trains

As most of you know, James Kolar suggests toy train track with the center pin removed as the source of the "stun gun" marks. In the book it is called O gauge, but what is pictured is IMO actually Lionel O27 gauge. Not really an issue because the distance between the pins would be similar. I can certainly attest to the fact that the pins do come out with normal use.
However what the train talk really reminds me of is the fact that many O and O27 steam engines have a curvature to the roof of the cab. So looking at it from behind, there is often a curved roof protruding to the rear. Also, these die cast locomotives can have considerable heft, imo enough to cause the damage to JB's skull. There are however two issues - 1. I'm not sure that there was a model with a cab as narrow as 1 3/4", without going down to a smaller gauge, where the heft and potential for damage drop considerably, and 2. The damage to the skull appears concentric to me, and I can't say how the toy engine as the bludgeon could provide that.
So, the question for me becomes, were the toy trains and accessories cataloged with any specificity? I would suspect that if a locomotive was the weapon, and provided that the R's knew it was the weapon, then it likely went the way of the tape, rope, and practice notes. But this stuff often comes in sets, so any info of what pieces were there could be helpful.

I think there are lists of items confiscated by LE, but man alive, a car of a train would be awfully easy to hide in a golf bag. This would also make sense, go along with, the marks being from a piece of train track. Great idea!

Would Burke have been strong enough to wield enough power/force, to cause an injury like that with a train car? He was taller, stronger and most likely angry/experiencing an adrenaline rush, but I think I still favor the bat.

wengr said:

As most of you know, James Kolar suggests toy train track with the center pin removed as the source of the "stun gun" marks. In the book it is called O gauge, but what is pictured is IMO actually Lionel O27 gauge. Not really an issue because the distance between the pins would be similar. I can certainly attest to the fact that the pins do come out with normal use.
However what the train talk really reminds me of is the fact that many O and O27 steam engines have a curvature to the roof of the cab. So looking at it from behind, there is often a curved roof protruding to the rear. Also, these die cast locomotives can have considerable heft, imo enough to cause the damage to JB's skull. There are however two issues - 1. I'm not sure that there was a model with a cab as narrow as 1 3/4", without going down to a smaller gauge, where the heft and potential for damage drop considerably, and 2. The damage to the skull appears concentric to me, and I can't say how the toy engine as the bludgeon could provide that.
So, the question for me becomes, were the toy trains and accessories cataloged with any specificity? I would suspect that if a locomotive was the weapon, and provided that the R's knew it was the weapon, then it likely went the way of the tape, rope, and practice notes. But this stuff often comes in sets, so any info of what pieces were there could be helpful.

Click to expand...

wengr,
The only reference to "train" is that, on returning from the White's, JR and BR played with a train set or something in the "Train Room"?

If the marks were indeed caused by the train track, then this adds something different to the mix. Since it might put JonBenet down in the basement prior to her being assaulted?

So why would anyone whack JonBenet with a train specific to the train-room?

It seems divorced from her initial assault and asphyxiation?


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SunnieRN said:

I think there are lists of items confiscated by LE, but man alive, a car of a train would be awfully easy to hide in a golf bag. This would also make sense, go along with, the marks being from a piece of train track. Great idea!

Would Burke have been strong enough to wield enough power/force, to cause an injury like that with a train car? He was taller, stronger and most likely angry/experiencing an adrenaline rush, but I think I still favor the bat.

Click to expand...

Hello SunnieRN. While I'm just thinking out loud here in hopes of gathering some other opinions, I'm thinking it would have to be steam locomotive, and not just any car. A Lionel O27 locomotive is often made from diecast metal and houses a heavy electric motor. Personally I have no doubt that it is possible for a 10yo to accomplish it. I wonder if a locomotive was present?
If not, that would be very interesting, as a model train layout without a locomotive would be about as useful as Alex Hunter as a district atty. Moo.

