Golf club or flashlight or....?

Chrishope said:

I'm another monkey in the tree that thinks, at least possibly, she fell on something. BR is the only one I see hitting her with a golf club, and I don't see the case as BDI. I can't see any reason for JR or PR to use a golf club on her (or a maglite). I especially don't see her being bashed in the head because she screamed or because she was getting away from the perp.

Unfortunately it's another of the many aspects of the case we will likely never know.

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DeeDee249 said:

The neighbor who heard the scream was asked about that very thing- if she was sure it was a child. She replied (a bit indignantly) that she "knew what a child's scream sounded like" and wouldn't have mistaken it for a woman's.
But many people here do wonder if the scream could have been Patsy, discovering what had happened to her daughter.
The time that the scream was said to be heard (around midnight) does correspond to JB's approximate time of death, and so it could work for either scenario. If it was JB's scream in response to whatever penetrated her vagina with enough force to cause her to bleed (followed by the head bash to shut her up), the approximate TOD of midnight to 1 am is in agreement with a midnight scream. By the same token, if Patsy, up and about getting ready for the trip by her own admission, having come upon JB in an unconscious state, may have screamed herself. Either way, I believe a scream WAS heard and it happened right around the time she died.

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Meyer said he found a lot of redness, some small flecks of blood, and dark colored fibers in the vaginal area, but no old scarring. There was some abrasion and hemorrhaging in the vagina. Also present was irritation and chronic inflammation in the vaginal vault, which he said was evident for some period. He was unsure whether the cause was infection, digital manipulation, lying in urine, or even the unlikely event of self-manipulation. It was inconsistent with penile penetration, but chronic vaginal abuse was a possibility, Meyer said.

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Flatlander said:

[
I found this site most interesting on the subject:
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-michael-helgoth.htm

What they didn't know was that lab technicians had found not just one but three different unidentified shoe prints in that little room-the main print and two less pronounced impressions that overlapped each other. We considered that a positive development, for how likely would it be that three intruders carried the body into the room? And the possibilities were great that the print was totally unrelated to the murder. Just because something is found at the site of a murder doesn't mean it is part of the crime.

Patsy Ramsey Interview - Atlanta, Georgia - August 28, 2000
0122

14 Q. Do you recall a period of time,

15 prior to 1996, when your son Burke purchased

16 a pair of hiking boots that had compasses on

17 the shoelaces? And if it helps to

18 remember --

19 A. I can't remember.

20 Q. Maybe this will help your

21 recollection. They were shoes that were

22 purchased while he was shopping with you in

23 Atlanta.

24 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that

25 as a fact?

0123

1 MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as

2 a fact.

3 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Does that help

4 refresh your recollection as to whether he

5 owned a pair of shoes that had compasses on

6 them?

7 A. I just can't remember. Bought so

8 many shoes for him.
9 Q. And again, I will provide, I'll

10 say, I'll say this as a fact to you, that,

11 and maybe this will help refresh your

12 recollection, he thought that -- the shoes

13 were special because they had a compass on

14 them, his only exposure for the most part to

15 compasses had been in the plane and he kind

16 of liked the idea of being able to point

17 them different directions. Do you remember

18 him doing that with the shoes?

19 A. I can't remember the shoes. I

20 remember he had a compass thing like a

21 watch, but I can't remember about the shoes.

22 Q. You don't remember him having

23 shoes that you purchased with compasses on

24 them?

25 MR. WOOD: She will tell you that

0124

1 one more time. Go ahead and tell him, and

2 this will be the third time.

3 THE WITNESS: I can't remember.

4 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Okay. Does it

5 jog your memory to know that the shoes with

6 compasses were made by Hi-Tec?

7 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that

8 as a fact?

9 MR. LEVIN: Yes. I am stating

10 that as a fact.

11 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't know

12 that.

13 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I will state this

14 as a fact. There are two people who have

15 provided us with information, including your

16 son, that he owned Hi-Tec shoes prior to the

17 murder of your daughter.

18 MR. WOOD: You are stating that

19 Burke Ramsey has told you he owned Hi-Tec

20 shoes?

21 MR. LEVIN: Yes.

22 MR. WOOD: He used the phrase

23 Hi-Tec?

24 MR. LEVIN: Yes.

25 MR. WOOD: When?

0125

1 MR. LEVIN: I can't, I can't give

2 you the source. I can tell you that I have

3 that information.

