CONVICTION OVERTURNED MD - Hae Min Lee, 17, Baltimore, 13 Jan 1999

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Agreed.

I don't think she should have told this story without the participation of the victim's family. When Hae's family declined to comment, she should have stepped away. By Koenig not doing that, the podcast became a mouthpiece for Hae's convicted killer. I don't speak for them, obviously, and I don't know them, but if that were my relative who had been murdered, I'd feel re victimized by the podcast.


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Right? Hae had been lost in her own story.

I think the wrongfully convicted/innocence project movement is long overdue, and acknowledge the travesty of justice that needs correction, but I am waiting for the pendulum to swing back to center.

[emoji92] Justice for Hae [emoji92]

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I have to admit most of my knowledge came from Serial to start with, and then what I read afterwards. But two things always stuck with me. The first was that the police didn't really pay much attention to her current boyfriend at the time, only Adnan. I'm sure I read somewhere (apologies as I have no idea where) that his alibi was a bit shaky. The store where he worked said he was in another store on that day, but they either couldn't find the evidence to back it up or there was another reason to doubt this. But no one ever chased it up.
Secondly, that the body, according to the later medical evidence discussed in Serial, was left somewhere (not in the boot of a car) for several hours/days and I don't think Adnan could have had the opportunity to leave a dead body lying around.

And this is why AS shouldn't of been convicted but he was, I don't know if he's guilty or not but for a 17 year old to have to do a full life term for his first crime because he won't admit to the murder he says he didn't do seems a little unfair and let's not even get into whether his trial was fair and just or not.
If I was him I'd of said I'd done it years ago at least I would be out on parole by now, some kids that did murders at the same time as him were getting out after only 10 years.


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Thanks, that's the kind of thing I was searching for. A place where people discuss what actually is known to have happened. More facts, less emotion.

Serialpodcastorigins is NOT the best place for facts.
 
If I was him I'd of said I'd done it years ago at least I would be out on parole by now, some kids that did murders at the same time as him were getting out after only 10 years.


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This is another reason why I believe his innocence, purely because his maintaining his innocence cost him more than if he had admitted to it. After all this time, he's still fighting it.
 
This is another reason why I believe his innocence, purely because his maintaining his innocence cost him more than if he had admitted to it. After all this time, he's still fighting it.

Convicted murderers typically maintain their innocence. If we let everyone who says they're innocent out of jail, there would be almost no one left in there.

Also, Adnan has big incentives to insist that he's innocent. His biggest supporter, Rabia Chaudry, has said she would turn her back on him if he confessed. He also allowed his family and religious community to make big financial sacrifices to fund his defense. The continued donations and gifts that keep him relatively comfortable in jail would stop. His crime has grown, in a way, and it would be very difficult for him to turn back now. It would take a level of integrity that he lacks, in my opinion.

It was revealing during Serial when Adnan said that he just wanted "it" to be over, "it" being Sarah Koenig's relatively mild questions. Wouldn't an innocent person jump at the chance to explain themselves? It's not an ordeal to explain yourself if you're innocent. But Adnan just wanted to be left alone to do his time. I thought that that moment was telling.


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Convicted murderers typically maintain their innocence. If we let everyone who says they're innocent out of jail, there would be almost no one left in there.

Also, Adnan has big incentives to insist that he's innocent. His biggest supporter, Rabia Chaudry, has said she would turn her back on him if he confessed. He also allowed his family and religious community to make big financial sacrifices to fund his defense. The continued donations and gifts that keep him relatively comfortable in jail would stop. His crime has grown, in a way, and it would be very difficult for him to turn back now. It would take a level of integrity that he lacks, in my opinion.

It was revealing during Serial when Adnan said that he just wanted "it" to be over, "it" being Sarah Koenig's relatively mild questions. Wouldn't an innocent person jump at the chance to explain themselves? It's not an ordeal to explain yourself if you're innocent. But Adnan just wanted to be left alone to do his time. I thought that that moment was telling.


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Precisely. Im interested to see what's going on wth the DNA testing. If I recall correctly, the innocence project had agreed to test DNA and then Adnan - or his attorney, forgive me, my memory isn't great with this case - had decided against the testing? Is that still the current state of affairs?

