NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 8

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Hi everyone! I just joined in order to discuss this case, so please forgive me if I overlooked something that has already been discussed.

I have read Mr. Renner's blog with interest, but find it very unlikely that the college friends he has interviewed remember all of their interactions with Maura from seven years ago, especially casual conversations. The human memory can and does fill in forgotten details in memories and it is hard of not impossible to distinguish them from the real facts. I wish I had more details on a study I read on that in school, but that was also several years ago. So, IMO, it's entirely possible that "Hoss" doesn't remember Maura speaking of her father, especially if she didn't think her father would have approved of their relationship. On the other hand, someone speaking of wanting to disappear and then they actually do...that would probably jog someone's memory a little more than casual conversations about family.

It's always been my belief that Maura most likely died of exposure. Though it's not very far from the western end of Rte 112 to North Woodstock (less than 20 miles, IIRC), and a distance runner could likely have walked/run that distance, it was dark, it was very cold, and it's a definite possibility that Maura's judgment was impaired by alcohol, by her crash, or by her state of mind. To an impaired mind, doing something that would not normally be a smart idea (like taking a trail for a "shortcut"), can seem like a much better idea. Many trails and unused logging roads intersect Rte 112. I used to drive back an forth over that route about three times a week for a couple of years. There are also steep hills and ravines as well as the Wild Ammonoosuc River nearby. It would be very, very easy to get lost, especially for someone not thinking clearly. If she was afraid of being caught and avoided drivers, it's even possible that she ran off the road into the woods to avoid being seen by a passing car and got disoriented in the dark and wandered deeper into the woods instead of back to the road. It's a desolate stretch of road at the height of tourist season, even moreso in winter. I often took an alternate route if the weather looked threatening for that reason.
 
HeartOfGranite said:
Hi everyone! I just joined in order to discuss this case, so please forgive me if I overlooked something that has already been discussed.

I have read Mr. Renner's blog with interest, but find it very unlikely that the college friends he has interviewed remember all of their interactions with Maura from seven years ago, especially casual conversations. The human memory can and does fill in forgotten details in memories and it is hard of not impossible to distinguish them from the real facts. I wish I had more details on a study I read on that in school, but that was also several years ago. So, IMO, it's entirely possible that "Hoss" doesn't remember Maura speaking of her father, especially if she didn't think her father would have approved of their relationship. On the other hand, someone speaking of wanting to disappear and then they actually do...that would probably jog someone's memory a little more than casual conversations about family.

It's always been my belief that Maura most likely died of exposure. Though it's not very far from the western end of Rte 112 to North Woodstock (less than 20 miles, IIRC), and a distance runner could likely have walked/run that distance, it was dark, it was very cold, and it's a definite possibility that Maura's judgment was impaired by alcohol, by her crash, or by her state of mind. To an impaired mind, doing something that would not normally be a smart idea (like taking a trail for a "shortcut"), can seem like a much better idea. Many trails and unused logging roads intersect Rte 112. I used to drive back an forth over that route about three times a week for a couple of years. There are also steep hills and ravines as well as the Wild Ammonoosuc River nearby. It would be very, very easy to get lost, especially for someone not thinking clearly. If she was afraid of being caught and avoided drivers, it's even possible that she ran off the road into the woods to avoid being seen by a passing car and got disoriented in the dark and wandered deeper into the woods instead of back to the road. It's a desolate stretch of road at the height of tourist season, even moreso in winter. I often took an alternate route if the weather looked threatening for that reason.
Click to expand...

I agree somewhat about that area being desolate, however, in the immediate area in which Maura crashed, there were plenty of houses around whether she went east or back-tracked west or even south that she could've sought out help.

I can really see why she took the route she did, because if you just google map or mapquest directions to bartlett from her campus at UMASS, the rt. 112 looks on paper like it would be a direct shortcut right towards bartlett instead of having to go all the way around vie interstate. Of Course, that is not taking into consideration weather conditions and the remoteness of the area.
 
HeartOfGranite said:
Hi everyone! I just joined in order to discuss this case, so please forgive me if I overlooked something that has already been discussed.

I have read Mr. Renner's blog with interest, but find it very unlikely that the college friends he has interviewed remember all of their interactions with Maura from seven years ago, especially casual conversations. The human memory can and does fill in forgotten details in memories and it is hard of not impossible to distinguish them from the real facts. I wish I had more details on a study I read on that in school, but that was also several years ago. So, IMO, it's entirely possible that "Hoss" doesn't remember Maura speaking of her father, especially if she didn't think her father would have approved of their relationship. On the other hand, someone speaking of wanting to disappear and then they actually do...that would probably jog someone's memory a little more than casual conversations about family.

