Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #3

Lanie said:

Respectfully snipped for space.

All the things listed, they don't just stand alone. Casey didn't do just one of these things, she did them all, and the sum of all these things is what looks bad.
You refer to her nightmares. Yes, she did have them, but we don't know over what. You may assume they were over the accidental death of her child, but they could just as easily have been over the fear Caylee's remains would be found, or over TonE dumping her, or over Cindy catching up to her, or any number of other things. She could have had a bad reaction to one of the movies she and TonE rented hours after she killed her daughter, and have been having nightmares over that.
Let's go back to before Caylee was killed. Casey chose to perpetuate a lie for over 2 and a half years about having a job. This gave her the opportunity from the time Caylee was about 2 or 3 months old to pawn Caylee off on someone else. We know Lauren kept her for 8 or 9 months, we know Jesse and his mother kept her for at least a few months, and we know Cindy watched her from time to time. By the time Caylee was killed, Casey was reduced to pretending like she was going to work, then sneaking back to the house with Caylee, because, IMO, she was stuck with her. I think she got a reprieve the first week of June, while Cindy was on vacation, then it was back to all Caylee all the time. She may have been mouthing the words Caylee was her number one priority, but does this behavior look like someone who enjoys motherhood? She may have been going to parties, but there were also parties she missed. She simply did not have the freedom to come and go as she pleased like most of the people she was hanging out did. (Of course, they weren't all that free, either, working and going to school, but I don't think Casey is able to comprehend that.)
She also had issues of jealousy towards Caylee. There seems to be some competition for affection in the Caylee/Cindy/Casey triangle, she broke up with Jesse because he liked Caylee better than her.
Ricardo says when they were together, they didn't do much. Yeah, Casey could take Caylee over there, but she wasn't getting to go out. AR didn't seem to have any interest in Caylee, and while TonE seems to have liked her, he worked as a DJ, he was going out to clubs, etc., so who is going to watch Caylee so Casey can go with him?
I could go on and on. I think all these things were building up for a few months leading up to June 16. I think Casey was thinking about killing Caylee for a while. I don't think she had really formed a plan, but I do think it was in her mind she would be better off if Caylee were dead. I think everything came to a head, maybe even a few days before June 16, and that was the first opportunity she had to get rid of Caylee for good.
Lanie

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What a great post!! I agree 100%

Following on from post 1126 – the facts and evidence that I believe support an accidental drowning followed by a cowardly and callous cover-up include:

1)Pictures of KC and Caylee together
Many of these show real affection between the two IMO.

2)The consistent testimonies from KC's friends
They all say (without exception) that she cared about Caylee, was a good mother, was never mean to her, always made sure she had all Caylee's needs covered if she was out and about (sippy cup/diapers/snacks etc) disciplined her appropriately, interacted with her etc.

3)The evidence of the emotionally unhealthy inter-dependence in the relationship between KC/CA
We have observed CA's need for control and the importance to her of image, plus the evidence of CA criticising KC and putting her down in front of others etc. I suspect that KC frequently felt anger towards her mother for a variety of reasons, but that her deep-seated emotional need for CA's love and approval was much stronger. I think she feared loosing that more than anything LE could do to her, and could not face CA's wrath and condemnation, or of having her criticism and accusations proved right.

4)The place of death
If KC had been thinking about killing Caylee for some time, would she really have elected to commit that heinous act right on her own doorstep? If she had planned poisoning by chloroform, or suffocation, or anything else that has been suggested, wouldn't it have been more logical to commit this act somewhere other than her own home, so that no evidence could possibly be discovered by her parents. She could have taken Caylee out in the car to any number of secluded locations and committed the act there. Murders that happen in the home are more usually unplanned emotion-driven spontaneous reactions.

5)The pool ladder and open gate
I think CA/GA were telling the truth about these. It's also possible that the rumour that Caylee's swimsuit was found with the remains is true. I have not yet heard any feasible alternative explanation for this evidence from any one who believes it was not an accident.