I'm all for a retrial. Although I'm on the side of guilt, I can understand some of the claims of ineffective counsel, given his attorney health issues at the time. However, Darlie Routier - and hundreds of convicted criminals - still shout of their innocence for decades. It's become their mantra, they won't change it...likely ever. IMO


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Precisely. Im interested to see what's going on wth the DNA testing. If I recall correctly, the innocence project had agreed to test DNA and then Adnan - or his attorney, forgive me, my memory isn't great with this case - had decided against the testing? Is that still the current state of affairs?

I'm all for a retrial. Although I'm on the side of guilt, I can understand some of the claims of ineffective counsel, given his attorney health issues at the time. However, Darlie Routier - and hundreds of convicted criminals - still shout of their innocence for decades. It's become their mantra, they won't change it...likely ever. IMO


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The IP had said testing should be done, assuming the evidence is still in existence. It's still a possibility but Adnan's attorney wants to follow the legal path they're on first. If there is DNA from under Hae's fingernails, it doesn't necessarily prove anything either way. If it's not Adnan's, it could potentially match another person if it's in the database. If it is Adnan's, it's not necessarily there because he was strangling her...they were known to have been in the same place that day, so it could have gotten there another way.

People who believe Adnan is guilty say the delay in testing the DNA is proof positive, but it's not.
 
It was revealing during Serial when Adnan said that he just wanted "it" to be over, "it" being Sarah Koenig's relatively mild questions. Wouldn't an innocent person jump at the chance to explain themselves? It's not an ordeal to explain yourself if you're innocent. But Adnan just wanted to be left alone to do his time. I thought that that moment was telling.

From the penultimate episode, Episode 11, of Serial:
This second guessing, this monitoring of everything he says to me, and therefore to the outside world, about anything really, but especially about his case. He writes in his letter that it’s crazy-making.

“I’m always overthinking. Analyzing what I say, how it sounds and the fact that people always think I’m lying. All this thinking, it’s to protect myself from being hurt. Not from being accused of Hae’s murder, but from being accused of being manipulative or lying. And I know it’s crazy, I know I’m paranoid, but I can never shake it because no matter what I do, or how careful I am, it always comes back. I guess the only thing I could ask you to do is, if none of this makes any sense to you, just read it again. Except this time, please imagine that I really am innocent. And then maybe it’ll make sense to you.”​

At this point he wrote “It doesn’t matter to me how your story portrays me, guilty or innocent. I just want it to be over.”
 
Currently listening to Serial for the 3rd time. 1st time around, without reading any other evidence I believed innocent. 2nd time I wasn't sure. Now, I fully believe AS is guilty. For him to be innocent, he would have to be the most unlucky person on the planet.


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Chiming in to an old topic as a new poster. I listened to Serial and the other podcast. I looked at a lot of evidence and do believe 100% that Adnan is guilty. People keep getting hung up on Jay d/t his story changing and supposed police prompting. I honestly believe Jay might have been more involved or perhaps knew more than he wanted to admit. Nevertheless, he helped bury her or was present at this time. He wanted to distance himself as much as possible from the whole thing and therefore only told minimal information. The police prodded him and his anxiety about the situation resulted in him telling different versions. I've told varying stories before to avoid trouble.

Bottom line, he knew where Hae's car was. He knew enough about the murder to tell them how to find the car and apparently the means in which she was murdered. The problem is motive, Jay has none. Nothing I've seen gives credence to the idea that Jay would kill this girl. He barely knew her. While on topic of other suspects, the new boyfriend doesn't even register. No motive at all and no indication.

Adnan had the motive and possible unstable mood. Adnan was also totally unaccounted for during the afternoon she went missing. The eye witness who claims she saw him at the library is most likely wrong, at least about the date in question. The eye witness's note to Adnan was questionable anyhow. Seemed fishy.

Regardless, and never mind the cell phone records, Adnan is guilty for so many reasons. You could tell when he talked to Sarah K that he wasn't innocent. He seemed bothered by even talking to her. She tells him she wants to know if he is innocent and believe that he is, but he gets defensive and resistant. He actually remarks "How do you know I'm a good person? You don't know me?". Not exactly the kind of response that instills confidence in a man who wants people to think he's wrongly convicted. He didn't even have a good story or alibi. Just run of the mill "I'm innocent, what do you want from me?".

Adnan is guilty and is right where he belongs imo.
 
I totally agree.

Chiming in to an old topic as a new poster. I listened to Serial and the other podcast. I looked at a lot of evidence and do believe 100% that Adnan is guilty. People keep getting hung up on Jay d/t his story changing and supposed police prompting. I honestly believe Jay might have been more involved or perhaps knew more than he wanted to admit. Nevertheless, he helped bury her or was present at this time. He wanted to distance himself as much as possible from the whole thing and therefore only told minimal information. The police prodded him and his anxiety about the situation resulted in him telling different versions. I've told varying stories before to avoid trouble.