UKGuy said:

wengr,
The only reference to "train" is that, on returning from the White's, JR and BR played with a train set or something in the "Train Room"?

If the marks were indeed caused by the train track, then this adds something different to the mix. Since it might put JonBenet down in the basement prior to her being assaulted?

So why would anyone whack JonBenet with a train specific to the train-room?

It seems divorced from her initial assault and asphyxiation?


.

Click to expand...

Hello UKG, I'm wondering if it was the initial assault.

I have often wondered if JonBenet was maybe just dropped and landed on the floor causing the injury to her head. IDK but have thought that was also possible.

wengr said:

Hello UKG, I'm wondering if it was the initial assault.

Click to expand...

wengr,
Why would BR need to assault JonBenet in such a manner? Where does it fit in with the sexual assault?


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UKGuy said:

wengr,
Why would BR need to assault JonBenet in such a manner? Where does it fit in with the sexual assault?


.

Click to expand...

What if the initial assault was nothing more than a violent "don't touch my stuff", lashing out by BR?
Unfortunately, the island of privacy makes it impossible to discern if there was a recent history of violence toward JB.
In addition to the prior golf club incident of course.
So maybe the bash was unrelated to sexual assualt, and the response became what it was because of the parental foreknowledge of prior sexual assualt?

wengr said:

What if the initial assault was nothing more than a violent "don't touch my stuff", lashing out by BR?
Unfortunately, the island of privacy makes it impossible to discern if there was a recent history of violence toward JB.
In addition to the prior golf club incident of course.
So maybe the bash was unrelated to sexual assualt, and the response became what it was because of the parental foreknowledge of prior sexual assualt?

Click to expand...

wengr,
Well many assume the sexual assault was prior to the whack on the head, they could be independent events, which we are making linear.

But the train track seems to fit the bill for the marks on her body, how about if the train was in BR's bedroom?


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Could be UKG. Could have occured elsewhere. At this point I'm just considering the possibility that something like this is responsible for the skull damage. Note the curvature of the cab roof:
P.S. The first pic also shows the type of track that Mr. Kolar has put forth as the possible source of the "stungun" marks.

Or perhaps, Burke, in the Basement, with the Train toy.....?

From this thread reply:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8177166&postcount=278"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8177166&postcount=278[/ame]


'ILikeToBendPages' already ponders this important and relevant question -

"John talks about Burke's intent and focus of putting together and completing the present before he went to bed. Did JonBenet make Burke mad in the basement over his trains and he bashed her in the head?"

Good question.

And, From this thread reply:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6911432&postcount=14"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6911432&postcount=14[/ame]


Eileenhawkeye comments:

Linda Wilcox, former housekeeper for the Ramseys, gave an interview where she revealed some interesting things about the family dynamic:

Linda Wilcox quote:
"...It's a wine cellar, that's what it was built as. It has no windows, I mean, it was a wine cellar. The last time I was in that room, there was nothing in it, it was bare. It wasn't used for storage, it wasn't used for anything. It was very damp, anything you put in there got kinda moldy, nothing was in that room. It wasn't necessarily hidden but it wasn't in plain view. And the room leading to it was the boiler room. It was kind of open but it was very dark. No one was ever down there much except maybe Burke. Burke was there occasionally. He had his train set down there. He was the only one who played down there. Patsy hardly ever went down there. She'd go down to get whatever she needed, she didn't like to go down there. It freaked JonBenet out. It was cold, it was damp, it was cluttered, it was dark. Pretty much the household help were the only ones who went down there. In fact, I'm the one who discovered the safe. Patsy didn't know it was there..."

Another Linda Wilcox Quote:
"...And then, Burke, his friends were his world. He kind of lived in his own world. Basically he had this whole group of friends and they had sleepovers. JonBenet never had sleepovers. She slept at her friend's houses occasionally but it was never reciprocated. I thought that was kind of odd..."