4 MR. WOOD: You said Burke told

5 you.

6 MR. LEVIN: I can't quote it to

7 you for reasons I am sure, as an attorney,

8 you are aware.

9 MR. WOOD: Just so it is clear,

2. 10 there is a difference between you saying that

11 somebody said Burke told them and Burke

12 telling you because Burke has been

13 interviewed by you all December of 1996,

14 January of 1997, June of 1998.

15 Are you saying that it is within

16 those interviews?

17 MR. LEVIN: No.

18 MR. WOOD: So he didn't tell you,

19 he told somebody else you are stating as a

20 fact because I don't think you all have

21 talked to him other than those occasions,

22 have you?

23 MR. KANE: Mr. Wood, we don't

24 want to get into grand jury information.

25 Okay?

0126

1 MR. WOOD: Okay.

2 MR. KANE: Fair enough?

3 MR. LEVIN: I am sorry, I should

4 have been more direct. I thought you would

5 understand --6 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Fleet Junior also

2. 7 says that he had Hi-Tec shoes.

8 A. Okay. Now --

9 Q. Does that jog your memory?

10 A. Is, are you talking like Hi-Tec

11 like --

12 Q. The brand name.

13 A. These are really high tech or the

14 brand name? Did the children understand the

15 difference, or are they --

16 Q. I was talking brand name.

17 A. They knew like a brand name like

18 Nike, whatever?

19 Q. Yes, yes, ma'am.

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. That doesn't jog your recollection

22 at all?

23 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. Is this the first time

22 that you've heard that Burke says that he

23 had Hi-Tec?

24 A. Yes, it is.

25 Q. This is the very first time?

0132

1 A. Yes.

QUOTE=txsvicki;8317049]I still don't understand how jonbenet wasn't injured with bruising or abrasions on her body when hit in the head unless she was laying on a pillow, reclining on a chair, or someone had hold of her if she was standing. Even if she were crouched down it seems like she would have been knocked over and at least bruised.

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UKGuy said:

DeeDee249,
Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation

If someone had already molested JonBenet, and lets assume it was digital, and the painbrush was used to cause the abrasion and hemorrhaging, what might induce JonBenet to scream?

I think the head injury was an accidental consequence of the sexual assault, the rest is staging.

Its either that or it was a rage attack with something like a golf-club?


.

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dodie20 said:

This is just speculation, but I think it's possible that PR in a rage, went after JB, and JB seeing how mad she was, screamed, while trying to get away. She could have been grabbed by her hair and then pounded with the flashlight, or struck while running, with the golf club or bat. JB didn't have to be physically hurt to scream. She could have screamed out of fear. The image of PR, charging towards her with a golf club, would have been pretty scary. I know from experience, that a kid knows immediately, when his mother has 'snapped', and it's time to run. My own mother had a 'I've had all I can take' look, and we kids knew it was time to hide. A mom's boiling point is an unpredictable thing, but as soon as you see the look, you know. IMO, if JB was the one who smeared the feces, she would have realized instantly, what caused the rage, and known she was in Big trouble. Also, if a kid runs away from an enraged mom, the mom gets even madder and more dangerous. IDK about men, because I've never actually seen a dad 'lose it', at 1 of his kids. Maybe because the majority of parenting issues, are tended to by the mother? I did see a man push his daughter down for striking out in a softball game. I wouldn't say he was enraged though, just an abusive bully.

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UKGuy said:

dodie20,
Sure something like that could have happened. Since I reckon Patsy fashioned the garrote, then maybe she started it all too?

But, again, we return to the abuse. Somehow I cannot see Patsy molesting JonBenet, and Meyer suggests an acute sexual assault took place prior to the head bash?

So my notion is that the head bash and molestation are in some manner connected, as if the abuser had JonBenet in some unusual position?


.

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OpenMind4U said:

UKGuy,

Where did you read this 'suggestion' from Meyer?...just curious...

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OpenMind4U said:

UKGuy,

Where did you read this 'suggestion' from Meyer?...just curious...

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OpenMind4U said:

UKGuy,

Just to make clear: I didn't mean to 'challange' you or/and I didn't mean to sound like any kind of sarcasm here...but, think about...