It's always been my belief that Maura most likely died of exposure. Though it's not very far from the western end of Rte 112 to North Woodstock (less than 20 miles, IIRC), and a distance runner could likely have walked/run that distance, it was dark, it was very cold, and it's a definite possibility that Maura's judgment was impaired by alcohol, by her crash, or by her state of mind. To an impaired mind, doing something that would not normally be a smart idea (like taking a trail for a "shortcut"), can seem like a much better idea. Many trails and unused logging roads intersect Rte 112. I used to drive back an forth over that route about three times a week for a couple of years. There are also steep hills and ravines as well as the Wild Ammonoosuc River nearby. It would be very, very easy to get lost, especially for someone not thinking clearly. If she was afraid of being caught and avoided drivers, it's even possible that she ran off the road into the woods to avoid being seen by a passing car and got disoriented in the dark and wandered deeper into the woods instead of back to the road. It's a desolate stretch of road at the height of tourist season, even moreso in winter. I often took an alternate route if the weather looked threatening for that reason.
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Welcome aboard, I can agree about Maura's friends and their memories not being 100%, but when it comes to Hoss no. Hoss was interviewed by the police which would make his memory about Maura mentioning anything about her Dad very clear at the time. Hoss said as far as he was concerned her Father was dead meaning she NEVER said a word about him. This is a man who has no memory issues. Hoss seemed to know a lot about Maura's BF from the remarkes he made about him. He said that when Maura talked to him about Billy she referred to him as her ex. It would seem the two talked a lot about intimate details of her life, her likes and dislikes, her ex bf all but her Dad.
 
telemag said:
Hey Pittsburghgirl, for what it's worth I'm pretty sure all the liquor was accounted for. Now, I do wonder what she would take her backpack. What could possibly be in it that was important?
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Here is the source I was following for stating that she carried out the liquor. The writer suggests that it is also possible that someone stole the alcohol.

http://southshorexpress.com/extras/special-reports/83-maura-is-missing-the-epilogue.html

It's also strange that Maura bought so much alcohol before her trip: bottles of vodka, Kahlua and Bailey's Irish Cream - none of which were found in her car. Where did the bottles go? They could have been stolen. Maura could have made a stop before reaching the snow bank in Woodsville or she could have brought these bottles with her to wherever she was headed. Was Maura meeting someone? Was she simply treating herself to a mudslide - a beverage made of vodka, coffee liqueur and Irish cream? [Emphasis added]
Click to expand...

For those who want to look at the Whitman/Hanson Express articles, here is the link to a webpage that includes the whole series as well as other interesting articles.

http://southshorexpress.com/extras/special-reports.html
 
HeartOfGranite said:
Hi everyone! I just joined in order to discuss this case, so please forgive me if I overlooked something that has already been discussed.

I have read Mr. Renner's blog with interest, but find it very unlikely that the college friends he has interviewed remember all of their interactions with Maura from seven years ago, especially casual conversations. The human memory can and does fill in forgotten details in memories and it is hard of not impossible to distinguish them from the real facts. I wish I had more details on a study I read on that in school, but that was also several years ago. So, IMO, it's entirely possible that "Hoss" doesn't remember Maura speaking of her father, especially if she didn't think her father would have approved of their relationship. On the other hand, someone speaking of wanting to disappear and then they actually do...that would probably jog someone's memory a little more than casual conversations about family.

It's always been my belief that Maura most likely died of exposure. Though it's not very far from the western end of Rte 112 to North Woodstock (less than 20 miles, IIRC), and a distance runner could likely have walked/run that distance, it was dark, it was very cold, and it's a definite possibility that Maura's judgment was impaired by alcohol, by her crash, or by her state of mind. To an impaired mind, doing something that would not normally be a smart idea (like taking a trail for a "shortcut"), can seem like a much better idea. Many trails and unused logging roads intersect Rte 112. I used to drive back an forth over that route about three times a week for a couple of years. There are also steep hills and ravines as well as the Wild Ammonoosuc River nearby. It would be very, very easy to get lost, especially for someone not thinking clearly. If she was afraid of being caught and avoided drivers, it's even possible that she ran off the road into the woods to avoid being seen by a passing car and got disoriented in the dark and wandered deeper into the woods instead of back to the road. It's a desolate stretch of road at the height of tourist season, even moreso in winter. I often took an alternate route if the weather looked threatening for that reason.
Click to expand...