A heavy train toy? A bat? A golf club? Either one will do just fine:
Even a remote control.....

http://washingtonexaminer.com/parents-most-likely-perpetrators-in-child-killings/article/400346

"...Experts say the youngest children are the most vulnerable. Homicide is the third-leading cause of death for children age 4 and younger, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

...If you hit a newborn, you're going to do a lot more damage than if you hit a teenager," Hafemeister said.

With young children, even innocuous objects can prove deadly. Vanesa Patricio-Cruz, the Sterling woman charged in her daughter's 2005 death, admitted to investigators that she struck the child's head with a remote control, court documents say.

Cole said increasing awareness about child abuse and providing support for parents is crucial in preventing deaths..."
___

As for how strong he had to be, or how much force it would have taken him to cause the skull fracture to her head:

Blow to Head With Child-Sized Golf Club Kills Boy, 7, in Michigan
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,418904,00.html

"Police say a 7-year-old boy has died after a friend accidentally struck his head with a child-sized golf club.

Michigan State Police Capt. Harold Love says it happened Friday evening in Holly, an Oakland County village about 40 miles northwest of Detroit.

The victim was playing at the home of the 7-year-old friend while the other boy's father was doing yard work.

As the man walked into his garage to get something, the boys got too close as they swung the clubs.

Love told the Detroit Free Press that the man heard a noise, ran back out and saw the victim lying unconscious on the ground. The man took the boy to nearby Genesys Regional Medical Center in Grand Blanc, where the child died."
__

Both boys were only 7-years old, and the item was a child-size golf club accidentally swung too close by one child to the other. That's all it took.

In JBR's case, whether it was with a steam lionel train, or a bat, or a golf club, or a flashlight, it doesn't take much (weight, force, pressure, or effort) to permanently injure or kill a 6-year old, especially with a blow to the head, and even by another child, whether the same age, or a little older, or "frail", as the naysayers even call him (which he was not).

I see a perfect storm for a sibling fight, testimony that verifies incidences of ongoing sibling rivalry, secrets and inappropriate situations, and ultimately a cover up of an irreversible, extremely embarrassing, unexplainable, and unacceptable situation for this particular family.

SweetT said:

I have often wondered if JonBenet was maybe just dropped and landed on the floor causing the injury to her head. IDK but have thought that was also possible.

Click to expand...

NO WAY would a fracture of that magnitude have happened from JB being dropped or falling to the floor. She'd have had to be dropped from the roof or even higher, and even then there would be a different kind of injury because a body wouldn't land on that part of the skull or even on the head at all. This was exactly what the coroner said it was- blunt force trauma. She was bashed on the head.
There is so much we do not know about what happened, that when there are things we DO know I am always surprised when it seems so hard to accept. It is simple physics, really. To make a hole like that a certain amount of force has to be applied against a stationary object (JB's skull). You also have to figure in JB's height and weight. At her weight, there is absolutely no way her skull would be punctured with a DEPRESSED fracture like that and a crack half way around by her falling or being dropped to the floor. Or being slammed into a wall or floor. Could that cause a skull fracture? Of course- but not THAT skull fracture.

DeeDee249 said:

NO WAY would a fracture of that magnitude have happened from JB being dropped or falling to the floor. She'd have had to be dropped from the roof or even higher, and even then there would be a different kind of injury because a body wouldn't land on that part of the skull or even on the head at all. This was exactly what the coroner said it was- blunt force trauma. She was bashed on the head.
There is so much we do not know about what happened, that when there are things we DO know I am always surprised when it seems so hard to accept. It is simple physics, really. To make a hole like that a certain amount of force has to be applied against a stationary object (JB's skull). You also have to figure in JB's height and weight. At her weight, there is absolutely no way her skull would be punctured with a DEPRESSED fracture like that and a crack half way around by her falling or being dropped to the floor. Or being slammed into a wall or floor. Could that cause a skull fracture? Of course- but not THAT skull fracture.

Click to expand...

