Peru - Stephany Flores, 21, murdered in Lima hotel room, 30 May 2010 #20

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Merged posts, snipped.

Now you're really being silly. EVERY minor would be charged with assault in that situation. Every last one of them. You want some case law to back that up? Let me know what state your in, and I'll pull several thousand juvenile, AND juvenile charged as adult, cases off of Westlaw or LexisNexis just from your state.

Skewed again: And, Joran's "image" in the minds of others is not a result of others' conjuring an image in a vacuum, it is the image HE firmly established of himself.

Joran is depicted, in this probably fanciful tale, as one of a group of minors being approached by an adult, who then attempted to start a physical altercation. Joran acted in self-defense, according to the witness.

I'm not the one who's being silly.
 
SANDER GOTTENBOS - WITNESS STATEMENT - 06/16/05
On your question if I was with Joran in the carnivals season when there was an incident, I will explain to you the following: Yes I was with him on that day. On that day there was a parade in Oranjestad. We stood on the bridge at the Wilhelmina Park. That moment a druggie came to us. Joran had given him . The druggie had thrown it on the ground and started annoying us. Joran had called the police force that stood near. The police force had removed the druggie. After a while the druggie returned and started annoying us. He had grabbed Satish at its hand and wanted with him fight. At that moment Joran grabbed him and threw him off the bridge into the water.

http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/2008/01/you-be-judge.html

most of them police statements. Don't be put off by the blog, because all the items are referenced either to formal police statements or media.

I felt I had to put that back up since the statement has now been called a 'fanciful tale'
 
Since JVS has a problem with women, it will be very interesting to see how he controls
himself with a woman lawyer, DA, judge.
I do wonder if in the audience if Stephany's and Natalee's mom's will attend.
And his reaction to them and his own mother.


I don't think Stephany's mom will attend the trial. She has taken this loss of her only daughter so badly. I am very interested in how she is and hope that she finds strength after losing her precious Stephany.
 
The problem with Joran's varying accounts is that people pick and choose which parts of them to believe. If he really is a habitual liar, then nothing he has said about the Holloway case can be relied upon as being true. Still, this doesn't stop those who desperately want him punished from selecting the parts that suit their needs.

Analyzing the stories Joran told for money is fruitless. Most people accept the "he threw her body in the ocean" story because it's the one Beth has long promoted.

It amazes me that people find a way to make Joran look deranged, no matter what the situation. How old was Joran when this event supposedly took place? 16? 15? Satish would not have been much older, and still probably a minor. So, we have here an adult with some kind of issues, who approaches three minors and tries to pick a fight with one. Joran defends his friend and "throws him" off a bridge, whatever that really meant. We don't know how high the bridge was, and I'm guessing it was low enough so that this guy wasn't even injured by landing in the water.

Originally Posted by Unreals Snipped
If you understood American law, at least, you would know that no minor would be charged for assault in such a situation.
But then again, those who believe Joran is a serial killer will fit these incidents from the past into their fimly established image of him

Merged posts, snipped.

Now you're really being silly. EVERY minor would be charged with assault in that situation. Every last one of them. You want some case law to back that up? Let me know what state your in, and I'll pull several thousand juvenile, AND juvenile charged as adult, cases off of Westlaw or LexisNexis just from your state.

Skewed again: And, Joran's "image" in the minds of others is not a result of others' conjuring an image in a vacuum, it is the image HE firmly established of himself.

Joran is depicted, in this probably fanciful tale, as one of a group of minors being approached by an adult, who then attempted to start a physical altercation. Joran acted in self-defense, according to the witness.
I'm not the one who's being silly.


Seems a lot of people like to pick and choose Unreals, eh?

I think Joran did many things just for the sake of getting attention ......what do you think?
 
I don't think Stephany's mom will attend the trial. She has taken this loss of her only daughter so badly. I am very interested in how she is and hope that she finds strength after losing her precious Stephany.

I've wonder too about her and how she is doing. I'm sure she has family and many friends who are surrounding her now with love and concern. I know in the US we would expect the mother to be there, but not sure here, since it is a different culture. I hope if she does decide, that she is given strength. I hope she may find comfort in the fact that there are many people behind her and the family for the tragedy they are having to endure.
 
IF this incident ever happened, Joran and his friends were minors. The guy, who is depicted as the aggressor, was an adult. HE would have been charged with assault. An adult cannot go around attempting to start physical altercations with minors.

No one here would look at this the same way if Joran wasn't involved.

