Girl with dark long hair and fur coat.

Filly said:

It's like the width between her nose and top lip is not the same.

Also tough is the eyebrows. Rose Cole looked like she plucked her eyebrows overboard on the outside closest to the nose. You know what I mean? Then again eyebrows grow in.

Definately seeing the scar now on our girl's left top of her eye closer to her brow.

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I don't know if I am doing everything right with the picture I want to attach... This is my first post here. in case it didn't work out, I compared pictures of Rose Cole being a very little girl and the one which was shown here already with the striped shirt. To me this girl looks very much like Rose Cole. Especially the eyebrows and the shape of the eyes and especially the shape of the "fleshy" eyelids. The lips as well. On the Alcala picture she doesn't smile and regarding that she has a thin upperlip and this could get even get thinner when smiling.

What do you think?

German Girl 1966 said:

I don't know if I am doing everything right with the picture I want to attach... This is my first post here. in case it didn't work out, I compared pictures of Rose Cole being a very little girl and the one which was shown here already with the striped shirt. To me this girl looks very much like Rose Cole. Especially the eyebrows and the shape of the eyes and especially the shape of the "fleshy" eyelids. The lips as well. On the Alcala picture she doesn't smile and regarding that she has a thin upperlip and this could get even get thinner when smiling.

What do you think?

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Welcome German Girl, I don't think it worked out the picture attachment. That's O.K. though. Ya know you are right about the fleshy part of the eyelids even with the two original pictures of Rose vs our dear girl here.

I'm no good with comparing lips. Plus your eyes are the same from birth on, right? Especially the eyelids part to me. I know from nothing, but I was huge with doing great eyeshadows back in my day. Contouring and all. My friends would ask me to put theirs on just like it. Well, it's the depth of the eyelid and how much space between that and your brows which make it work.

If that makes sense? Another words theirs never came out looking like mine. I had a friend who had the most gorgeous eyes. She looked like a young Faye Dunaway. After I got done with her hardly there lids she looked plain awful. So I see what you mean.

Found a color photo of Rose (attached below for comparison) and the eye color doesnt match. The lips also dont match (the arch at the top of the upper lip and the fullness of the bottom) and Rose has freckles and a tiny mole about an inch from her nose (on our left).

Filly said:

When I saw this photograph blown up I physically got sick. Out of all these photgraphs this girl looks the most terrified.

I was wondering if it isn't that ugly rug he had that she has draped around her? It's obvious something was done to her mouth and nose. Looks like even he grabbed her face down by her mouth. Kind of looks like a thumb mark bruise is starting.

I know that isn't helping identify this poor girl, but I just feel like I want to help her so bad.

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The marks on her face remind me of after waxing, and with that dark complexion, dark brows--- upper lip/ chin waxing might not be unreasonable to think of.

I'm new to the forum, so I apologize if this has already been noted - but note the scar above her left eye? Could be an identifying mark.

Could this be Ellen Hover that was found murdered?

plait said:

Could this be Ellen Hover that was found murdered?

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Could be.

WildHuncher said:

Could be.

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The upper lip area looks off to me & the UID seems to have much lighter eyes.

It might be just me, but I think that nothing about these photos look alike except for maybe the hair.

norest4thewicked said:

It might be just me, but I think that nothing about these photos look alike except for maybe the hair.

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Yeah, the skin tone and facial features are really different. The hairline looks different to me too.

Not sure what to think myself, but what about this one?



Singer Girl is in what we think is Alcala's New York apartment. Her nose seems a good match to the UID, but her eyes are closed and her features are contorted in a way that makes cheekbones and jawlines tough to compare. She has very similar hair. Eyebrows, moles and blemishes don't quite work.

I initially thought maybe Singer and Hover were the same, too, but Alcala probably wouldn't have had that apartment when Hover was murdered, late 70s. He was in NY visiting relatives. This would mean Singer and Hover can't be the same (unless he first met her in the early 70s when she would have been 17) and only one of them can be Fur Coat, not that either has to be.

It's easier to find instances of center-parted, long, gleaming, silky, straight dark hair on women with longish faces than I at first supposed.

Edit: Regarding that being Hover at 17, it would answer something I wondered at earlier. Her last datebook entry was for "John Berger." That's an alias Alcala had used in his first trip back East in the early 70s, before he was caught for the Tali S. attack. Why re-use a blown alias unless you meet someone who knew you from back when you were using it before?

Edit 2: Concerning the above, what the heck!

I had not put these two together before but after looking at it I noticed two things. The nose seems a match and the hair. This hair color (same as my own) is not that common. If you look at both pictures and study the hair further their is a piece that is similiar. You got the part and then their is a piece that is kinda curled.

I think this girl in the fur was kidnapped, bound, gaged, untied, photographed, victimized, and killed within hours of her capture. The other person singing seems as if he/she was lured to Alcala's apartment under the guse of just hanging out listening to music, and getting stoned.

Singing girl has a much higher forehead than the other girl. Also, her eyebrows start from the inner eye narrow and get larger as they go across. Just the opposite for the other girl.

I grew up in the 70's and if you look at the vast majority of girls from this time, you will find that this was the style...to wear your hair long and parted down the middle. I wish I could find my senior picture...

Remember Ted Bundy? He seemed to favor girls with long dark hair parted down the middle. It was later pointed out that there were girls who he killed that didn't have this appearance, but I think that a lot of this was because the majority of girls had their hair like this in the 70's.

norest4thewicked said:

Singing girl has a much higher forehead than the other girl. Also, her eyebrows start from the inner eye narrow and get larger as they go across. Just the opposite for the other girl.