6)KC's computer and cell phone activity on the afternoon of June 16
She was awfully busy during the relatively short time that she was back at the house after GA went to work that day. There were very long phone calls plus activity on the PC right up until 3.00pm. If KC was as p****d off and angry as some believe, and so intent on getting rid of Caylee that afternoon, it seems strange that she took the time to chat calmly with her friends and upload videos (of Caylee) to the PC before committing the act. I wonder if she had it scheduled into her diary –
2.00 – 3.00pm....phone friends and upload Caylee's Father's Day video
3.00 – 4.00pm.....kill Caylee and tidy up
4.00pm ..... date with LA

7) The location of the computer room in relation to the back yard and pool
The computer room is on the opposite side of the house from the back yard and there is very little view of the yard (probably none if the PC desk faced a wall), and absolutely no view of the pool area. When KC was in that room, chatting on the phone and using the PC, what was Caylee doing? If she had gone out to the back yard, bored and in need of some stimulation, KC would not have seen if she had gone near the pool!

I'm sure I'll think of more, but that'll do for now.

I agree that she placed the duct tape over Caylee's mouth after she was dead, to make it look like an abduction. She already had planned the kidnapping story. I also agree that Caylee was almost 3 and really talking by now, which could certainly put a cramp in any of KC's stories, Caylee could let anything slip to Cindy from that point on.

Devon said:

Following on from post 1126 – the facts and evidence that I believe support an accidental drowning followed by a cowardly and callous cover-up include:

1)Pictures of KC and Caylee together
Many of these show real affection between the two IMO.
Most of these pictures are posed. We also have proof Casey lied about working and dumped Caylee off on others from the time Caylee was 2 or 3 months old. Casey wasn't working, she didn't have to leave her infant, but she lied, and she did, and it wasn't for just a few hours here and there.

2)The consistent testimonies from KC's friends
They all say (without exception) that she cared about Caylee, was a good mother, was never mean to her, always made sure she had all Caylee's needs covered if she was out and about (sippy cup/diapers/snacks etc) disciplined her appropriately, interacted with her etc.
They also say Casey adapted her personality to fit whoever she was around. I think Casey had several 'roles' in her reportorie, and loving, attentive mother was just one of them, but still a role she played.
3)The evidence of the emotionally unhealthy inter-dependence in the relationship between KC/CA
We have observed CA's need for control and the importance to her of image, plus the evidence of CA criticising KC and putting her down in front of others etc. I suspect that KC frequently felt anger towards her mother for a variety of reasons, but that her deep-seated emotional need for CA's love and approval was much stronger. I think she feared loosing that more than anything LE could do to her, and could not face CA's wrath and condemnation, or of having her criticism and accusations proved right.
If you kick a dog enough, it might keep slinking away with it's tail between it's legs, or it might turn on you.

4)The place of death
If KC had been thinking about killing Caylee for some time, would she really have elected to commit that heinous act right on her own doorstep? If she had planned poisoning by chloroform, or suffocation, or anything else that has been suggested, wouldn't it have been more logical to commit this act somewhere other than her own home, so that no evidence could possibly be discovered by her parents. She could have taken Caylee out in the car to any number of secluded locations and committed the act there. Murders that happen in the home are more usually unplanned emotion-driven spontaneous reactions.
Bolded by me. You expect logical thinking from a woman who invented the 'Zanny the Nanny' story? Who lied about being pregnant? Can you reference a couple of logical things Casey has done?