A minor can be charged with assault......unless JVDS was actually fending off blows from the adult JVDS would be the one who would be physically assaulting the other
 
Re: The man in the striped green shirt at the poker table with Joran and Stephany on May 30.

I found this post from Kamille on June 16, saying that Erick Cabrero was in the casino on May 30. This link contains his picture...looks like he could be the striped green shirt guy....they both have long sideburns and are kind of stocky.

I'm certain he must have been interrogated by now..Perhaps his statement hasn't been released because it contains some key information...IMO

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Joran Van der Sloot Confesses to Murdering Stephany Flores Ramirez #8

Thanks for the link and info, I must have missed that page. Sure would like to hear what he had to say and what time he was there. I'll check again, but it seems he is quite stocky for the man in green. He looked more the size of EG. EG sure is a mystery man....in my book anyway. He didn't want his face shown in any media it looked like. Maybe his wife didn't know he was at the casinos? When I first saw the video of him getting into the cab, I thought it was Mr. Flores.
 
The problem with Joran's varying accounts is that people pick and choose which parts of them to believe. If he really is a habitual liar, then nothing he has said about the Holloway case can be relied upon as being true. Still, this doesn't stop those who desperately want him punished from selecting the parts that suit their needs.

Analyzing the stories Joran told for money is fruitless. Most people accept the "he threw her body in the ocean" story because it's the one Beth has long promoted.

The problem is that there is "one" truth. If Joran had nothing to do with her disappearance then the truth would be his friend. So to say that people believe what they want to believe is odd. There should only be one thing to believe and all of Joran's stories have very little to do with the believable. When somebody is all over the map with the "truth" then they are trying to hide something. Some of Joran's stories contain a grain of truth so he can explain certain aspects of the facts and the rest, of his numerous stories, can be called horse hockey. So people are left to parse his stories and try to dig at the truth. What people believe is what makes sense from the known facts. JMO

He admitted, on film, that he was with her when she died. I believe he said something to the effect of "Why does this always happen to me?" when she died in front of him. He extorted money from BH, he murdered a girl in Peru and he tried to get involved in human trafficking. Why you feel the need to stand up for him is beyond me.

OT, but do you think OJ Simpson is innocent of the two murders he was acquitted of? He told a lot of different stories too.
 
Here's another photo of Erick I just found on a blogger's website. It's dated June 4, so I believe it was taken during the Lima tournament.

TY. Now this does look more like Mr. Green Shirt. This is starting to drive me batty...(more ;)

Dumb question: What and why the little thingys in his ears?
 
It amazes me that people find a way to make Joran look deranged, no matter what the situation. How old was Joran when this event supposedly took place? 16? 15? Satish would not have been much older, and still probably a minor. So, we have here an adult with some kind of issues, who approaches three minors and tries to pick a fight with one. Joran defends his friend and "throws him" off a bridge, whatever that really meant. We don't know how high the bridge was, and I'm guessing it was low enough so that this guy wasn't even injured by landing in the water.

If you understood American law, at least, you would know that no minor would be charged for assault in such a situation. An adult attempted to initiate a fight with his fellow underaged friend, and he defended him. Of course, I'm assuming for hypothetical argument's sake that this incident ever happened. I have strong doubts that it did. However, my only point was that the witness who testified to it was clearly trying to report something that he felt would make Joran look bad, but his own words really paint Joran out in a pretty positive light.

As for Joran's stories, who knows? Joran is obviously motivated by money, and each time he gave varying accounts of what happened to Natalee, he was paid to do so. He was a 17 year old kid who was accused of a crime he knew he didn't commit, and I'm sure he (and his family) couldn't help but be affected by the way he was targeted exclusively by Beth and company. I don't think he was trying to be insensitive towards Natalee, but if you believe, as I do, that Joran had nothing to do with her disappearance, you should be able to understand why he developed the attitude he did towards her mother, who loathed him and spared no opportunity to bash him and his father on American television.

As attorney Les Levine described it on JVM's show last week, there is a real lynch mob mentality in both America and Peru towards Joran. He has been so thoroughly demonized by the media, that there is no way he could ever receive a fair trial in either country.

Assuming that he can't get a fair trial, what should authorities do with him...............set him free????????
 
The problem with Joran's varying accounts is that people pick and choose which parts of them to believe. If he really is a habitual liar, then nothing he has said about the Holloway case can be relied upon as being true. Still, this doesn't stop those who desperately want him punished from selecting the parts that suit their needs.