Bottom line, he knew where Hae's car was. He knew enough about the murder to tell them how to find the car and apparently the means in which she was murdered. The problem is motive, Jay has none. Nothing I've seen gives credence to the idea that Jay would kill this girl. He barely knew her. While on topic of other suspects, the new boyfriend doesn't even register. No motive at all and no indication.

Adnan had the motive and possible unstable mood. Adnan was also totally unaccounted for during the afternoon she went missing. The eye witness who claims she saw him at the library is most likely wrong, at least about the date in question. The eye witness's note to Adnan was questionable anyhow. Seemed fishy.

Regardless, and never mind the cell phone records, Adnan is guilty for so many reasons. You could tell when he talked to Sarah K that he wasn't innocent. He seemed bothered by even talking to her. She tells him she wants to know if he is innocent and believe that he is, but he gets defensive and resistant. He actually remarks "How do you know I'm a good person? You don't know me?". Not exactly the kind of response that instills confidence in a man who wants people to think he's wrongly convicted. He didn't even have a good story or alibi. Just run of the mill "I'm innocent, what do you want from me?".

Adnan is guilty and is right where he belongs imo.
 
There is no justice if an innocent man is convicted of a crime he did not commit. Adan Syed's guilt is far from certain. Lividity of the victim is in complete contradiction to Jay's many versions of events. There is absolute evidence of prompting of Jay as a witness. In fact, Jay Wild's overall credibility is in question. There is a history of corrupt activities on the part of some of the lead investigators.

Hae Min Lee deserves real justice.

Right? Hae had been lost in her own story.

I think the wrongfully convicted/innocence project movement is long overdue, and acknowledge the travesty of justice that needs correction, but I am waiting for the pendulum to swing back to center.

[emoji92] Justice for Hae [emoji92]

ddc1819c890103150056a47a20962224.jpg


https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.in...rial-victim-as-her-family-slams-new-trial/amp
Sent from my LG-H740 using Tapatalk
 
There is no justice if an innocent man is convicted of a crime he did not commit. Adan Syed's guilt is far from certain. Lividity of the victim is in complete contradiction to Jay's many versions of events. There is absolute evidence of prompting of Jay as a witness. In fact, Jay Wild's overall credibility is in question. There is a history of corrupt activities on the part of some of the lead investigators.

Hae Min Lee deserves real justice.

Poking holes is easily demonstrated in most criminal cases. Look at all the doubt in the OJ case that supporters of him have ushered in, never mind the fact that his blood was at the scene and the victims blood was found in his vehicle and home. Even Dr. Michael Baden claims that OJ couldn't have acted alone, but I disagree.

You have to take into account that everyone has a bias. Have these pathologists reviewed every single photo? Did they actually see the body? You're also assuming people are experts based on title, or that mistakes are never made. I work in healthcare as an RN, and I can tell you, most doctors, nurses, and ancillary support have limited knowledge and make mistakes all the time. Every industry has that aspect of average knowledge, whereby a small minority can claim "expert" status.

My point again, those who question Adnan's guilt seem to pick and choose the narrative that supports their theory. Either Jay was completely lying or he wasn't? The fact of the matter is that Jay pointed them to Hae's car. How could he have done that if he wasn't involved? That explicitly removes a random killing, associates Adnan with motive, and clearly sets the stage for a strong circumstantial case. You do realize most cases are circumstantial.

Could the police have manipulated things to get the right story, or the story that made the most sense for filling in the holes to present to the court? Absolutely. Did Jay tell different versions of events to police? Yup. I do believe that Jay was more involved that he wants anyone to realize. In an ideal world he would be locked up as well. He was granted immunity in exchange for Adnan who he told actually killed Hae. Now if Adnan wasn't involved, how or why would Jay implicate him? That makes no sense.

In terms of lividity, it is extremely plausible that Hae was buried a short time later and/or moved. Jay even said they returned to the site closer to midnight, which is a perfect time for the lividity claim. Besides, at what point does Jay recant any of his story or clear Adnan of the murder? He has only changed times and exactness to explain thing better and mostly make him look less guilty. That is what everyone does.
 
If Adnan wasn't involved, Jay would implicate him because if he didn't, Jay is the one who would have been accused of the murder.
 