I agree about her possibly becoming disoriented if she ran down Rt. 112. It was pitch black. I always wondered if she brought a flashlight and if one was missing from her emergency kit in the Saturn's trunk.
 
pittsburghgirl said:
Here is the source I was following for stating that she carried out the liquor. The writer suggests that it is also possible that someone stole the alcohol.

http://southshorexpress.com/extras/special-reports/83-maura-is-missing-the-epilogue.html



For those who want to look at the Whitman/Hanson Express articles, here is the link to a webpage that includes the whole series as well as other interesting articles.

http://southshorexpress.com/extras/special-reports.html
Click to expand...

Here you go.

http://mauramurray.blogspot.com/2011/07/no-alcohol-missing.html#comments
 
Jane Birch said:
As I've mentioned before, knowing without a doubt other factual things Mr. Renner has gotten incorrect, I look on facts reported by him as suspect. This is one of them--though it would make more sense. Still, until I hear this verified elsewhere, I can't accept it.
Click to expand...

I agree, everything Renner posts is suspect. That's why, he says, he posts it, asking for info to verify or contradict. That's the whole point of his blog, according to him. Did you notice that he has corrected some apparent errors based on feedback such as yours? I'm glad he's doing this, mistakes and all. (It's pretty clear that nothing else was working.)
 
Jane Birch said:
As I've mentioned before, knowing without a doubt other factual things Mr. Renner has gotten incorrect, I look on facts reported by him as suspect. This is one of them--though it would make more sense. Still, until I hear this verified elsewhere, I can't accept it.
Click to expand...

I totally 100% agree. I remember reading an article early on about Maura's disappearance. This article was used over and over again and with a different reporters name each time. Each time it was read by someone it was misquoted a lot of times. So many people are posting lies, half truths and exaggerations there is no real way of knowing what is true. I have also seen Fred Murray misquoted.

As far as Mr Renner goes I don't personally know him and I'm betting no one here does either. As far as I know he is the first man who actually traveled to the scene and is trying to interview the actual people involved. If he is changing some stuff along the way then that to me means he cares about detail and truth.

Jane I was wondering if you could give us an example of something that Mr Renner have gotten incorrect and as you say you know for a fact, I would like to know how you know? Please don't take offense to this it's just so many people use the phrase "know for a fact" and I am just a guy reading a computer screen. This could also possibly help me and some others here to better form an opinion about Mr Renner. Thanks
 
Telemag, I did so earlier when you asked, shortly after I joined earlier this summer.

Also, I know folks like Maribeth Conway have gone to NH and interviewed people--with mixed results (some people would not give interviews to certain people, but did to others). Renner is not the first by any means. It's one of the reasons people are shutting doors in his face now--they're tired of being asked the same questions over and over again.
 
Jane Birch said:
Telemag, I did so earlier when you asked, shortly after I joined earlier this summer.

Also, I know folks like Maribeth Conway have gone to NH and interviewed people--with mixed results (some people would not give interviews to certain people, but did to others). Renner is not the first by any means. It's one of the reasons people are shutting doors in his face now--they're tired of being asked the same questions over and over again.
Click to expand...

OK, so let me word it another way. I posted a link to Mr. Renners blog for someone and you quoted it as to insinuate that it was not correct info. Do you know it to be false? I am speaking of the liquor that was left behind in the car.
 
telemag said:
OK, so let me word it another way. I posted a link to Mr. Renners blog for someone and you quoted it as to insinuate that it was not correct info. Do you know it to be false? I am speaking of the liquor that was left behind in the car.
Click to expand...

It comes down to either Mari Beth Conway got her information wrong or James Renner has gotten the info wrong concerning the alcohol.

Conway has reported that some of the alcohol came up missing while James has reported in his blog that all the alcohol was accounted for.

The police knew exactly how much alcohol maura had because she had the receipt from the liquor store in her car still.
 
scoops said:
It comes down to either Mari Beth Conway got her information wrong or James Renner has gotten the info wrong concerning the alcohol.

Conway has reported that some of the alcohol came up missing while James has reported in his blog that all the alcohol was accounted for.

The police knew exactly how much alcohol maura had because she had the receipt from the liquor store in her car still.
Click to expand...

Scoops, instead of trying to remember what was said I have posted in quotes what Mr Renner said. (posted below) Also notice the anonymous poster who claims to be a journalist. The journalist (could this be Mari Beth Conway?) claims a lead investigator told him or her that the liquor was missing where Mr Renner said he was in the room with the police officer while he read the police report on the computer. Being unbiased this sounds more credible to me than second hand info even if it was from an investigator.

No alcohol missing.
Official word from Haverhill PD: all booze was accounted for. Vodka. Baileys. Wine. Maura left it all behind in the car.


Like I said, little things have been mis-reported for years. Best to start from the ground up and see where it takes us.




