Conrad Murray trial -Day eleven.

My guy's in St. Louis, make room for me to drool over this witness!

Give it up Flannagan, you are getting nowhere! Murray gave the best case scenario to LE. He still flunked MD 101. What if he ever told the truth? Even worse... I believe MJ was dead when he found him.


BBM - ITA - Without a doubt, C-Moon. I just feel it. I think he gave MJ just a little too much propofol -- and I'm just not so sure about the "sleepless night" that CM went on & on about -- not buying it. I remember as well, what both the EMT's said about little MJ when each one observed his body. One of them said he thought he'd been dead for an hour or more, IIRC.
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Well I would be if that was me on the witness stand (laughing), but I would have probably pulled out the sarcasm long before this.


Yep -- I wonder how many times this witness has wanted to ask, "Are you serious?" or "Is that a serious question, Sir?" ?

Seems to be a fine, intelligent and just plain nice guy. And yes, probably ashamed and horrified that CM is a cardiologist.

And another thang: Did you notice, early in his testimony, how quickly he answered the prosecutor that of course (not his words), all of the docs in his practice are indeed board certified? Well, yeah. It's elementary, my dear Watson.

Hmmmmpppffff.
 
Wondering just where the Defense team would find an expert to testify that Dr. Murray did no harm?

You'd be surprised. There are *advertiser censored* in every profession, and doctors are no exceptions. And, if we can take Chernoff at his word, they have a guy named White, who is supposed to be the 'father of propofol' who's going to say that Murray did no wrong. Now, I find it difficult that Dr. White will stand up well on cross-examination, especially given the lack of monitoring equipment, notes, etc. but that's apparently who the defense is relying upon to save the day.
 
With each day of testimony I grow more and more disgusted that the harshest sentence this @#%$^# can receive is only four years. :furious:
 
I think it was CM who said that MJ's veins were hard to find. Or I heard it wrong.

Is putting an IV line in a vein below the knee a "normal" placement? I know nothing, but it seems odd to me. TIA.
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Was it mentioned why Conrad Murray is/was not Board Certified?

Not that I've heard, peace. I'd sure like to know. Did he just let it lapse, or was it a bit more problematic than that?

IIRC, he had a certification that ran from 1998 to 2008. Don't know where the cert. was issued/awarded, but it was not recert. or renewed or whatever the term is. One of our posters showed it from a site here on WS.
 
He is quadruple board certified in all his specialties.

Wow, what a guy. The prosecution is serving up two aces today, huh folks??

Impressive, polite, and sharp. Big, big pins to puncture CMs bubble.
 
Sleep Medicine Care Extreme Deviations witness stated in board review report:

1. At no time did Dr. Murray provide or have a diagnostic evaluation of MJ's insomnia performed (now saying why that is so important to determine the reason for the insomnia - a lot is involved in that from the sounds of it). There are different types of insomnia and prosecution has asked him to briefly explain the different types. If underlying condition is found, that is treated first and then the insomnia is looked at to see if it improved. witness: this is an extreme deviation to treating insomnia (witness noted in his report that Dr. Murray states MJ was seeing other drs and he noticed IV marks on him but got no further information on this. Witness says Murray should have gotten the information on that and if he didn't, then treatment should have been refused. Unethical to treat him otherwise when ignoring the patient's past and instead just moving to these extreme sedation methods. Talked a lot about primary and secondary causes of insomnia.
2. no detailed pharmaceutical history (over the counter, RX, illicit, etc. - everything)
3. no detailed physical exam/history
4. no lab testing to rule out basic conditions as the cause of sleep problems

Pharmacological approach to treating insomnia.

Witness: 8 agents approved by FDA. Some are in the benzodazopiens and some are not. (okay he is confusing me with the benzo... non benzo...lingo but there's a difference and one is addictive others are not)

P: as far as benzodiaz... what are those treatments approved by the FDA for insomnia
w: (lots of pams...many i didn't recognize from prior testimony)
p: benzodiaz that are approved by FDA they are all in oral, not IV
w: yes
p: you are aware of the drugs Dr. M was giving MJ (lists them)
w: yes
p: IV lirizapam long term management care for insomnia
w: no, that is not appropriate long term management
p: asking about oral forms for long term care
w: not really, highly addictive drug no longer than 3 to 4 weeks

p: using the combination or singly using any of the drugs Dr. M was treating MJ was classified as you as extreme deviation of care for insomnia
w: yes
p: and the use of propofol
w: utterly has no management for insomnia, regardless of setting has no use for insomnia.
p: why did you make the statement that use of propofol for insomnia like in this case, inconceivable and unethical, why is that
w: never even fathom doing, no reason to use this drug for insomnia
p: (oh wow) you state that Dr. M caused MJ's death
w: that is correct

p read long statement included in report that was terribly damning to Dr.M. and ended with that Dr. M caused MJ's death.