5)The pool ladder and open gate
I think CA/GA were telling the truth about these. It's also possible that the rumour that Caylee's swimsuit was found with the remains is true. I have not yet heard any feasible alternative explanation for this evidence from any one who believes it was not an accident.
Cindy and George may have been telling the truth about the ladder and the open gate. So what? We have a pool, and my son put his dirtbike in the backyard and left the gate wide open. I don't know how long it was like that, yet no one drowned in my pool.
Validating the rumor of the swimsuit.
#1. Cindy said she and Caylee were swimming the evening of June 15th. If the other rumor is true, the one about Cindy and Casey getting into a physical altercation, this is what could have happened. Casey is angry, grabs Caylee, still in her swimsuit, and drags her into Casey's room. She puts Caylee into her bed, still in her swimsuit. She doesn't dress her the next day. George did not see them, and Casey kills Caylee as soon as the coast is clear, still in her swimsuit.
#2. Casey dresses Caylee in her swimsuit because she is going to drown her in the pool. She gets her outside, realizes what a pain it is going to be to carry out this plan, takes her back in, and...(pick your cause of death.)


6)KC's computer and cell phone activity on the afternoon of June 16
She was awfully busy during the relatively short time that she was back at the house after GA went to work that day. There were very long phone calls plus activity on the PC right up until 3.00pm. If KC was as p****d off and angry as some believe, and so intent on getting rid of Caylee that afternoon, it seems strange that she took the time to chat calmly with her friends and upload videos (of Caylee) to the PC before committing the act. I wonder if she had it scheduled into her diary –
2.00 – 3.00pm....phone friends and upload Caylee's Father's Day video
3.00 – 4.00pm.....kill Caylee and tidy up
4.00pm ..... date with LA
Caylee could have been dead within 5 minutes of them returning to the house. Remember, this woman potentially drove around for 2-3 days with her daughter's body rotting in the trunk of her car. I don't think it is a big leap to think she killed her, left her where she lay, talked to her friends, had computer time, all while Caylee's body was laying there, and then put her in the trunk in enough time to get over to TonE's for movie night.

7) The location of the computer room in relation to the back yard and pool
The computer room is on the opposite side of the house from the back yard and there is very little view of the yard (probably none if the PC desk faced a wall), and absolutely no view of the pool area. When KC was in that room, chatting on the phone and using the PC, what was Caylee doing? If she had gone out to the back yard, bored and in need of some stimulation, KC would not have seen if she had gone near the pool!
She may have already been dead. She may have been duct taped and thrown in a corner.
Here's my question to you. June 16th, 2008, was not the only day by a long shot Casey was home with Caylee, talking on the phone, playing on the computer, etc. What was Caylee doing on all those other days?

I'm sure I'll think of more, but that'll do for now.

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My responses in red.
Lanie

Devon - could you please post the links you mentioned about the shot up Caylees dress? I've watched several on youtube that are very well put together. Do you think that KC did those videos?

BondJamesBond said:

...the more I think 'bout it...the more I'm thinking George took the spare tire cover mat out to the backyard and cleaned it there where the dogs hit. He likely used the chloroform pesticide either on the mat and/or in the car due to the maggots. Plenty of time to do this before LE came to pick up the Pontiac.

I just don't see Casey showing the initiative...

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Bond - I thought it was CA who cleaned the trunk after she sent GA to WORK but before she found KC?

texas77878 said:

Devon - could you please post the links you mentioned about the shot up Caylees dress? I've watched several on youtube that are very well put together. Do you think that KC did those videos?

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I don't think it was me that mentioned that video, although I do remember reading about it somewhere on here and may have commented. If I come across it I'll post a link but you may get a quicker answer by posting in the 'Questions' thread.

texas77878 said:

Devon - could you please post the links you mentioned about the shot up Caylees dress? I've watched several on youtube that are very well put together. Do you think that KC did those videos?

