm not ready to take the leap and put Levy Aron in a category of having a similiar medical condition. He was sane enough to hold a job. There just hasn't been enough information released to even for a moment think LA has any kind of condition deeming him insane.

jmo

rain88 said:

This is such a tragic case all around. It seems all the quick action by the police and others should have found Lieby in the apartment before his murder. So close to having a happy ending.

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Yaakov German heard Leiby was missing late Monday when he received a phone call from Leiby’s mother and a few hours later - with the help of son Avrumy, 25, and the principal of Yeshiva Boyan - he had access to school security video.

Video cameras captured Leiby leaving the lunchroom with a shopping bag over his shoulder and a knapsack on his back around 4:50 pm on Monday. NYPD were notified 3 hours after Leiby’s mother contacted The Shomrim and the NYPD did not assist in the search for Leiby on Monday.

Because local businesses were already closed, German couldn't track him outside - so he spent the wee hours with neighbors shouting for Leiby on 13th Ave. When the shops reopened on Tuesday morning, German was there demanding to see security footage so he could track Leiby’s movements.

The NYPD became actively involved in the search for Leiby around 5:30 Tuesday evening after German found surveillance tapes at Tristate Fleet which showed LA going into the dentist’s office and Leiby getting into his vehicle. They contacted the dentist at his home and after he identified LA, the NYPD went to Levi Aron's home around 2:30 am Wednesday morning.

LA told police the reason Leiby’s feet were in ziploc bags in his freezer was because he didn’t have time to dispose of them.

I haven't heard whether the NYPD acquired a search warrant before they went to LA’s home.

Snipped

AMATEUR SLEUTH'S CLUES:

- Yaakov German views security footage from Yeshiva Boyan showing Leiby Kletzky leaving the school about 4:50 p.m. on Monday wearing a striped shirt and carrying a knapsack.
- On Tuesday Leiby is nowhere to be found on security footage from The Children's Place on 13th Ave., so German determines the kid missed his turn onto 13th Ave.
- German determines Leiby kept going straight on 44th St. after spotting him on security footage from a hardware store and another school.
- German finds that security footage from Tristate Fleet, a car dealership at the end of 44th St., shows Leiby and suspect Levi Aron together, and shows Aron going in and out of the dentist's office.
- Cops arrive at Tristate Fleet and get the dentist office to give them Aron's name and address.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_...ppening_in_our_community_how_his_.html?page=1

<snip> Aron's lawyers say they will seek an insanity plea for their client, who has admitted to police that he smothered and then then dismembered the little boy.


Full article at link:


http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/levi-aron-meets-with-lawyers-at-bellevue-20110718

(from the link Bluesky#1 in post #144)

The NYPD became actively involved in the search for Leiby around 5:30 Tuesday evening after German found surveillance tapes at Tristate Fleet which showed LA going into the dentist&#8217;s office and Leiby getting into his vehicle.

This is the point where the volunteer search should have been called off or scaled back. Not that it would have necessarily changed the outcome as we do not yet have a TOD. But once LE determined the child had entered a car - they knew what they had on their hands and what the likely outcome would be. IF it is determined Leiby was still alive Tuesday evening when the official search started at 5pm IIRC, a 'mob' of thousands would have certainly caused fear.

I'm not saying the volunteers were not wonderful and the response time was not fantastic, etc. etc. However, there is a NEED to work with professionals TRAINED in law enforcement - who have far more experience in these types of situations. If a TOD is not determined, we'll never know if the outcome would be different if the search was directed by LE rather than thousands of civilian volunteers - which would no doubt appear as a potential angry mob to a perp.


I'm eagerly awaiting a time of death.
JMO

Nachman Kletzky told the rabbi a story about what a kind heart the 8-year-old had: When he was playing ball recently, he switched from the good team to the struggling one, because he felt bad for the underdogs.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_...15_sitting_shiva_slain_son.html#ixzz1SVTqznIF

Nachman is Leiby's father.

Leiby was a good hearted little boy.

I hope and pray they were able to recover all of the body parts of this precious boy. I know it is very important. When my late husband had his arm removed the surgeon asked me just before, if he was Jewish, and when I asked why he said if he was they would keep his arm for burial when he passed, having the body "whole" is an important tradition.

Re women menstruating and not allowed to touch men, I have greek orthodox friends who were brought up the same way, I imagine several other cultures also have this belief. They also had the bedsheet display after honeymoon etc. JME

http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stor...-leiby-kletzky-remains-in-bellevue-psych-ward

I can't take snippets from the above article. however, it does say Levi hears voices and uses earphones to drown the voices out - and listens to music loudly.

also - this article states the defense has not yet decided on pleading not guilty by reason of insanity due to not yet having enough information.