Anonymous said...
I'm a journalist who worked on this story and was told by a lead investigator that some of the liquor was missing. It was assumed that Maura took it with her after the accident.

July 31, 2011 1:45 PM

James Renner said...
I sat in a room with a police officer who read the report on his computer.

July 31, 2011 3:05 PM
 
As I thought I'd made clear (but apparently didn't) because I know OTHER things to be factually inaccurate, I question ALL his facts. This is not one I know for a fact, but it is one of which I am suspicious.
 
Here is where I come down on this. Renner rightly says that things get misreported; then (and this is me speaking) those misreported statements make it to blogs and Wikipedia and that statement becomes a "Fact," even though it isn't true.

Now, the reporting that Conway did in a newspaper, under the supervision of an editor, has not been contradicted or corrected in or by a mainstream news source. In either case, we do not know who the source was, what indvidual from LE. Until Renner provides a source more specific than "Haverhill PD," this is all still in question for me. His reporting is considerably further down the road than the work done in the Whitman-Hanson reports, which have been widely circulated. Any reporter can be wrong, but I put more trust in a major investigative series than a blog written by a guy who has just started to look at the case. Meanwhile, I am going back to the police report to see if that clears up the issue.

Peabody, do you know which of these accounts of the liquor is true?
 
Mr. Renner did name his source just not the individual. I guess someone would have to ask him directly if they want to know the officers name. I do not know anything about MBC so I can not speak about her. I will say that if you want to find out the truth about anything the best way to find out is to ask a witness directly to their face. Even then in some cases you may not get the correct answer. I'll tell you this and this is just me, if I wanted to find out what was found in Maura's car I would drive to Haverhill and go straight to the police station and ask to see the report. ANYTHING!!! other than that is guess work and heresay.
 
And that brings us to the crux of this troubling case: try doing just that (going to Haverhill PD and asking for information) and see what happens. Fred, her very own father, had to SUE them to get any information.
 
Jane Birch said:
And that brings us to the crux of this troubling case: try doing just that (going to Haverhill PD and asking for information) and see what happens. Fred, her very own father, had to SUE them to get any information.
Click to expand...

You get more flies with honey. I'm in sales for a living and one thing I've learned it's all about how you go about getting the info you want. I've gotten info that I NEVER should have gotten for the most part because I was nice. People love to talk, but not when they feel like they are being forced.
 
If my daughter was missing, and LE wouldn't tell me anything, I probably wouldn't be nice. The whole case started off wrong; LE never called Fred to report the wrecked car, although he was the owner of record and the driver had disappeared. That was a major mistake and by the time Fred got up to NH, Maura's "first 48" hours (that fabled time span in which missing cases are most likely to be solved) was pretty much gone. Then Scarinza either makes a mistake about the note in the room at UMass or spins the note to support suicide (take your pick, who knows?). Then there are the puzzling anomalies in the accident report (e.g., marking drinking as a factor when the police officer never saw Maura, indicating the car hit the trees when it clearly didn't, etc. So it is not surprising that the parent/famiy of the missing woman isn't a big fan of LE involved in the case.
 
pittsburghgirl said:
If my daughter was missing, and LE wouldn't tell me anything, I probably wouldn't be nice. The whole case started off wrong; LE never called Fred to report the wrecked car, although he was the owner of record and the driver had disappeared. That was a major mistake and by the time Fred got up to NH, Maura's "first 48" hours (that fabled time span in which missing cases are most likely to be solved) was pretty much gone. Then Scarinza either makes a mistake about the note in the room at UMass or spins the note to support suicide (take your pick, who knows?). Then there are the puzzling anomalies in the accident report (e.g., marking drinking as a factor when the police officer never saw Maura, indicating the car hit the trees when it clearly didn't, etc. So it is not surprising that the parent/famiy of the missing woman isn't a big fan of LE involved in the case.
Click to expand...

there is no "first 48 hours" rule with this case. The police handled the first 48 appropriately. They were not working a homicide, merely an abandoned car left by someone who left signs that they had been drinking (that kind of thing happens all the time)

and once again, I fail to see how Lt. Scarinza "made a mistake" about a note.
A -- He is either making up the note (which I highly doubt since Billy was in the room the same time they did a search)

B--- He is not wrong about the author of the note being Billy. He safely stated that Maura left a personal note for her boyfriend. That is a very distinct difference than saying Maura wrote a note to her boyfriend.
As James uncovered in his blog, she printed out an old email from her boyfriend that highlighted his infidelity in their relationship and left it out in the open on top of her packed boxes. That would definitely qualify as Maura leaving a personal note for her boyfriend and is not misleading at all, maybe vague, but that is how police will be when making statements to the public.
 
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