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Texas, that was me who had a huge problem with THIS

Lanie said:

My responses in red.
Lanie

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Sorry but I couldn't 'quote' your last responses as you had replied within my post, so I've copied your comments here. My further comments are in blue

Most of these pictures are posed. We also have proof Casey lied about working and dumped Caylee off on others from the time Caylee was 2 or 3 months old. Casey wasn't working, she didn't have to leave her infant, but she lied, and she did, and it wasn't for just a few hours here and there.
KC went back to work after Caylee was born – until Spring 2006. She had a genuine need for a sitter until then and I believe that was Lauren. She stopped after she found out KC was no longer working. JG's parents also had Caylee regularly, but this was mutually beneficial for the most part because the G's looked on her as part of their family (even after JG's paternity test) and only lost interest when KC and JG's relationship starting breaking down. I agree that KC abused people's trust and generosity but I'm still not convinced that she needed to kill Caylee in order to maintain her social life - there were plenty more gullible souls waiting in the wings. Also her friend Kristina has said they often babysat each other's children, so along with the grandparents and LA, she still had various options.

They also say Casey adapted her personality to fit whoever she was around. I think Casey had several 'roles' in her reportorie, and loving, attentive mother was just one of them, but still a role she played. JG is the only one who mentioned her tendency to adapt her personality to fit in with each new boyfriend. I can remember pretending I loved football (soccer) to impress one of my beaus in my youth, and another for whom I feigned an interest in socialism! Wicked behaviour I know, but they also initially pretended that they liked things that I did. Needless to say, the romances didn't last long, but this 'fitting in to impress' happens often in the courting game IMO.

If you kick a dog enough, it might keep slinking away with it's tail between it's legs, or it might turn on you. Maybe, but it's more likely to continue blindly loving you if you alternate the kicks with tasty treats and splurges of affection!

Bolded by me. You expect logical thinking from a woman who invented the 'Zanny the Nanny' story? Who lied about being pregnant? Can you reference a couple of logical things Casey has done? The initial 'nanny' story was perfectly logical and worked well for a long time – it was only the later kidnapping part, that could not be substantiated, that defied logic, but by then KC was in a fix and thinking on the hop – her mother had caught up with her and was demanding answers. Trying to hide a pregnancy is not uncommon either. Many girls have gone to term and even given birth right under their parent's noses without them suspecting a thing. It's more a question of shame, guilt and stupidity than logic IMO. I admit I'm a bit stuck on the examples of KC using logic, but then we only know about a part of her life. If she was indeed planning on killing Caylee it still seems reasonable that she would have given some thought to the best place to do it, and her own home doesn't seem the perfect spot to me.

Cindy and George may have been telling the truth about the ladder and the open gate. So what? We have a pool, and my son put his dirtbike in the backyard and left the gate wide open. I don't know how long it was like that, yet no one drowned in my pool. Do you have any small toddlers that you have left without supervision lately?
Validating the rumor of the swimsuit.
#1. Cindy said she and Caylee were swimming the evening of June 15th. If the other rumor is true, the one about Cindy and Casey getting into a physical altercation, this is what could have happened. Casey is angry, grabs Caylee, still in her swimsuit, and drags her into Casey's room. She puts Caylee into her bed, still in her swimsuit. She doesn't dress her the next day. George did not see them, and Casey kills Caylee as soon as the coast is clear, still in her swimsuit. Wasn't Caylee still in night-time diapers? Did she have special swimming diapers? If this is what happened then Caylee would have had either a very waterlogged, or very soiled bottom by the time KC returned to the house in the afternoon of the 16th. I would think Caylee would have taken that off herself as most toddlers of that age don't like spending hours in soiled diapers.
#2. Casey dresses Caylee in her swimsuit because she is going to drown her in the pool. She gets her outside, realizes what a pain it is going to be to carry out this plan, takes her back in, and...(pick your cause of death.) Why would she bother to dress her in her swimsuit just to kill her?

Caylee could have been dead within 5 minutes of them returning to the house. Remember, this woman potentially drove around for 2-3 days with her daughter's body rotting in the trunk of her car. I don't think it is a big leap to think she killed her, left her where she lay, talked to her friends, had computer time, all while Caylee's body was laying there, and then put her in the trunk in enough time to get over to TonE's for movie night.
If Caylee was dead within 5 minutes of returning to the house, she must have been killed outside and left there all the time that KC was uploading the Father's Day video and chatting to her friends because there were no cadaver dog hits inside the house. Not a very good idea when your neighbours might overhear any struggle, muffled cries etc.