"He is hearing voices. He's been hearing voices for quite some time. He tries to quell some of the voices by listening to music, and he listens to it with headphones, and he listens to it very loud," said Gerard Marrone, Aron's Defense Attorney.


At Levi Aron's arraignment last week, his attorneys asked for a mental health evaluation saying the accused child killer seemed delusional and disoriented.

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/new_york&id=8255999



Would the above be enough for an insanity plea (if confirmed medically)?

In 1984, Congress passed, and President Ronald Reagan signed, the Comprehensive Crime Control Act. The federal insanity defense now requires the defendant to prove, by "clear and convincing evidence," that "at the time of the commission of the acts constituting the offense, the defendant, as a result of a severe mental disease or defect, was unable to appreciate the nature and quality or the wrongfulness of his acts" (18 U.S.C. § 17). This is generally viewed as a return to the "knowing right from wrong" standard. The Act also contained the Insanity Defense Reform Act of 1984, 18 U.S.C. § 4241, which sets out sentencing and other provisions for dealing with offenders who are or have been suffering from a mental disease or defect.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/background/insane/insanity.html

BBM, if this is the current standard I do not see how an insanity plea will fly due to the fact that Levy attempted to change his appearance by taking several inches off his beard and his statement to LE that he understands this may be wrong.... Key word being LA's acknowledging understanding.

He would not have attempted to change his appearance if he had no knowledge his actions were wrong.

Any of our verified lawyers following this thread who can chime in on the insanity plea?



jmo

Cubby said:

In 1984, Congress passed, and President Ronald Reagan signed, the Comprehensive Crime Control Act. The federal insanity defense now requires the defendant to prove, by "clear and convincing evidence," that "at the time of the commission of the acts constituting the offense, the defendant, as a result of a severe mental disease or defect, was unable to appreciate the nature and quality or the wrongfulness of his acts" (18 U.S.C. § 17). This is generally viewed as a return to the "knowing right from wrong" standard. The Act also contained the Insanity Defense Reform Act of 1984, 18 U.S.C. § 4241, which sets out sentencing and other provisions for dealing with offenders who are or have been suffering from a mental disease or defect.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/background/insane/insanity.html

BBM, if this is the current standard I do not see how an insanity plea will fly due to the fact that Levy attempted to change his appearance by taking several inches off his beard and his statement to LE that he understands this may be wrong.... Key word being LA's acknowledging understanding.

He would not have attempted to change his appearance if he had no knowledge his actions were wrong.

Any of our verified lawyers following this thread who can chime in on the insanity plea?



jmo

Click to expand...

LA's coworkers were the ones who noticed LA had groomed himself after he left work on Monday and since LA was a guest at a large wedding Monday evening, it makes sense why he trimmed his beard etc.

Five hundred people attended the wedding LA was at on Monday night so he would have been surrounded by plenty of happy men with wives and children on this joyous occasion.

It seems reasonable that this event might have deeply upset and disturbed Levi who was currently divorced and childless and after Levi arrived home and went into his bedroom to pray in secret, he promised to sacrifice Leiby like a lamb to God. His lawyer claims the voices inside LA&#8217;s head are responsible for Leiby&#8217;s murder and if LA made this promise, it is reasonable that he would fulfill his promise to God as soon as he could so when he returned home from work at lunchtime on Tuesday and Leiby was still there, he tied him up and dismembered him him before anyone could stop him.

<snipped>

Aron previously claimed he "panicked" and committed the murder once he heard about the massive search for Leiby, involving hundreds of volunteers from the local community and across the state.

However, when pressed for further details, Aron would not discuss his panic or give any further reasoning to police.

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/07/levi-aron-pleades-not-guilty-567.html

<snipped>

In his confession, Mr. Aron said that when he went to smother the boy with a towel, &#8220;he fought back a little bit until eventually he stopped breathing.&#8221;

Mr. Kelly said there were also ligature marks on Leiby&#8217;s body, indicating Mr. Aron might have bound him with rope.

&#8220;He may have been tied down when he was trying to suffocate him,&#8221; a law enforcement official said.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/14/levi-arons-confession-in-leiby-kletzkys-killing/

Bluesky#1 said:

LA's coworkers were the ones who noticed LA had groomed himself after he left work on Monday and since LA was a guest at a large wedding Monday evening, it makes sense why he trimmed his beard etc.

Click to expand...