The lividity is in complete contradiction to any of Jay's versions of events. And my doubt of Adan's guilt is based on evidence, not on Jay--other than that there is a tape of one of his critical interviews, where he does appear to be prompted-and certainly has difficulty keeping his story straight. There are also a lot of valid questions around the defense attorney Syed had. She was suffering from late stages of MS and had taken on a larger work-load than would have been advisable, even for a healthy attorney. Her performance is also in question.

Undisclosed and all the supporting blogs around that podcasts, present data to at the very least support a valid questioning of the outcome of this case. The findings are not conclusive, but definitely point to a need to revisit the evidence. I think Syed deserves a new trial.


Poking holes is easily demonstrated in most criminal cases. Look at all the doubt in the OJ case that supporters of him have ushered in, never mind the fact that his blood was at the scene and the victims blood was found in his vehicle and home. Even Dr. Michael Baden claims that OJ couldn't have acted alone, but I disagree.

You have to take into account that everyone has a bias. Have these pathologists reviewed every single photo? Did they actually see the body? You're also assuming people are experts based on title, or that mistakes are never made. I work in healthcare as an RN, and I can tell you, most doctors, nurses, and ancillary support have limited knowledge and make mistakes all the time. Every industry has that aspect of average knowledge, whereby a small minority can claim "expert" status.

My point again, those who question Adnan's guilt seem to pick and choose the narrative that supports their theory. Either Jay was completely lying or he wasn't? The fact of the matter is that Jay pointed them to Hae's car. How could he have done that if he wasn't involved? That explicitly removes a random killing, associates Adnan with motive, and clearly sets the stage for a strong circumstantial case. You do realize most cases are circumstantial.

Could the police have manipulated things to get the right story, or the story that made the most sense for filling in the holes to present to the court? Absolutely. Did Jay tell different versions of events to police? Yup. I do believe that Jay was more involved that he wants anyone to realize. In an ideal world he would be locked up as well. He was granted immunity in exchange for Adnan who he told actually killed Hae. Now if Adnan wasn't involved, how or why would Jay implicate him? That makes no sense.

In terms of lividity, it is extremely plausible that Hae was buried a short time later and/or moved. Jay even said they returned to the site closer to midnight, which is a perfect time for the lividity claim. Besides, at what point does Jay recant any of his story or clear Adnan of the murder? He has only changed times and exactness to explain thing better and mostly make him look less guilty. That is what everyone does.
 
Not necessarily. If Jay is fabricating his story it isn't necessarily because he killed Hae, or that he even knows who did. Wilds was in a tough spot, because he was a low-level drug dealer who dealt out of his grandmother's home. Had LE gone after him for the drugs, due to forfeiture laws, his grandmother could have lost her home. Whether Wild's was coerced is not certain, but there are indications that he might have been coerced--or was deliberately lying in hopes of garnering favor with LE.

Again, all the questions around the case are not presented as proof of Adnan's guilt or innocence, what they point to is a need for the case to be reexamined. There are major problems with the state's case--including the fact that Adnan appears to have an alibi for the time he is believed to have killed Hae. Asia McClain's testimony alone, warrants a new trial.

If Adnan wasn't involved, Jay would implicate him because if he didn't, Jay is the one who would have been accused of the murder.
 
If Adnan wasn't involved, Jay would implicate him because if he didn't, Jay is the one who would have been accused of the murder.

And that's assuming that Adnan is innocent. Adnan never took the stand, and in fact with respect to Jay's proclamation of Adnan's guilt, Adnan simply says "I don't know". I don't know? I've seen nothing from Adnan to suggest that Jay might have killed her or who actually did. His voice of innocence has been weak at best.

Not to mention, Jay had no motive at all. Unless he was paid by Adnan, but then again, there is little doubt the two were together that day.
 
The lividity is in complete contradiction to any of Jay's versions of events. And my doubt of Adan's guilt is based on evidence, not on Jay--other than that there is a tape of one of his critical interviews, where he does appear to be prompted-and certainly has difficulty keeping his story straight. There are also a lot of valid questions around the defense attorney Syed had. She was suffering from late stages of MS and had taken on a larger work-load than would have been advisable, even for a healthy attorney. Her performance is also in question.

Undisclosed and all the supporting blogs around that podcasts, present data to at the very least support a valid questioning of the outcome of this case. The findings are not conclusive, but definitely point to a need to revisit the evidence. I think Syed deserves a new trial.