Now talking about how these drugs were left in MJs reach and that is gross negligence and a very foreseeable complication.

Bold is mine-

Benzo's are your Xanax, Klonopin, Ativan, Valium, Restoril, Halcion etc. Non-benzo's (Sonata, Ambien, Lunesta etc) are drugs that are very similar in effect, but not in chemical make-up, to Benzo's.

What the doc was saying is that Lorazepam (Ativan) is not appropriate for long term use of insomnia because it's highly addictive.
 
Not that I've heard, peace. I'd sure like to know. Did he just let it lapse, or was it a bit more problematic than that?

IIRC, he had a certification that ran from 1998 to 2008. Don't know where the cert. was issued/awarded, but it was not recert. or renewed or whatever the term is. One of our posters showed it from a site here on WS.

I saw Beth Karas say yesterday (either on HLN or InSessions - can't remember which one as she shows up on both shows) that there was a book recovered in the investigation that was a study book on passing the exam to be board certified cardiologist. She surmised that book suggested he was studying to take the exam. Nothing was said about whether he previously was certified or not but I'm pretty sure once you let a certification or license lapse for a period of time, you have to start all over to get your credentials back. If Dr. M did let his certifications lapse, that was just pure laziness on his part. IMO

I can't remember for sure where she said it was recovered but I am pretty sure she said it was in the articles recovered from the bedroom 2 suite area.
 
Wondering just where the Defense team would find an expert to testify that Dr. Murray did no harm?

I have visions of someone like the grief lady doctor showing up (from the Anthony trial)! Behind every defense attorney is some whack-a-doodle "expert".

:great:
 
Is putting an IV line in a vein below the knee a "normal" placement? I know nothing, but it seems odd to me. TIA.
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I'm a nurse and it seems an odd place for me, too.

However, I've been in psych for a long time and our patients don't get IVs....
if needed, they go to a medical unit or the gen hosp setting.

So, I may be the wrong person answering this.
 
I AGREE. And what the heck was going on in his clinics. He had no real nurses working with the heart patients. That one witness was a VOLUNTEER. She worked full time as a volunteer for a few years? I did not understand that. maybe her grandmother got free treatments from the doctor for that.??

I've had the same thoughts about his "nurses" in his clinics. Perhaps that was by design on his part. Do not hire qualified people for his clinics and therefore no one was experienced/trained/knowledgeable (etc.) enough to know that he was running a very sub-par and questionable practice. IMO
 
I've had the same thoughts about his "nurses" in his clinics. Perhaps that was by design on his part. Do not hire qualified people for his clinics and therefore no one was experienced/trained/knowledgeable (etc.) enough to know that he was running a very sub-par and questionable practice. IMO

I agree and add lower pay and benefits. Most certainly no one to whistle blow though.
 
When DH was dying they couldn't find a pulse even with an infant pulse/ox on his earlobe. But I could still feel his heart beat with my head on his chest. I could hear it faintly too. Maybe someone else knows why.

The rapid heartbeat means the heart is working to get oxygen to the lungs and the brain, but the blood has stopped circulating, so even though you can't feel a pulse, the heart is still beating, just not hard enough to keep the blood circulating.
 
I AGREE. And what the heck was going on in his clinics. He had no real nurses working with the heart patients. That one witness was a VOLUNTEER. She worked full time as a volunteer for a few years? I did not understand that. maybe her grandmother got free treatments from the doctor for that.??

I do find Murray to be a master manipulator. Very much a user. Like you said the woman who testified said she volunteered to work in his office. So how many of the three women were even paid? Any? I wonder.

I think he pours on the 'pretty words' when it benefits HIM.

I have no doubt when he was in LV he made sure to come across as the big successful doctor man. That would give him what he wanted. There he lived in a million dollar home that he was about to lose but the appearance of success is very important to Murray but not really being successful. I think Murray is quite lazy. However in his TX office he came across to his patients that he was suffering along with them because he made no money there. It was a mind game and I think he used it often on vulnerable people.

So he will sit there and wallow in his self pity that he really is the victim here. That is what all narcissist do. It has to be someone else's fault and never ever their own.

IMO
 

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