Analyzing the stories Joran told for money is fruitless. Most people accept the "he threw her body in the ocean" story because it's the one Beth has long promoted.

with all due respect - basing a theory only on what jvds has said in my opinion is like stepping in quicksand and suggesting that jvds is being wronged in some way because people have chosen to believe the "wrong" lies that he has spewed... that sounds like blaming the people who believed his lies - like they should have known better, or chose to believe a different lie that he has spread and all the while jvds is blameless...its not his fault if someone chose to believe him. nope - that is backwards - blame the victim mentality. i think people have the correct ideas about jvds and there is no one to blame for that other than jvds himself. he is the one that has told all of the lies and most of them he has told on camera, fair and square...no one framed him or maligned him to get on camera and start telling LIES. now, i dont know why a person would lie about killing or disposing of a person if in fact they did NOT...but it appears that jvds ENJOYS doing it just for funzies of HURTING OTHER PEOPLE...and he likes it even better if he can get paid for it with money, attention or just for overall notoriety. jvds has made his decisions and he has toyed with peoples emotions - STRONG emotions. to toy with a family about whether or not you killed their daughter and IF you are ever going to tell them where her body is is a BIG deal, whether he knows where she is or not has not much to do with it. hes lucky he is still breathing today... now, unfortunately for him it looks as if the tables have been turned and not in his favor. i dont feel much empathy for him. sorry. i dont want to see anything bad happen to anyone...but in this case i think he has invited a lot of BAD things to his very own door step. what is done is done - no matter which of jvds's lies you might want to believe in. moo
 
Unreals - I would like to ask you a question. Other than the book you are writing, do you have some connection to the Van der Sloot family? Your protestations of Joran's innocence are, quite frankly, so fantastical as to be completely unrelated to reality. So, again, what connection do you have with this family that you are trying to protect Joran?
 
Unreals - I would like to ask you a question. Other than the book you are writing, do you have some connection to the Van der Sloot family? Your protestations of Joran's innocence are, quite frankly, so fantastical as to be completely unrelated to reality. So, again, what connection do you have with this family that you are trying to protect Joran?


I would like to add to your question if I may. Unreals do you also have a connection to Renee Gielian, Julia Renfroe, Dan Young , Kelly Castillo or Jan Brennan because many of the things you claim seems to come right out of their playbook and they are directly connected to the Van der Sloot family putting out lies and distortions on their behalf.
 
Just jumping in here..but if Joran wants to save his skin he is going to have to tell the truth about natalee. They won't even consider extradition until he has told them, and they find her body. And he would want to do that soon. IMO
 
And if her body isn't retrievable because she was disposed off at sea he better come up with some other concrete evidence because they won't believe it's true, based on all his lies in the past. This situation is 100% his own making and the people who thought they were doing him a favor by protecting him will have to find a way to live with themselves.
 
in regard to this idea of jvds being a "hero" defending his friends by tossing somebody off a bridge... no one is ALL bad, im sure jvds has done something good somewhere in his life - i dont think throwing somebody off a bridge is a heroic thing btw, but even if by some stretch of the imagination jvds was defending his friends it doesnt mean that he isnt still the liar that he has proven time and again that he is or that just because he is capable of doing something good that that in and of its self equals that he isnt a murderer, liar & extortionist... the thing that has always disturbed me about him is that he seemed to take pleasure in causing emotional suffering to nh's family... caused them to suffer because he could see that they loved their daughter and he wanted them to suffer for it. this is jmho . its not like he hurt them indirectly while he was attempting to skirt a murder rap - he intentionally and DIRECTLY engaged them in some kind of sadistic mental/emotional warfare that could have had no other result than destroy them... and then after five years of that he decided it would be even better to get them to pay him for this destruction. just wow. im not sure what level of bad karma this would activate for jvds ... it has crossed my mind many times that i think that jvds would have attempted to do this same sick process with sf family if he could have just gotten her body out of the hotel room. its obvious that her family loved her very much and is financially wealthy... the perfect combo for jvds. im not suggesting that that was his motive - as i dont think it was the motive for nh either. but for him just an added perk. if anyone could show ANY evidence that jvds isnt responsible for nh or sf i would be interested in seeing it. i dont like to believe that there are people like i have described above wandering the earth... but after five years of the nh case and no one has shown that there could have been anyone else that could have done this i have no other choice than to believe that it truly was jvds who is responsible.
 
Unreals - I would like to ask you a question. Other than the book you are writing, do you have some connection to the Van der Sloot family? Your protestations of Joran's innocence are, quite frankly, so fantastical as to be completely unrelated to reality. So, again, what connection do you have with this family that you are trying to protect Joran?