She may have already been dead. She may have been duct taped and thrown in a corner.
Here's my question to you. June 16th, 2008, was not the only day by a long shot Casey was home with Caylee, talking on the phone, playing on the computer, etc. What was Caylee doing on all those other days? We have only heard of one day when the ladder was left up against the pool. GA/CA said they were usually very careful about making sure it was put away, so although no doubt there was probably potential for accidents to happen on other occasions if KC was not paying enough attention, it was not likely to have involved the pool.


I realise we could go back and forth forever and still not find any agreement so I will stick to my opinions until evidence convinces me otherwise and respect yours.

Devon said:

KC went back to work after Caylee was born – until Spring 2006. She had a genuine need for a sitter until then and I believe that was Lauren. I realise we could go back and forth forever and still not find any agreement so I will stick to my opinions until evidence convinces me otherwise and respect yours.

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And I will respect your decision and not debate your opinion. However, somewhere in the documents is testimony from Casey's former employer. Casey left work in 2005 before Caylee was born and she never went back. She was officially terminated in April, 2006 because of that. LE was unable to find any verification of employment after summer, 2005.
Lanie

mikeysmommom said:

The police found Caylee with duct tape around her mouth. How can anybody even suggest an accident after knowing that.She Killed her in ice cold blood that much is a fact.

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This is not fact. Yet.

Lanie said:

And I will respect your decision and not debate your opinion. However, somewhere in the documents is testimony from Casey's former employer. Casey left work in 2005 before Caylee was born and she never went back. She was officially terminated in April, 2006 because of that. LE was unable to find any verification of employment after summer, 2005.
Lanie

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Okay, I concede one point to you!

I am shocked that post made it to the board, and will be equally shocked if this one shows up. I have been having difficulty posting in here for several days.
Anyway, Devon, I'm not trying to score one up on anyone. I am interested in some of the debating going on because some valid points are made. To me, it is like brainstorming. I was just throwing out off the top of my head a couple of reasons Caylee might still have her swimsuit on. You are right about it being a long stretch for her still wearing it from the day before. I haven't spent any time trying to explain it away, because I don't think it is true. If it is, does she have more than one swimsuit? How many does she have? Was the one potentially found with her the same one she wore in the pool with Cindy the night before? Didn't one of Casey's friends bring a swimsuit belonging to Caylee to the Anthony's the end of July when they all got together?
Sometimes in these back and forths, something is brought to my attention that I missed, or I am reminded of something I forgot about. I still have quite a few unanswered questions.
About to hit submit with my fingers crossed...
Lanie

maryaok said:

A swimming pool drowning? An accident? A coverup of a neglectful drowning, come on!!!!! That would be a cinch to defend in court. A drugging and duct tape? A lot harder to defend. Besides, why would she have duct tape on her if she drowned? No one can figure out her mind. No one.

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(bold mine) Precisely. But in KC's mind her main judge, and jury, will never be at trial. They are CA, and CA's words, what have you done. It would seem, to this young mother, never considered "fit" in her mother's eyes anyway, to spend life in prison or even to receive the DP where she is at least allowed to take her ZG tales w her must be for her a comparatively light sentence, next to any admission of negligence--for which, she is convinced she will face her mother's eternal judgment and condemnation. JMO

People can debate about accidental death, but even it may have been that, Casey has cooked her own goose. There's now no way to prove that any accident happened and then a cover up. The ladder to the pool wasn't even beside the pool on the 16th anyway. Cindy said it was the next day, and that may not even be true. After the computer searches, the thefts, and going on as if nothing happened, no one (on a jury) in their right mind would even consider accidental death.