As far I know, the only reference to timing of acute injury is it was suggested as 'close to JBR death'. Means, JBR was alife when acute injury happens.

So, here are couple scenarios:

1. acute injury --> head blow--> 90 min--> strangulation/death
2. head blow--> 90 min--> acute injury --> strangulation/death

The difference between these two scenarios reflects in question: does acute injury is part of the 'staging' or not?. JMO

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UKGuy said:

dodie20,
Sure something like that could have happened. Since I reckon Patsy fashioned the garrote, then maybe she started it all too?

But, again, we return to the abuse. Somehow I cannot see Patsy molesting JonBenet, and Meyer suggests an acute sexual assault took place prior to the head bash?

So my notion is that the head bash and molestation are in some manner connected, as if the abuser had JonBenet in some unusual position?


.

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dodie20 said:

I've read numerous accounts, ofPR confiding to a friend, that she used a douche, to clean JB, when she soiled herself. This may not be verified, but assuming it's true, it points to a couple of things, IMO. First of all, PR, through her own words, made the connection between JB's soiling, and what IMO, could be the prior vaginal injuries. It appears, again IMO, that the soiling caused her enough anguish, to take drastic measures. And yes, douching a child, is a drastic measure. In 1996, PR would have known that douching was for mature women, and was to be used sparingly. At that time, it was common knowledge that douching wasn't a healthy way to clean. So, for her to tell a friend, raises a red flag, IMO. If the douching was for cleaning purposes only, I would think PR would have kept it private, and between JB and herself. Her telling a friend, IMO, seems like a defensive ploy. If PR knew she was injuring JB, (and she would have known), then her telling a friend might have been a way protecting herself, in case the injuries were ever detected...by having a witness say, 'yes, the douching was for soiling problems, not for punishment or abuse, and nothing but the douch wand was ever inserted'. So, IMO, it's possible that PR, was the one who inflicted the prior sexual abuse. I don't have any idea of how out of hand it got, but it was PR, who made the connection between JB's soiling, and inserting an object into her private area. All moo

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azwriter said:

Flashlight, golf club. I don't know which it was. But we should keep in mind the reactions of John and Patsy to the flashlight and the golf clubs.

They claimed the flashlight wasn't theirs. Which would show they wanted no part of it and didn't want it to be associated with them in ownership.

Then again, John wanted his golf club (and the bag too) to go with him. He didn't want to leave home without it.

How do these reactions help us decide which weapon was used?

Or, could JonBenet had been wacked with something different - a trophy?

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dodie20 said:

Well, we know a flashlight was used, if for no other reason, than to navigate around the house. A neighbor saw the bobbing light, so that alone, is motive for distancing, IMO. Idk what to think about those clubs, but JR wanting them, is shady, to say the least. Did he really want to play golf at a time like this? But, he supposedly told an officer that he had an important meeting he couldn't miss, so who knows, maybe he Did expect to get in a few rounds.

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azwriter said:

I for one have great doubts there was any douching going on. During her treatment for her cancer Patsy displayed horror that she had to go through treatments where anything was inserted in her. I can't see her doing any of this type cleaning ritual with her daughter. JMO

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azwriter said:

I for one have great doubts there was any douching going on. During her treatment for her cancer Patsy displayed horror that she had to go through treatments where anything was inserted in her. I can't see her doing any of this type cleaning ritual with her daughter. JMO

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azwriter said:

Or, could JonBenet had been wacked with something different - a trophy?

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txsvicki said:

Did meyer believe that jonbenet lived for 90 minutes after the head injury? If he's not one of the experts that believed that then he could have been thinking the head bash, strangulation, and jab happened in quick succession of each other.

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Bonnette said:

I wonder, though...Dr. Beuf, JB's pediatrician and Ramsey family friend, admitted to treating JB for multiple vaginal infections; treatment for those often includes Betadine douches. I don't know what a pediatric examination for vaginal complaints might involve, but vaginal speculums come in all sizes (the smallest being about the diameter of a little finger); if a speculum had been used on JB, it might have contributed to the displacement of her hymen and vaginal enlargment (as would repeated digital examinations). If douches were subsequently administered, the douchetip would have added to JB's chronic inflammation/vaginal enlargement/hymenal damage. Combined with chronic sexual abuse, that little girl must have been caught in an endless cycle of misery. :moo:

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