No, I have no connection to Joran or his family. I've never met or communicated with any of them.

I can only speak for myself, but I came to believe in Joran's innocence in the Holloway case by analysis of the evidence. Joran's testimony actually doesn't play much of a role in my thinking at all. I have stated my belief that he is a habitual liar. However, I think his chronic lying really went into overdrive a few years ago, when he first realized he could profit from giving sensationalist accounts of what happened to Natalee.

Was he a nice guy for doing that? Of course not. Did he display little or no empathy for Natalee and her family as he told his stories? Absolutely. You won't find me condoning his behavior. However, like the Aruban authorities, I recognized immediately that each of his stories was a wild yarn, told only for the purpose of getting paid. I think the reason he could confidently tell these tales-two of which were terribly self-incriminating-is because he knows that he didn't cause Natalee to disappear, and has nothing to fear even if he gives them yet another location for her body.

I am not here to say that Joran is a nice guy, an upstanding citizen or even that he's mentally balanced at this point. I really don't know that he is, although I wouldn't perform an amateur psychoanalysis on him, like all the unprofessional "experts" feel comfortable in doing on t.v. He clearly has at least a powerful gambling addiction, and a lack of principles where money is concerned. How far would he go for money? I don't really know, but I don't think there is any evidence that someone would have paid him to kill either Natalee or Stephany.

Looking at the whole picture, and factoring the Natalee Holloway case into it, I find the entire sequence of events in Peru to be suspicious. I've explained the various points of contention in several posts here. Ultimately, I don't think Joran will live to stand trial. If he does go to trial, there is no question that he will be convicted. Thus, for those of us who don't believe he is a murderer, we can only try to make our points in public- on forums like this, and hopefully eventually in a book.

Could I be wrong about Joran? Sure. It would really disappoint me to find out he's actually guilty of murder, because I've devoted a lot of time and effort into researching the Holloway case, and to defending him on that and against the charges in Peru, on this and other forums. No one likes to admit they're wrong, when they've expended such energy defending a view they're completely confident in- as I am about this.

I have no vested interest in Joran being innocent, except perhaps that his guilt would necessarily change the entire tone of my book (which I might very well abandon in that case, out of disillusionment). I care strongly about civil liberties, and can't stand to think that someone is being unjustly accused, and then unjustly punished, for something they didn't do.
 
in regard to this idea of jvds being a "hero" defending his friends by tossing somebody off a bridge... no one is ALL bad, im sure jvds has done something good somewhere in his life - i dont think throwing somebody off a bridge is a heroic thing btw, but even if by some stretch of the imagination jvds was defending his friends it doesnt mean that he isnt still the liar that he has proven time and again that he is or that just because he is capable of doing something good that that in and of its self equals that he isnt a murderer, liar & extortionist... the thing that has always disturbed me about him is that he seemed to take pleasure in causing emotional suffering to nh's family... caused them to suffer because he could see that they loved their daughter and he wanted them to suffer for it. this is jmho . its not like he hurt them indirectly while he was attempting to skirt a murder rap - he intentionally and DIRECTLY engaged them in some kind of sadistic mental/emotional warfare that could could have had no other result than destroy them... and then after five years of that he decided it would be even better to get them to pay him for this destruction. just wow. im not sure what level of bad karma this would activate for jvds ... it has crossed my mind many times that i think that jvds would have attempted to do this same sick process with sf family if he could have just gotten her body out of the hotel room. its obvious that her family loved her very much and was financially wealthy... the perfect combo for jvds. im not suggesting that was his motive - as i dont think it was the motive for nh either. but for him just an added perk. if anyone could show ANY evidence that jvds isnt responsible for nh or sf i would be interested in seeing it. i dont like to believe that there are people like i have described above wandering the earth... but after five years of the nh case and no one has shown that there could have been anyone else that could have done this i have no other choice than to believe that it truly was jvds who is responsible.

Look, I've never believed that he did push anyone off a bridge. My point was that the witness who testified to this made it appear that Joran was something of a hero, imho. I don't approve of people being pushed off bridges, either. However, the way this guy described things, there was an adult with some problems who confronted three minors and tried to start a fight with one. In my view, he was the bad guy in this scenario.
 
You know you wouldn't have to abandon the book .. Everyone loves a final twist. And his story is definitely worth exploring for various reasons. He's in big trouble in Peru .. I'm not exactly thrilled with the idea of anyone being in that position to be honest.
 
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