Lanie said:

I am shocked that post made it to the board, and will be equally shocked if this one shows up. I have been having difficulty posting in here for several days.
Anyway, Devon, I'm not trying to score one up on anyone. I am interested in some of the debating going on because some valid points are made. To me, it is like brainstorming. I was just throwing out off the top of my head a couple of reasons Caylee might still have her swimsuit on. You are right about it being a long stretch for her still wearing it from the day before. I haven't spent any time trying to explain it away, because I don't think it is true. If it is, does she have more than one swimsuit? How many does she have? Was the one potentially found with her the same one she wore in the pool with Cindy the night before? Didn't one of Casey's friends bring a swimsuit belonging to Caylee to the Anthony's the end of July when they all got together?
Sometimes in these back and forths, something is brought to my attention that I missed, or I am reminded of something I forgot about. I still have quite a few unanswered questions.
About to hit submit with my fingers crossed...
Lanie

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I know you're not trying to score points on anyone Lanie and neither am I. My last post was made tongue in cheek.

None of us know the full facts yet and even some of what we do know seems to raise more questions than it answers. KC may well be a cold-blooded murderess, but I have taken my starting point from the position that I believe a juror has to start at, i.e. that KC is innocent of premeditated murder. When each new piece of information has become available, I have tried to consider whether there might be more than one possible explanation. If there is, I have mentally confined that information to the 'reasonable doubt pile'. As we learn more, that pile may shrink or it may grow. What I do know for sure however is that a sweet innocent child has lost her life, a family has been torn apart by tragedy and a young woman now sits in jail, alone and despised, guilty for sure of sufficient despicable acts to keep her behind bars for many years. I'm just not sure yet whether murder should be on that long list or not.

Caylee was killied for revenge toward Cindy.She is the one suffering now.

Devon said:

5)KC just didn't want Caylee and had no love for her
I haven't formed any firm opinion on KC's relationship with Caylee, and it's possible that the mother/daughter bond was impaired in some way (possibly due to CA's interference and need for control). It may have been nearer to a big/little sister relationship than a true motherly bond, but all of KC's friends and family say she showed Caylee real affection, looked after her well, was never seen to be mean to her, interacted well with her etc. Apart from the odd expression of frustration ( and what young single mother never experiences that?), there is no evidence that I have seen that proves KC did not care for Caylee.

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To me her statement to the effect that "all you care about is finding Caylee" and her subsequent hasty addition of "that's all I care about too" is evidence that Casey was jealous of Caylee.

txsvicki said:

People can debate about accidental death, but even it may have been that, Casey has cooked her own goose. There's now no way to prove that any accident happened and then a cover up. The ladder to the pool wasn't even beside the pool on the 16th anyway. Cindy said it was the next day, and that may not even be true. After the computer searches, the thefts, and going on as if nothing happened, no one (on a jury) in their right mind would even consider accidental death.

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CA said she did not notice until the 16th, just as she did not notice the certified letter notice (nor that her daughter had been stealing, been unemployed for two years, etc). And while I have long said myself that KC likely destroyed the only evidence that could have ever proven negligence, it's insulting to say that for anyone to even consider this possibility--to not simply assume there was malice and intent before this can even be ruled out--is "not in their right mind." It isn't necessary to insult others, and I try to be respectful of their opinions even when I often disagree. JMO

I do not in anyway feel that this was an accident! The point of no return has long since passed for that theory.I think this was an outright spite murder-if I can't keep her-no one can!I also think that Caylee was old enough to start talking-thus the fight.
I do not feel that this in any

way had to do with TL,not wanting a girl,KC was desperate for someone to take her in and love her,remember TL was not the only person she was sleeping with,and was in fact,supposed to be going to California,so she obviously did not truly love TL either,she just wanted a commitment from ANYONE.
I do however have some real concerns about the control that JB seems to have over her,even isolating her from her family,this is typical behavior of an abusive relationship,and KC is a prime candidate to latch on to her "savior".JMO but I suspect that even the judge may suspect this,that is why he ordered her to court.