I grew up in the 70's and if you look at the vast majority of girls from this time, you will find that this was the style...to wear your hair long and parted down the middle. I wish I could find my senior picture...

Remember Ted Bundy? He seemed to favor girls with long dark hair parted down the middle. It was later pointed out that there were girls who he killed that didn't have this appearance, but I think that a lot of this was because the majority of girls had their hair like this in the 70's.

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This particular wild hunch is pretty far out there, yes. Singer is the oddest one out of the three, the worst match with either of the others. It's a striking coincidence, though, that Alcala got pictures of three such similar women in a decade which included a lot of prison time.

I'm still intrigued by the idea of Singer being Ellen Hover at 17 in 1971 in Alcala's New York apartment, an heiress teenager at the height of the Sixties (1971 WAS the height of the 60s) and perhaps a bit of a hippie. She might be trimming her eyebrows a bit differently (or not trimming them at all). The pattern of blemishes would be different. Even some of the ratios of her facial bones could change a bit.

Not everyone is seeing what I'm seeing on the side-by-sides posted earlier between Hover at 23 and Fur Coat (at whatever age). That somewhat surprised me given the hair, nose, and cheekbones but I agree with what people are saying about eyes and skin tones. Singer matches even worse but I'd still say she has some chance of being a younger version of Hover or Fur Coat or both.

Just running that one up the flag pole to see who salutes. Call it a long shot.

Ellen Hover is pretty much thought to have been murdered by Alcala. That's the general thought anyway to those familiar with this case. The Hover family was a powerful family then and still is. If this photo WAS Ellen Hover, why in the world would it have been released with the rest of the anonymous photos? That wouldn't have made any sense at all considering that Hover had been dead for years before these photos were given to LE. And, 30 some years passed between the time LE got these photos and the time we as the public saw them.

I'm not saying that I think this girl is alive, because I think she was one of the ones photographed during her torture and murder. I read recently that 6 families had come forward since the photos were released, to report that their loved ones were in the photos and had been missing for many years. So, we know that at least 6 of these people were probably murdered by Alcala. But, this girl just can't be Hover, in my opinion.

This girl is just haunting. I've never seen a picture that more clearly illustrated the emotion of terror.

Having said that I don't believe either of the two pics are a match. The first one has curlier hair, dark brown eyes and a different skin tone. The second one has thin lips and a different shape to her face. But they're close.

I hope this poor girl is one day identified.

Maybe too far fetched, BUTcould this person be just a long hair male. The eyebrows look freshly plucked. Hair looks freshly brushed. Perhaps the beard and mustache was freshly removed, which accounts for the redness. Then a woman's coat was draped over him.

norest4thewicked said:

Ellen Hover is pretty much thought to have been murdered by Alcala. That's the general thought anyway to those familiar with this case. The Hover family was a powerful family then and still is. If this photo WAS Ellen Hover, why in the world would it have been released with the rest of the anonymous photos? That wouldn't have made any sense at all considering that Hover had been dead for years before these photos were given to LE. And, 30 some years passed between the time LE got these photos and the time we as the public saw them.

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I remember Googling for Hover's pictures in probably April of last year and getting nothing. Some have turned up since, mostly on the OC Register site. I suspect not only did the Huntington Beach PD not have good pictures of Hover, but they didn't have anything for 1971 New York victim Cornelia Crilley. I think Orange Chair Blonde might be Crilley and posted a side-by-side on that thread. It has so far evaded comment.

There's still only one picture of Crilley on the web and it's really bad. Wish some better ones would become available.

So the answer would be, they may have missed the East Coast victims in the collection. By most reports there are about 1000 pictures, of which they have released over 200. They're only human. They can miss things too.

I will comment about Crilley and the fact that, again, she can't be the blonde in the orange chair. Crilley's boyfriend (Leon Borstein) at the time of her murder was then Brooklyn Assistant District Attorney. He then was chief special prosecutor for New York City and since is retired. I would imagine that his interest in this case would be very high since he was at first suspected in the murder of Crilley. I would imagine also that he has seen the 200+ photos released (if not all 2000 of them) and would have identified this girl as Crilley if it was her. Just because there is a suitcase next to the girl in the chair doesn't mean that we should jump to the conclusion that this woman is a stewardess as Crilley was. Perhaps they are Alcala's suitcases or maybe neither of theirs.

There are photos of east coast photos in the collection we saw...assuming that the two living areas that we have seen where he has multiple peoples photos, are his apartment in California and the other one in NY.

I agree with you that there are not a lot of photos on the web of Crilley or Hover, but their really doesn't need to be to "match" these two with Alcala's photos since their families and friends would certainly be able to recognize them in the photos and you can bet that if you or I were family members of someone that we felt killed our loved one, we would be watching every word said about Alcala. It is my understanding that his DNA was matched to both women.

It's hard in sleuthing not to try to fit ones own personal thoughts, fantasies, wild ideas, whatever it is that we all call our speculations into what we share. But, often times we find that too many wild hypotheses just serves to muddy the water even more. I know that WS is here for us to share our thoughts, but I just think that we can get caught up on one idea (especially if we've thought of it) and don't keep an open mind about other possibilities...ones that could truly be helpful.

I'm not directing this at you...just a general statement for all of us to remember to keep our minds free to ideas. When something is laid to rest, as the Crilley and Hover cases are (in terms of the fact that they are deceased, and photos of them, even if they were in Alcala's stash (which I would find extremely unlikely), would have been identified by now.

Hopefully this makes sense...it's late!