The lividity does not contradict the version he told Intercept. The details that change are the actions that took place around 3 until late evening. I fully believe that Adnan murdered her, left her somewhere undiscovered then decided to return to bury her around midnight. The time between that is almost irrelevant. They were hanging out and trying to look "normal".

I'm not sold on any police prompting. I think they were getting tired of him changing his mind and telling such wishy-washy details. They wanted a simple story to present to the court and jury. They probably stopped that tape so many times and told him to keep it simple, stop with the tangents. As far as that's concerned, why not stop the tape when you want to "prompt" him? My guess is that he would derail and after hours of talking they began to get sick of it and tap on the table and point to his statement, as to say "stick to one story and stay on track!". Again, I realize police are often corrupt, I get it. I also know many have been hung out to dry by police, but this required a starting point. Jay informed them of the car's whereabouts and he told a story, albeit loosely told, that points the finger at Adnan. The police were also called by someone and informed that they should look at Adnan. Why is that? Those calls happen for a reason.

This is frankly one of those cases, where the more you look at the evidence, the more guilty he becomes. He had motive, time, was angry about being dumped and Hae dating again (October note reveals instability), has an associate pinning it on him, and has corrupt police, an inept lawyer, a shady prosecutor, and lord knows what else stacked again him. Talk about unlucky...eh?

And Asia, well, you don't find her story a little suspect?? Why is she pining for his affection? Why does she care about how she spelt his name? Why is she uncertain of his guilt? Her story is bizarre and almost worthless.

So I ask again, why did Jay finger Adnan? How did Jay know about the car? If Adnan wants people to believe he is innocent, then why admit that he was with Jay that day and allowing him to use his vehicle and phone if Jay has implicated him in a murder??

As stated by a homicide detective in Baltimore: "The first rule of homicide investigation is this: everyone lies. The witnesses. The family. Everybody, no exceptions. The job of a cop is to find out who lied about what and why."

Call me jaded and cynical after working in corporate debt collection and now mental health, but I fail to see how anyone could listen to Adnan and hear innocence. He sounds like all the manipulative liars I've dealt with over the years trying to scam their way through life.
 
How is frontal lividity consistent with Jay Wild's version of events? What does Asia McClain have to gain by lying?

It's not a matter of listening to Adnan Syed, it's a matter of correctly interpreting the evidence.

The lividity does not contradict the version he told Intercept. The details that change are the actions that took place around 3 until late evening. I fully believe that Adnan murdered her, left her somewhere undiscovered then decided to return to bury her around midnight. The time between that is almost irrelevant. They were hanging out and trying to look "normal".

I'm not sold on any police prompting. I think they were getting tired of him changing his mind and telling such wishy-washy details. They wanted a simple story to present to the court and jury. They probably stopped that tape so many times and told him to keep it simple, stop with the tangents. As far as that's concerned, why not stop the tape when you want to "prompt" him? My guess is that he would derail and after hours of talking they began to get sick of it and tap on the table and point to his statement, as to say "stick to one story and stay on track!". Again, I realize police are often corrupt, I get it. I also know many have been hung out to dry by police, but this required a starting point. Jay informed them of the car's whereabouts and he told a story, albeit loosely told, that points the finger at Adnan. The police were also called by someone and informed that they should look at Adnan. Why is that? Those calls happen for a reason.

This is frankly one of those cases, where the more you look at the evidence, the more guilty he becomes. He had motive, time, was angry about being dumped and Hae dating again (October note reveals instability), has an associate pinning it on him, and has corrupt police, an inept lawyer, a shady prosecutor, and lord knows what else stacked again him. Talk about unlucky...eh?

And Asia, well, you don't find her story a little suspect?? Why is she pining for his affection? Why does she care about how she spelt his name? Why is she uncertain of his guilt? Her story is bizarre and almost worthless.

So I ask again, why did Jay finger Adnan? How did Jay know about the car? If Adnan wants people to believe he is innocent, then why admit that he was with Jay that day and allowing him to use his vehicle and phone if Jay has implicated him in a murder??

As stated by a homicide detective in Baltimore: "The first rule of homicide investigation is this: everyone lies. The witnesses. The family. Everybody, no exceptions. The job of a cop is to find out who lied about what and why."

Call me jaded and cynical after working in corporate debt collection and now mental health, but I fail to see how anyone could listen to Adnan and hear innocence. He sounds like all the manipulative liars I've dealt with over the years trying to scam their way through life.
 
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