Huge difference between trimming a beard and cutting several inches off. LA cut several inches off. The clothing he was seen wearing in the video appears to be traditional hasidic male dress. He would not have changed his appearance that drastically for a wedding when many of the men wear long beards.

jmo

Levy likely had an hour lunch. I don't believe he could have murdered and dismembered him during a lunch hour and cleaned up well enough to return to work Tuesday afternoon.

He was either killed Monday evening or Tuesday evening. In one of the earlier articles it was reported LA was shirtless and the door to his third floor attic apartment ajar when police arrived. I seem to recall something about him saying he took a shower. I'd have to find the article again - but it led me to believe he was probably dismembered Tuesday evening. It is possible the murder and dismemberment did not take place on the same day.

Will post the article with the comment about the shower if I can find it.

Pulling the following still capture from the grainy video of LA on survellience walking to his car with Leiby following behind.
(originally posted by elepher50)

Note length of beard and hat.

Due to traffic, I got back around 11:30 p.m. ... so I brought him to my house thinking I'd bring him to his house the next day. He watched TV then fell asleep in the front room. I went to the middle room to sleep. That next morning, he was still sleeping when I was ready to leave.

So I woke him and told him I'll bring him to his house... when I saw the flyers I panicked and was afraid. When I got home he was still there so I made him a tuna sandwich....

I was still in a panic ...

http://m.ibtimes.com/leiby-kletzky-murder-aron-levy-confession-brooklyn-180268.html


So he was panicked in the morning but ok to go work? Nothing indicates LA went home for lunch. Levy's coworkers did not indicate he left and did not return after lunch. His coworkers statements were such that his behavior Tuesday was usual and noted nothing out of the ordinary from any other time they saw Levy. If he was panicked - why would it take 9 or so hours to react and murder the child after feeding him and return home from a 9 or so hour work day? ( using 9 hours based on a typical 8 hour day with an hour for lunch). ETA: If the time line and story LA has given is true, it would indicate he had the ability to control the panick he felt in the am having an entire fully functional day prior to when he actually murdered and dismembered Leiby. The time of death may be a big factor in this case and the determination if LA really panicked as he claims.

The panick story would fit better if the child was murdered Monday evening following the wedding if LA had seen flyers that Monday evening. I don't know if flyers were up that quick, or if the area was papered Tuesday.

I'm sure the autopsy included examining the contents of the childs stomach as well to establish any truth to LA's story and a TOD.

Also from the above link:

... went to clean up a little then took a second shower.

I understand this may be wrong and I'm sorry for the hurt that I have caused.

jmo

Bluesky#1 said:

LA's coworkers were the ones who noticed LA had groomed himself after he left work on Monday and since LA was a guest at a large wedding Monday evening, it makes sense why he trimmed his beard etc.

Click to expand...

A Hasidic Jew that wears his beard long, or an Orthodox Jew who wears his beard long would never "trim it" for a wedding. They wear them scruffy and natural and long.

IMO the man sexually molested the boy and killed him the same night and had done it before.

You don't need to sodomize a child to sexually assault them. And he "panicked" when he saw the big fuss about the boy. He shaved his beard after he killed him probably knowing that they were looking at video tapes.

He would have gotten away with it I bet if he had not gone into the dentist office to pay for the bill and not paid. Irony.

But everything that comes out of this mans mouth is a sheer lie.

Wondergirl said:

Sorry for 3 in a row, but, this is sickening. :furious:

Levi Aron Participated In Davening For Leiby Kletzky

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Whaaaat ok that is creepy!!!!!!!!! Correcting the name pronunciation? Omg.

JoeFromLB said:

BBM.

The problem is, he won't be off the streets forever. The psychiatrists will do everything in their power to get him "cured" and released.

They're already working on getting the maniac in Canada released who decapitated the Greyhound bus passenger in 2009. His lawyer is talking about his eventual "reintegration into society".

Horrific Bus Incident (Canada) Passenger Beheaded - Page 7 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community



And closer to home, in Brooklyn, the man who killed four people earlier this year is boasting that he'll beat the charges with an insanity defense.

"It's okay, I'll beat this," Maksim Gelman told an officer before his arraignment in February, according to court papers.

"I'll go to a mental hospital for a few years and then I'll get out on the street again, you'll see."

http://articles.nydailynews.com/201...anity-defense-court-officers-psychiatric-ward

Click to expand...

This is what I hate about the insanity defense.

Some people really ARE insane, driving them to do horrible things. These people do need help and that is why that defense exists. However, it has become a get out of jail free card and that is wrong, wrong, wrong. If someone is that mentally disabled, to kill an innocent little boy, he needs to be watched 24/7 by professionals and medicated. For life.