For the most part I would tend to agree. I do think however that it is within the realm of possibility although it would be a somewhat freak occurance. What I do wonder in relation to the plausibility of a head hits immovable object scenario is: It seems to be considered possible by Steve Thomas in his theory. However, I have to expect that Mr. Thomas spent considerable time in the bathroom, and elsewhere in the house looking at fixtures and features in an attempt to find what caused that damage. I think they should have found it. The fixtures are there. It is a very distinct shape. Leads me to think that the weapon walked with the rest of the rope, or later in the golf bag or who knows when.

The shape of the skull fracture, in my amateur assessment, appears to have been made by some curved item--perhaps a golf club, although the curved top of the locomotive is a distinct possibility.

What is the theory regarding the "stun gun" marks? If they were made with part of the train track, why? Does Kolar suspect JBR was laying on the track at one point?

midwestphd said:

What is the theory regarding the "stun gun" marks? If they were made with part of the train track, why? Does Kolar suspect JBR was laying on the track at one point?

Click to expand...

I don't see how the track could be responsible unless JB was "stabbed with it". Can't recall to what extent Kolar describes the methodology if at all.

midwestphd said:

The shape of the skull fracture, in my amateur assessment, appears to have been made by some curved item--perhaps a golf club, although the curved top of the locomotive is a distinct possibility.

What is the theory regarding the "stun gun" marks? If they were made with part of the train track, why? Does Kolar suspect JBR was laying on the track at one point?

Click to expand...

One of the major problems we have is that there was simply no way to do more thorough determination as to what may have made those marks. Keep in mind that the WRITTEN autopsy report states ONLY what the coroner sees or finds. That is why her jewelry is described as "yellow metal" rather than 14K gold. The coroner SEES yellow metal, but until it is tested it cannot be stated that it is 14K gold. It is the same with the marks. They APPEAR like circular abrasions and that is what he states. However, to me, the circular shape alone is indicative of something that had been pressed against her skin, rather than abrasions that are scrapes, like being dragged along a floor, etc. A coroner can give his OPINIONS, off or on the record, VERBALLY- this is what he did with the evidence of digital penetration. He SAW injuries- eroded hymen, blood, bruising. The autopsy alone did not reveal what made them, but Mayer told police present at the autopsy that he saw evidence of digital penetration. It is not the coroner's job to solve the crime. But in this case, he could have been asked to TRY to determine what made the marks- are they burns? They look like it- and that is easy to determine if you test the skin. He did not. Could the train tracks be matched against the marks right on the body? Sure- but this was not done, and the coroner refused the police request to keep the body longer in case there were any more questions. The DA refused to allow it, saying the police wanted to "hold the body for ransom until the parents cooperated. NOT TRUE- the parents weren't even interviewed for MANY months. That just wouldn't have happened.

SweetT said:

I have often wondered if JonBenet was maybe just dropped and landed on the floor causing the injury to her head. IDK but have thought that was also possible.

Click to expand...

The crux of the case, is that there was a cover ip. There is no reason what so ever to cover up an accident. Accidents occur every day. This was a deliberate act and 'staged' to appear to be something different than what it was.

I think I know when the train tracks were applied. First came the sexual assault, then the scream, then the head bash. JB is rendered unconscious and bro pokes the train track into her HARD to see if there is any response.
Just my own opinion, naturally...

Rashi'sDaughter said:

I think I know when the train tracks were applied. First came the sexual assault, then the scream, then the head bash. JB is rendered unconscious and bro pokes the train track into her HARD to see if there is any response.
Just my own opinion, naturally...

Click to expand...

That has been my theory, he poked her to see if she was alive.

Interesting to know WHICH TOP has the holes corresponding with train track: white shirt in which JB has been found or red turtleneck laying on bathroom top????

If neither then
- at the time of the head trauma, JB was naked or;
- we have no prevy to the WHOLE TRUTH of evidences.

jmo